Big Brother Visits Texas

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Originally Posted by BBC

Pupil Hernandez, who refused to wear RFID, loses appeal

A Texan student who refused to wear a badge with a radio tag that tracked her movements has lost a federal court appeal against her school's ID policy.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/image...34588_nisd.jpg

The radio chips track attendance, which in turn helps secure school funding.

But Andrea Hernandez, 15, stopped wearing the badge on religious grounds, saying it was the "mark of the beast".

After John Jay High School suspended her, she went to court and won a temporary injunction to continue her studies at the school, without the tag.

The federal court ruling overturned that, saying if she was to stay at the school, she would be required to wear the badge. Otherwise, she would have to transfer to a new school.

The new identification policy at the Northside Independent School District (NISD) in San Antonio, Texas, began at the start of the 2012 school year.

John Jay High School is one of two schools piloting the programme, which eventually aims to equip all student badges across the district's 112 schools with radio-frequency identification (RFID) chips.

The badges reveal each student's location on their campus, giving the district more precise information on attendance.

The daily average of the attendance is related to how much funding each school receives.

But Miss Hernandez said the badge was the "mark of the beast", as described in chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation in the Bible.

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Biblical idiocy aside, anyone else feel uncomfortable about this?

A good friend of mine whom I employed as a contractor a number of years ago was one of the first to pilot the software behind the interface for tracking and monitoring RFID tags. The main business he had for his RFID software was for baggage at airports, prisoners in prison, and firemen in burning building situations.

Now things like tracking baggage have an obvious benefit with RFID, tracking firemen in emergency situations is another obvious benefit, and I have no issue with tracking the movements of prisoners in prison - they have waived their normal rights.

But I do feel uncomfortable with tracking kids in school, just as I would tracking workers in an office/factory. I'd hate for my every action to be tracked; toilet breaks etc.

Perhaps this is inevitable? One day this will be the norm? It could be argued that it isn't too difficult to track ones movements anyway, through the proliferation of usage of electronic travel cards, credit cards, CCTV etc?

If they are NFC chips (seeing both terms used in stories about this), its not so much tracking as it is checking in for attendance. Its not like someone could sit and look a Harry Potter map of student movement. Not yet at least.

If RFID tags provided the precise tracking thats causes all this backlash and still fell within a school's budget, the library hasn't found it yet. Cause such a system would save a shit load of time finding our crap that gets misplaced. As I understand it now, with broadcasting RFID, standing to close to a wall could tag you as being in a different location than you actually are (imagine dealing with the classrooms next to the restrooms). Makes it a nightmare for libraries where the books and shelves are so close together.

Its been mentioned before that the school offered the student a badge without a chip, but only if the parents agreed to publicly support the RFID system.

Personally I think the school should also be supplying blocker cases or wallets for the students to use during non-school hours, but that would require admitting that the system isn't as safe as the school wants everyone to think it is.

If it is NFC, then the BBC needs to sort its reporting out. There's quite a difference between electronically checking attendance, and tracking / monitoring movement.

If it solely checks attendance then good idea. If it works like a GPS tracker outside school then no way.

RFID has pretty limited range, so I'd imagine it'd be tracking movement within school bounds only.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

If it solely checks attendance then good idea. If it works like a GPS tracker outside school then no way.

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problem is that RFID chips have rather poor security considering the importance of their use. and companies who use these chips would rather silence complaints instead of fixing the problem.

the school wouldn't be able to track outside of its scanners, but anyone else could if they had the right equipment and know-how.

But could it work with another systems RFID or is there security to prevent that? Eg say Starbucks installed an RFID system for their employees could they get school kids data or track the kids coming and going?

From the little I know, RFID tags are entirely passive, so can be tracked by any RFID scanner.

Tech is in its infancy though so I imagine it can be improved to be specific as its use becomes more widespread.

There are also active RFID systems.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Its been mentioned before that the school offered the student a badge without a chip, but only if the parents agreed to publicly support the RFID system.

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I'm a little uncomfortable with the system in general but the above just pisses me off.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

RFID has pretty limited range, so I'd imagine it'd be tracking movement within school bounds only.

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That's only due to the required power and gain of the sender/receiver, which in RFID devices is usually pretty low due to the costs involved.

I mean, you can extend the usual 10 meter range of bluetooth by several orders of magnitude just by using a high-gain antenna.

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Originally Posted by Timbuk2

Biblical idiocy aside, anyone else feel uncomfortable about this?
....
Perhaps this is inevitable? One day this will be the norm? It could be argued that it isn't too difficult to track ones movements anyway, through the proliferation of usage of electronic travel cards, credit cards, CCTV etc?

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A few thoughts:

A. Children have no expectation or right to move secretly around a school campus. I'm not sure why she or her parents or anyone ought to be upset about it.

