Muggers - Fry 'em.

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A Victim Treats His Mugger Right

Julio Diaz has a daily routine. Every night, the 31-year-old social worker ends his hour-long subway commute to the Bronx one stop early, just so he can eat at his favorite diner.

But one night last month, as Diaz stepped off the No. 6 train and onto a nearly empty platform, his evening took an unexpected turn.
He was walking toward the stairs when a teenage boy approached and pulled out a knife.

"He wants my money, so I just gave him my wallet and told him, 'Here you go,'" Diaz says.


As the teen began to walk away, Diaz told him, "Hey, wait a minute. You forgot something. If you're going to be robbing people for the rest of the night, you might as well take my coat to keep you warm."

The would-be robber looked at his would-be victim, "like what's going on here?" Diaz says. "He asked me, 'Why are you doing this?'"
Diaz replied: "If you're willing to risk your freedom for a few dollars, then I guess you must really need the money. I mean, all I wanted to do was get dinner and if you really want to join me ... hey, you're more than welcome.

"You know, I just felt maybe he really needs help," Diaz says.

Diaz says he and the teen went into the diner and sat in a booth.

"The manager comes by, the dishwashers come by, the waiters come by to say hi," Diaz says. "The kid was like, 'You know everybody here. Do you own this place?'"
"No, I just eat here a lot," Diaz says he told the teen. "He says, 'But you're even nice to the dishwasher.'"
Diaz replied, "Well, haven't you been taught you should be nice to everybody?"

"Yea, but I didn't think people actually behaved that way," the teen said.

Diaz asked him what he wanted out of life. "He just had almost a sad face," Diaz says.
The teen couldn't answer Diaz — or he didn't want to.
When the bill arrived, Diaz told the teen, "Look, I guess you're going to have to pay for this bill 'cause you have my money and I can't pay for this. So if you give me my wallet back, I'll gladly treat you."

The teen "didn't even think about it" and returned the wallet, Diaz says. "I gave him $20 ... I figure maybe it'll help him. I don't know."

Diaz says he asked for something in return — the teen's knife — "and he gave it to me."

Afterward, when Diaz told his mother what happened, she said, "You're the type of kid that if someone asked you for the time, you gave them your watch."

"I figure, you know, if you treat people right, you can only hope that they treat you right. It's as simple as it gets in this complicated world."

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Or treat them to dinner. Different strokes and all that.

Curious as to what Lewkowski thinks about this.

Okay, this is cool. Not that I think that it'll work every time and for everybody - but still, gives one a warm fuzzy feeling.

Will probably last until Lewk comes along.

Ahhh, it is a feel good story.

I'm still waiting on when someone tries to mug me. I got a license to carry concealed just for this purpose.... but I'm curious when the shit hits the fan will I pull and fire, or hand over the wallet like a wuss.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

Or treat them to dinner. Different strokes and all that.

Curious as to what Lewkowski thinks about this.

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Nice story. Maybe the teen will actually view this as a wake up call, probably not though.

Ultimately it would be great if everyone would turn away from a life of crime if shown a little kindness, reality however is different. In the vast majority of cases the only reason a criminal stops being a criminal is due to force or the fear of force.

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Originally Posted by ImAnOgre

Ahhh, it is a feel good story.

I'm still waiting on when someone tries to mug me. I got a license to carry concealed just for this purpose.... but I'm curious when the shit hits the fan will I pull and fire, or hand over the wallet like a wuss.

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I would think long and hard about your motivation for carrying concealed, and what you would consider the proper usage of deadly force. All the people I've talked to, and all the books I've read on the subject say it's far better to part with the wallet, and what limited valuables you have on hand, than to shoot an assailant. Being wary of ending a human life over a couple dollars is hardly acting like a wuss.

I'd highly recommend you read In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection.

Cool story bro.

Nice to say that and actually mean it.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

I would think long and hard about your motivation for carrying concealed, and what you would consider the proper usage of deadly force. All the people I've talked to, and all the books I've read on the subject say it's far better to part with the wallet, and what limited valuables you have on hand, than to shoot an assailant. Being wary of ending a human life over a couple dollars is hardly acting like a wuss.

