Kim Jong Il Dead -- Good Riddance

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North Korean leader Kim Jong Il, 69, has died

http://analytics.apnewsregistry.com/...1Z/E/prod/AT/A SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- Kim Jong Il, North Korea's mercurial and enigmatic leader, has died. He was 69.

Kim's death was announced Monday by state television from the North Korean capital, Pyongyang.

Kim is believed to have suffered a stroke in 2008 but appeared relatively vigorous in photos and video from recent trips to China and Russia and in numerous trips around the country carefully documented by state media.

The leader, reputed to have had a taste for cigars, cognac and gourmet cuisine, was believed to have had diabetes and heart disease.
The news came as North Korea prepared for a hereditary succession. Kim Jong Il inherited power after his father, revered North Korean founder Kim Il Sung, died in 1994.

In September 2010, Kim Jong Il unveiled his third son, the twenty-something Kim Jong Un, as his successor, putting him in high-ranking posts.
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2011 has been a great year for dictators, that's for sure.

Yeah, but it's not likely NK is transitioning to democracy. Same old, same old. My only hope is that there is a smooth transition of power to his son; a chaotic N. Korea is worse than a despotic one.

Wonder how true the rumors are that his son is just as, or more, insane...

Who wants to take bets on Team America showing up on sale online tomorrow?

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Yeah, but it's not likely NK is transitioning to democracy. Same old, same old.

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You can kill the Stalin, but can't kill the stalinism in the system?

So long Kim.

Thanks for the good times.

:heart:

Well, if this transition succeeds North Korea has cemented its status as a hereditary monarchy. Which is interesting, sort of.

Kim Jong-Il Dead? Make your mind up, is he ill or dead. ;)

I agree Good Riddance.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

Yeah, but it's not likely NK is transitioning to democracy. Same old, same old. My only hope is that there is a smooth transition of power to his son; a chaotic N. Korea is worse than a despotic one.

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Don't think I can agree to that.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Kim Jong-Il Dead? Make your mind up, is he ill or dead. ;)

I agree Good Riddance.
Don't think I can agree to that.

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Isn't arguably a dictatorship more stable for the peninsula, historically? Governments often try to solidify home rule by foreign wars; reigniting the conflict with SK would seem like a tempting target to any inheritor of the "throne".

The diversionary theory of war has never been adequately supported. :o At most, governments divert by having limited used of force (e.g. attacking one ship, launching a few rockets, etc.). Wars are expensive and potentially destabilizing for dictators, and aren't always worth fighting.

The biggest problem with North Korea has always been the potential that its economy will entirely collapse leading to millions of refugees attempting to flee the country. Anything that lowers the risk of this event is good for long-term stability. Kim's death might worsen the situation in the short-term, but it can't help by improve it over the long-term.

Gaddafi, bin Laden, Kim Jong...
Wonder if we can get Castro before the years end.

Bad year for dictators:

http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/2011_-..._dictators.jpg

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Don't think I can agree to that.

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If the chaos led to democracy, I'd agree with you. But if it instead leads to military conflict or famine on a staggering scale, I'm not so sure.

Reuniting the two Koreas under a democracy is theoretically a fantastic idea - the grinding poverty of NK is truly awful for its ill-educated citizens. But the process is going to be fantastically challenging - far more difficult than the reunification of E and W Germany was 20-odd years ago. Doing so all at once and with no preparation would probably be a disaster. I would prefer more years of dictatorial crazy-rule if it led to a gradual loosening of NK's economic system and toning down of its propaganda. Slowly decreasing the state participation in the economy, improving education, opening trade and travel barriers - these could all conceivably leave a Kim in power for a time, but would prepare the peninsula much better for reunification. Combining the two countries without prior preparation would be a staggering and possibly fatal blow to SK.

So yes, I would prefer more short term dictator in favor of a potential long term managed transformation of NK. It's theoretically possible if China leans on them enough, and signs are increasing that NK's main ally sees them as more of a liability than anything else. Absent this, I see the alternatives to a fairly smooth transition of power to be extremely bleak in both the short and long term.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Wonder if we can get Castro before the years end.

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He isn't in charge anymore.

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Originally Posted by earthJoker

He isn't in charge anymore.

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President & Premier Raúl Castro

:P

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Originally Posted by coinich

Isn't arguably a dictatorship more stable for the peninsula, historically? Governments often try to solidify home rule by foreign wars; reigniting the conflict with SK would seem like a tempting target to any inheritor of the "throne".

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Never understood the value of "stability", if a nation is under the rule of a dictatorship - let alone such a terribly inefficient, incompetent and impoverishing one as NK then instability is a good thing IMO.