I'd highly recommend you read In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection.

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This calls for this:

Question:You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Liberal Answer: Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that is inspiring him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Is it possible he'd be just happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

Conservative Answer: BANG!

Texan's Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click........... (sounds of magazine being ejected and fresh magazine installed)

Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?

Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..."
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

Daughter: "Nice grouping Daddy!"

Lewk quoting a joke off of ebaums world? :confused:

Thanks for the story Enoch :up: This guy is the kind of person you'd want to see as a social worker. So, he didn't get hurt, kept almost all his money, did something good for a troubled kid, and has become a bit of a celebrity. Very impressive display of judgement, courage, character, interpersonal skills and perhaps also good fortune :)

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Ultimately it would be great if everyone would turn away from a life of crime if shown a little kindness, reality however is different. In the vast majority of cases the only reason a criminal stops being a criminal is due to force or the fear of force.

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Come on Lewk. Citation and reflection needed.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

This calls for this:

Question:You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

Liberal Answer:

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The correct answer is that the liberal doesn't have a gun but has the presence of mind to think, "This is just a conservative burrito-dream."

You think this story gets reported if the thief takes the jacket and runs? Just another "man bites dog" story.

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Originally Posted by Loki

You think this story gets reported if the thief takes the jacket and runs? Just another "man bites dog" story.

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This point is only relevant in a research/media-bias angle. I expect Enoch's purpose was not to make any sweeping earth-shattering claims about muggers.

But, because I am a curious mind, I'd like to know how many cases there are of potential mugging victims trying to reach out to their would-be muggers like this.

All this story can do is act as existence proof of generosity leading to repentance. I doubt even Lewk believed that this kind of act never happened.

"All"? Dude, it can act as inspiration, it can warm the heart, it can put a smile on Ziggy's harrowed face, it can help take some of the harshness out of excessively harsh attitudes towards/policies on crime.

Re. Lewk, what's interesting is whether or not this influences how he approaches this sort of scenario. Clearly it doesn't :o

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

I would think long and hard about your motivation for carrying concealed, and what you would consider the proper usage of deadly force. All the people I've talked to, and all the books I've read on the subject say it's far better to part with the wallet, and what limited valuables you have on hand, than to shoot an assailant. Being wary of ending a human life over a couple dollars is hardly acting like a wuss.

I'd highly recommend you read In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection.

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Enoch,
I have thought long and hard about my motivation. For the past two years, my job has been a fraud investigator for Delta. I got to see up close what criminals did to both corporations and to people as well. As far as I'm concerned, any criminal who steals from someone else using deadly force doesn't deserve to live. We had two flight attendants who were beaten so badly commuting to work on local mass transit here, all for an iPhone by a gang of young youths in Atlanta. People who use force to steal from others (aka bullies) don't deserve my sympathy. As I think about it, the more I feel justified in using a firearm to protect myself when someone uses deadly force to try and take something from me.

The law says I have to be scared for my life. If someone pulls out a knife I'm legally allowed to shoot them to protect myself. (at least in Georgia).

But when the shit hits the fan, would I still be able to do it. I dunno. I hope I would be able to. I don't have my Glock loaded with hollow points, I only have FMJs (so If I did shoot someone, it would likely only knock them down and not kill them) so it's not as if I want to kill someone, the Glock is for personal protection only.

I understand that I'm not your run of the mill person, the majority of my best friends and colleagues are either former or current military, law enforcement or criminal investigators... and since people tend to hand around those who are like them, perhaps it's just the way I was raised.

In Georgia, we have a city where every citizen is required by law to own a handgun. Kennesaw. Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Nice story. Maybe the teen will actually view this as a wake up call, probably not though.

Ultimately it would be great if everyone would turn away from a life of crime if shown a little kindness, reality however is different. In the vast majority of cases the only reason a criminal stops being a criminal is due to force or the fear of force.

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Can you be any more of a hard-ass ass-hole, while also claiming to be a Christian? Shouldn't you be extolling the FORCES of love, compassion and forgiveness, first and foremost?