Gaddafi was "stability" for decades, same as most other dictators that have been overthrown this year. This year has been the most instable there has been for dictators since the fall of the Soviet Union. Great.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

If the chaos led to democracy, I'd agree with you. But if it instead leads to military conflict or famine on a staggering scale, I'm not so sure.

Reuniting the two Koreas under a democracy is theoretically a fantastic idea - the grinding poverty of NK is truly awful for its ill-educated citizens. But the process is going to be fantastically challenging - far more difficult than the reunification of E and W Germany was 20-odd years ago. Doing so all at once and with no preparation would probably be a disaster. I would prefer more years of dictatorial crazy-rule if it led to a gradual loosening of NK's economic system and toning down of its propaganda. Slowly decreasing the state participation in the economy, improving education, opening trade and travel barriers - these could all conceivably leave a Kim in power for a time, but would prepare the peninsula much better for reunification. Combining the two countries without prior preparation would be a staggering and possibly fatal blow to SK.

So yes, I would prefer more short term dictator in favor of a potential long term managed transformation of NK. It's theoretically possible if China leans on them enough, and signs are increasing that NK's main ally sees them as more of a liability than anything else. Absent this, I see the alternatives to a fairly smooth transition of power to be extremely bleak in both the short and long term.

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Managed transition would be better than an unmanaged one, but the current situation is so dire that it can hardly be worse.

I agree that NK is one of the world's most depressing and awful places, and it has a lot to do with the regime. I'm just not sure that a chaotic power struggle would be any better. I'm not sorry to see Kim Jong-Il go, but that doesn't mean I'm cheering for the complete breakdown of the NK state. I'm deathly afraid of how much worse it could get before it might - might - get a bit better.

I predict absolutely nothing at all will change with this. North Korea is a military dictatorship which has a sort of symbolic relationship with the Kim Jong family. The new leader will have little power to enact reforms in the face of the military establishment, even if he were inclined too.

Do you really think that the Kims are in the pocket of the military? I know that NK has a very opaque power structure and decision-making apparatus, but I'm not sure there's much evidence that it's the military that calls the shots.

No, like I said I think they have a relationship which works both ways. I just don't think one little boy is going to be about to change the entire structure of the place without the consent of everyone else in the power structure - especially the ones that have all the guns - just because he has been given some ridiculous title.

I don't think we can honestly claim to know, but I suspect Steely may be right. I think Kim could do changes in a minor way without rocking the boat with the military, it is only if wholesale changes were attempted that there may be some who resist.

I think I agree, but it's definitely a very opaque power structure.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Never understood the value of "stability", if a nation is under the rule of a dictatorship - let alone such a terribly inefficient, incompetent and impoverishing one as NK then instability is a good thing IMO.
Managed transition would be better than an unmanaged one, but the current situation is so dire that it can hardly be worse.

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Originally Posted by wiggin

I agree that NK is one of the world's most depressing and awful places, and it has a lot to do with the regime. I'm just not sure that a chaotic power struggle would be any better. I'm not sorry to see Kim Jong-Il go, but that doesn't mean I'm cheering for the complete breakdown of the NK state. I'm deathly afraid of how much worse it could get before it might - might - get a bit better.

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wiggen got most of my view right there. Essentially, I saw it from the SK perspective where any breakdown of the status quo would have serious consequences for the millions on both sides, not just those in the north.

Turns out the game Homefront was only a few days off on their prediction for his death.

Then again, with his health, thats like pointing out that a random person in a nursing home would die within the year.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Turns out the game Homefront was only a few days off on their prediction for his death.

Then again, with his health, thats like pointing out that a random person in a nursing home would die within the year.

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December 17, 2011 to July 29th, 2012 isn't a few days difference. :p

ah, all I remember was "in 2012" from one of the trailers.

I heard the son is being put on a special diet specifically designed to have him resemble his father even more. He will be feasting on roasted donkeys and indulging on lavish foods while the North Korean population slowly succumb to starvation.

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SEOUL, South Korea — The passing of North Korean leader Kim Jong-il has been marked by plunging temperatures, mourning bears and now, according to North Korean state media, by flocks of magpies.

Kim, who died in December aged 69 years after 17 years running the world's most reclusive state, was reputed to be able to control the weather, as well as to have scored a miraculous 38 under par round of golf.

"At around 17:30 on December 19, 2011, hundreds of magpies appeared from nowhere and hovered over a statue of President Kim Il Sung on Changdok School campus in Mangyongdae District, clattering as if they were telling him the sad news," state news agency KCNA reported on Monday.

Kim's death was announced on December 19, although he was reported by official media to have died on December 17 on a train journey to give guidance to his subjects.

He has been succeeded by his youngest son, Kim Jong-un, who will become the third of his line to head the world's only hereditary totalitarian Stalinist state. Mythmaking is a key part of the personality cult that surrounds the family of founding father Kim Il-sung.

Mythmaking for Kim Jong-un, believed to be in his late 20s, has already started. He is portrayed as the spitting image of his grandfather and has been dubbed the "genius of geniuses" in military affairs despite having no known military experience.

KCNA reported last week that a family of bears who usually hibernate through the fierce Korean winter had been seen lamenting Kim Jong-il's death.

"The bears, believed to be a mother and cubs, were staying on the road, crying woefully," it said.

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Even the animals miss the Dear Leader.

In some ways, NK is the coolest damn' nation on earth :up: these guys know how to mourn and to pay homage.

And when celebrities die in eg. the US?

*le sigh*

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Report: Kim Jong Un won't 'last long,' half brother says
Kim Jong Il's eldest son also says North Korea's new leader has traveled to Japan in the past using a 'fake Brazilian passport'

PYONGYANG, North Korea — Kim Jong Il's eldest son has predicted that North Korea's regime will "not last long" under the rule of his half brother, a newspaper reported Tuesday.

Citing e-mails exchanged between Kim Jong Nam and a Japanese journalist, South Korea's Chosun Ilbo newspaper said that the dictator's son described the country's dynastic succession as "a joke to the outside world."

Kim Jong Nam also predicted that his half brother Kim Jong Un would be "just a nominal figure," adding: "The members of the power elite will be the ones in actual power."

Kim Jong Un was vaulted into the leadership role with the death of his father, Kim Jong Il, in December. He had made his public debut as anointed successor only 15 months earlier.

His half brother suggested that North Korea's new leader, who is believed to be aged 27, faced many challenges.

"Without reforms, North Korea will collapse, and when such changes take place, the regime will collapse," the newspaper quoted Kim Jong Nam as saying. "The Kim Jong Un regime will not last long."

Little is known about Kim Jong Un's background and experience, though North Koreans have been told he studied at Kim Il Sung Military University and was involved in military operations such as the November 2010 artillery attack on a South Korean island that killed four South Koreans.

Among Kim Jong Il's three sons, Kim Jong Un is seen as most like his father in manner and personality.

Kim Jong Nam is aged about 40 and is known for his playboy lifestyle and love of casinos. He is believed to have fallen out of favor with his father after being caught trying to enter Japan on a fake passport in 2001 saying he wanted to visit Disney's Tokyo resort. Kim Jong Nam has lived in China in recent years.

"Because I was educated in the West, I was able to enjoy freedom from early age, and I still love being free," Kim Jong Nam reportedly told the Japanese journalist. "The reason I visit Macau so often is because it's the most free and liberal place near China, where my family lives."

According to Chosun Ilbo, Kim Jong Nam said his half brother had traveled to Japan in the past using a "fake Brazilian passport."

Chosun Ilbo said Yoji Komi, a former Seoul correspondent for Tokyo Shimbun newspaper, exchanged almost 100 emails with Kim Jong Nam between 2004 and December. They also spoke on at least two occasions.

Meanwhile, a senior North Korean party official dismissed concerns about Kim Jong Un's readiness to lead, saying he spent years working closely with his late father and helped him make key policy decisions on economic and military affairs.

In the first interview with foreign journalists by a high-level North Korean official since Kim Jong Il's Dec. 17 death, Politburo member and Kim family confidante Yang Hyong Sop told The Associated Press that North Koreans were in good hands with their young new leader. He emphasized an unbroken continuity from father to son that suggests a continuation of Kim Jong Il's key policies.

"We suffered the greatest loss in the history of our nation as a result of the sudden, unexpected and tragic loss of the great leader Kim Jong Il," he said in the interview Monday at Mansudae Assembly Hall, seat of the North Korean legislative body.

"But still, we are not worried a bit," he added, "because we know that we are being led by comrade Kim Jong Un, who is fully prepared to carry on the heritage created by the great Gen. Kim Jong Il."

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Source

Probably can't place much stock in what he says, it does sound a bit like jealousy. I thought it was somewhat interesting anyways.

I fail to see the difference between Kim Jong Il, his father and his son.

His son is way fatter. That's a difference right there. Also, Kim Il-sung actually looked like a normal human being, where as the other two are kind of funny looking.

Kim Jong Nam looks like a Benny Hill impression of Kim Jong Un.

So has the son official taken power here, or did Kim not put the proper structure in place for leadership to be passed on to his son?

He's taken over - whether he'll last is another question.

He's technically in power. It's unlikely he has full control now, and it's unclear whether he ever will.

Do we think his father the Dear Leader actually had full control though?

Yes, we do. I'm sure he had to consistently engage in politics, but that doesn't change the fact that he made all the decisions and got rid of anyone he didn't like without much consequences. From what I read, Kim Jong Un's uncle (along with military leaders) currently has more power than he does, and it's unclear whether he'd be willing to give it up (or be forced to do so).