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Originally Posted by GGT

Can you be any more of a hard-ass ass-hole, while also claiming to be a Christian? Shouldn't you be extolling the FORCES of love, compassion and forgiveness, first and foremost?

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He's empirically proven Jesus wrong in his mind, but yet man-made climate change and evolution are un-Biblical secular affronts and liberal lies that offend his Christian sensibilities.

Of course, the God of the Christians was a genocidal, women-hating ass-hole, so it's not like Lewk's disregard of a couple of throw-away Jesse quotes is any less theologically silly than female priests or wearing nylon clothing. Hypocrisy and cherry-picking are required components of religious faith, and I'm not exactly sure what makes Lewk's cherry-picking any more objectionable than that of so-called liberal Christians. Other than the fact that his faith is directly damaging to society as a whole through the democratic process, but hey, freedom of faith!

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Originally Posted by ImAnOgre

Enoch,
I have thought long and hard about my motivation. For the past two years, my job has been a fraud investigator for Delta. I got to see up close what criminals did to both corporations and to people as well. As far as I'm concerned, any criminal who steals from someone else using deadly force doesn't deserve to live. We had two flight attendants who were beaten so badly commuting to work on local mass transit here, all for an iPhone by a gang of young youths in Atlanta. People who use force to steal from others (aka bullies) don't deserve my sympathy. As I think about it, the more I feel justified in using a firearm to protect myself when someone uses deadly force to try and take something from me.

The law says I have to be scared for my life. If someone pulls out a knife I'm legally allowed to shoot them to protect myself. (at least in Georgia).

But when the shit hits the fan, would I still be able to do it. I dunno. I hope I would be able to. I don't have my Glock loaded with hollow points, I only have FMJs (so If I did shoot someone, it would likely only knock them down and not kill them) so it's not as if I want to kill someone, the Glock is for personal protection only.

I understand that I'm not your run of the mill person, the majority of my best friends and colleagues are either former or current military, law enforcement or criminal investigators... and since people tend to hand around those who are like them, perhaps it's just the way I was raised.

In Georgia, we have a city where every citizen is required by law to own a handgun. Kennesaw. Food for thought.

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You're misunderstanding my position, (in no small part because I didn't do a very good job of stating it). I don't have a problem with you, or anyone else carrying a concealed weapon. I carry one every day. I also don't have a problem with self-defense from a violent assailant. What I am wary of are street Rambo types that think carrying concealed make them invulnerable vigilantes. It's easy to understand. Owning, carrying, and being comfortable with a firearm is empowering. It's very easy to get carried away, and use the incredible power of the gun as a replacement for good judgment. That's now how it should be though. Carrying a weapon should ideally make you more cautious, considerate, and conscientious, not only because matters of life and death bear a far heavier burden of responsibility, but because being aware and judicious can often prevent a bad situation, or an escalation of force, before it starts. An ounce of prevention, as the old saying goes...

To mentally frame the question as, "I wonder if I could draw my weapon and kill a would-be mugger, or wuss out instead," you could be creating a very dangerous mental precedent. By pre-framing the outcome of the theoretical, (handing over a couple dollars and a cell phone would somehow make you less of a man or a wuss) you are creating a situation where whether or not someone lives or dies revolves around how much damage your ego is willing to take. Rarely is their anything more dangerous than an inflamed ego.

In the vast majority of muggings the attacker is not going to become violent, even if they are armed, and will in fact be more prone to violence if confronted. The best outcomes are typically to resolve the situation by giving them the valuables they ask for, (self-defense trainers often advise carrying a money clip with a twenty wrapped around some ones to give to a mugger for just this purpose) and trying to diffuse the situation. Each situation also presents a unique threat. A kid with a Swiss Army knife does not pose the same threat as a maniac with a machete.

It's important to know when you are willing to use deadly force, and for what reasons, because if you ever do have occasion to draw, or so I've been taught, it's not to scare off an attacker, or knock them down and wound them, it's to kill them. Any time your gun is drawn, the situation has automatically escalated to Defcon 1. In fact, if your Glock is truly for personal protection, you'd want to carry the most dangerous load for your weapon, because the only time you'd have occasion to shoot it should be to kill your attacker outright.

I know this isn't advice asked for, or sought after, and I'm sure it will be taken with a grain of salt, but as a fellow citizen who does carry, I ask that you treat this responsibility you've accepted with the consideration and forethought it deserves. If you really care about protecting yourself and your loved ones, read the book I suggested. It's not going to tell you not to carry, it's going to tell you how to carry responsibly.

I'd like to buy you a drink

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Originally Posted by Nessus

I'd like to buy you a drink

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How about I buy you a drink and be the DD?

There's being an incredibly responsible, well-informed gun owner, and then there's being a fuddy-duddy

On the other hand, I do like alcohol!

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Originally Posted by Nessus

There's being an incredibly responsible, well-informed gun owner, and then there's being a fuddy-duddy

On the other hand, I do like alcohol!

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Unfortunately abstaining, for me anyways, is part and parcel of being a responsible gun owner. And that also means I can afford twice the alcohol for you!

While an attractive prospect, it's a sad fact that for sober people drunk people become less interesting the more drunk they get.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

You're misunderstanding my position, (in no small part because I didn't do a very good job of stating it). I don't have a problem with you, or anyone else carrying a concealed weapon. I carry one every day. I also don't have a problem with self-defense from a violent assailant. What I am wary of are street Rambo types that think carrying concealed make them invulnerable vigilantes. It's easy to understand. Owning, carrying, and being comfortable with a firearm is empowering. It's very easy to get carried away, and use the incredible power of the gun as a replacement for good judgment. That's now how it should be though. Carrying a weapon should ideally make you more cautious, considerate, and conscientious, not only because matters of life and death bear a far heavier burden of responsibility, but because being aware and judicious can often prevent a bad situation, or an escalation of force, before it starts. An ounce of prevention, as the old saying goes...

To mentally frame the question as, "I wonder if I could draw my weapon and kill a would-be mugger, or wuss out instead," you could be creating a very dangerous mental precedent. By pre-framing the outcome of the theoretical, (handing over a couple dollars and a cell phone would somehow make you less of a man or a wuss) you are creating a situation where whether or not someone lives or dies revolves around how much damage your ego is willing to take. Rarely is their anything more dangerous than an inflamed ego.

In the vast majority of muggings the attacker is not going to become violent, even if they are armed, and will in fact be more prone to violence if confronted. The best outcomes are typically to resolve the situation by giving them the valuables they ask for, (self-defense trainers often advise carrying a money clip with a twenty wrapped around some ones to give to a mugger for just this purpose) and trying to diffuse the situation. Each situation also presents a unique threat. A kid with a Swiss Army knife does not pose the same threat as a maniac with a machete.

It's important to know when you are willing to use deadly force, and for what reasons, because if you ever do have occasion to draw, or so I've been taught, it's not to scare off an attacker, or knock them down and wound them, it's to kill them. Any time your gun is drawn, the situation has automatically escalated to Defcon 1. In fact, if your Glock is truly for personal protection, you'd want to carry the most dangerous load for your weapon, because the only time you'd have occasion to shoot it should be to kill your attacker outright.

I know this isn't advice asked for, or sought after, and I'm sure it will be taken with a grain of salt, but as a fellow citizen who does carry, I ask that you treat this responsibility you've accepted with the consideration and forethought it deserves. If you really care about protecting yourself and your loved ones, read the book I suggested. It's not going to tell you not to carry, it's going to tell you how to carry responsibly.

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That does make sense. While I can understand and support your reasoning of giving someone something of yours, albeit small, to keep from escalating a situation, that's just not me.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

This calls for this:

Question:You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner and is running at you while screaming obscenities. In your hand is a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?

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Simple. I look my wife and my two small children in the eye and then I shoot them. Then I let the thief go to tell his buddy thieves about me.

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Conservative Answer after waking up:

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Oh crap, I have to wash the sheets again :(

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Originally Posted by GGT

Can you be any more of a hard-ass ass-hole

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Internet hard-ass. Important denominator.

Enoch, excellent post :up:

Söze is here ?

:shifty:

Well people do call me Verbal Cunt :(

I see your original feel good story, and raise you Ogre's version of a feel good story.

With just as happy an ending.

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...comm_ref=false

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Anthony Miranda Tried Robbing Ultimate Fighting Champion: Police
First Posted: 12/ 5/11 02:08 PM ET


Bond was set at $350,000 Sunday for a convicted felon who chose the wrong victim on Chicago's Southwest Side this weekend: an ultimate fighter and martial arts expert.

The Chicago Sun-Times reports that Anthony Miranda approached a parked vehicle near 55th Street and Kenneth Avenue Friday night and asked the driver for a lighter before pointing a handgun at the man and demanding money. After the driver handed over some cash, Miranda reportedly ordered him out of the car -- which was apparently a mistake.

Chicago Police Officer John Mirabelli told the Sun-Times what happened next:

At some point, Miranda’s attention was diverted and the victim was able to grab control of the gun and the two wrestled.

During the fight, Miranda accidentally discharged his gun, shooting himself in the ankle, Mirabelli said.

The victim was then able to pin down Miranda until police arrived, Fox Chicago reports. He told officers he was a martial arts expert and ultimate fighting champion. Miranda was taken to Holy Cross Hospital with a "face full of lacerations," two black eyes and a gunshot wound.

Miranda, 24, was charged with armed robbery and aggravated discharge of a firearm. He was ordered held on $350,000 bond Sunday, according to the Cook County Sheriff's Office.

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Although the original story made me feel all warm on the inside, this story actually made me smile.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust

Well people do call me Verbal Cunt :(

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I don't think there's a person alive who would say such a thing.... everrrrbodiiie loves the zigster.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

I know this isn't advice asked for, or sought after, and I'm sure it will be taken with a grain of salt, but as a fellow citizen who does carry, I ask that you treat this responsibility you've accepted with the consideration and forethought it deserves. If you really care about protecting yourself and your loved ones, read the book I suggested. It's not going to tell you not to carry, it's going to tell you how to carry responsibly.

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And BTW, I asked the local library to get this book in. I do plan on reading it.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Can you be any more of a hard-ass ass-hole, while also claiming to be a Christian? Shouldn't you be extolling the FORCES of love, compassion and forgiveness, first and foremost?

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I was asked my opinion. I view this forum as a place to discuss politics. Therefore I view everything posted (at least under debate and discussion) is related to politics. The guy in the story did good, no question about it. However his approach will not solve crime. More armed individuals shooting people who attempt to rob them will cause crime to go down. More dead criminals will cause crime to go down. If they were moral and upstanding people they wouldn't be attempting to mug people now would they?

It goes back tot he basic belief system I have revolving around criminals. Morality plays on them in most cases won't work because if they were moral they wouldn't be a criminal. FYI I am talking about crimes against other people, if you want to do drugs knock yourself out, I don't classify you as an immoral criminal. However if you steal, rape murder then obviously you lack morals. If you lack morals how likely is it for you not to be a criminal because you heard a moral argument? Very slim.

The only thing that prevents immoral criminals from committing crimes is fear or removing them from the general population. Fear of consequences is not just fear of government penalties but actual potential harm from the victims defending themselves.

So long story short: Nice story but the world would be a safer place if he ventilated the mugger. Objectively speaking its obvious societies best interest is for the would be mugger to be killed however I do recognize that very few people would actually pull the trigger. Since I don't even own a gun the situation would never come up for me so I'm not trying to be a "hard ass" or any of that nonsense. I am consistently applying my world view on what prevents further crimes.

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Originally Posted by ImAnOgre

I see your original feel good story, and raise you Ogre's version of a feel good story.

With just as happy an ending.

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...comm_ref=false



Although the original story made me feel all warm on the inside, this story actually made me smile.

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Awesome story. :)

Only thing that would make it better if he had also been charged with attempted murder. The gun went off, seems like a clear case of attempted murder. And besides what jury is going to return a non-guilty verdict regardless of weather he formed intent to murder or if went off accidentally. The guy deserves to be in prison, and the longer the sentence the better.