B. The same is true for private employment, though it would TOTALLY suck to be tracked in great detail at work.

C. I fully expect this sort of tracking will be more or less the norm sooner than anyone would like. Hell our increasing entanglement with smart phones is allowing it already, and then some. I recall very recently a news blurb of some manufacturer admitting it was possible to remotely activate any of their android phone's cameras at any time as long as the phone's battery was installed. The same must be true of it's GPS and it's microphone and who knows what else. I for one have my phone with me almost everywhere I go, so.....

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

C. I fully expect this sort of tracking will be more or less the norm sooner than anyone would like. Hell our increasing entanglement with smart phones is allowing it already, and then some. I recall very recently a news blurb of some manufacturer admitting it was possible to remotely activate any of their android phone's cameras at any time as long as the phone's battery was installed. The same must be true of it's GPS and it's microphone and who knows what else. I for one have my phone with me almost everywhere I go, so.....

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There was a mob boss trial few years back that leaked info about it being possible to jack into phones, even when off, to record coversations.

EDIT correction: it was the Ardito case, and it dates back to 2006...

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

Its been mentioned before that the school offered the student a badge without a chip, but only if the parents agreed to publicly support the RFID system.

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Source for the second half of that sentence? I heard the first part before, but don't recall seeing the second, except for something about how if they accepted the offer it would have been implicitly endorsing the mark of the beast or something.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...nt-suspension/

The district, in a letter last week to the family, said it would allow her to continue attending the magnet school with “the battery and chip removed.” But the girl’s father, Steve Hernandez, said the district told him that the offer came on the condition that he must “agree to stop criticizing the program and publicly support it,” a proposition the father told WND Education that he could not stomach.

Thanks.

Schools should be able to track anyone who is on campus 100% of the time. Work places should be able to track anyone who is on campus 100% of the time. If you are tracked out of work or out of school well then hell yes that's a problem but if its within school or work grounds there shouldn't be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Source for the second half of that sentence? I heard the first part before, but don't recall seeing the second, except for something about how if they accepted the offer it would have been implicitly endorsing the mark of the beast or something.

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I wonder if she and her family have social security numbers. Everyone knows that's the true mark of the beast. Morons. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

There was a mob boss trial few years back that leaked info about it being possible to jack into phones, even when off, to record coversations.

EDIT correction: it was the Ardito case, and it dates back to 2006...

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Regarding "off" our phones are never really off, unless the battery is pulled. And even then if there's an 'emergency' battery for morons who let their phones go completely dead, it still might be alive. I have a motorola droid phone with a battery that can't be removed without busting the phone to pieces. I suppose if ever need to drop off the grid I'll have to drop it in a toilet...

That's why disposable phones are so much fun.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

A few thoughts:

A. Children have no expectation or right to move secretly around a school campus. I'm not sure why she or her parents or anyone ought to be upset about it.

B. The same is true for private employment, though it would TOTALLY suck to be tracked in great detail at work.

C. I fully expect this sort of tracking will be more or less the norm sooner than anyone would like. Hell our increasing entanglement with smart phones is allowing it already, and then some. I recall very recently a news blurb of some manufacturer admitting it was possible to remotely activate any of their android phone's cameras at any time as long as the phone's battery was installed. The same must be true of it's GPS and it's microphone and who knows what else. I for one have my phone with me almost everywhere I go, so.....

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This sort of tracking is already the norm. There are GPS units installed in cars, without knowledge of the car buyer. Insurance companies will give "discounts" for consumers who agree to "snap shot" supervision of their driving behavior, but haven't delineated who owns those "snap shots", or if they can be used in courts---either against themselves or other people committing a crime.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Schools should be able to track anyone who is on campus 100% of the time. Work places should be able to track anyone who is on campus 100% of the time. If you are tracked out of work or out of school well then hell yes that's a problem but if its within school or work grounds there shouldn't be an issue.

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What you are saying means that schools and employers are functional dictators? "On campus" doesn't really mean much, since students and employees often use off-site facilities to take a break. One case in point--truckers and truck delivery agents.

GGT - Are you suggesting schools shouldn't track the movement of students while on campus? I bet you also think schools should be liable if a student wanders off and gets hurt. And at the same time you wish to go against technology that would enable the school to track students very easily.

I really don't get why people have an issue with this. When your a child and at school the school needs to ensure you are there and where you are supposed to be. I don't get what the problem with this is.

Of course if you really dislike this... you should be in favor of school vouchers so you can choose to have your kids go to a school that doesn't use this technology. ;)

Too many topics in that post. Your bets are mostly wrong. Supervision and protection doesn't mean constant tracking. Preventing injury or harm doesn't mean liability law suits. Technology isn't teh evil. Schools that shun technology aren't teh saviors. Vouchers ---or homeschooling--- don't solve a damn thing.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Too many topics in that post. Your bets are mostly wrong. Supervision and protection doesn't mean constant tracking. Preventing injury or harm doesn't mean liability law suits. Technology isn't teh evil. Schools that shun technology aren't teh saviors. Vouchers ---or homeschooling--- don't solve a damn thing.

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Topics are quite simple. Tracking children when they are at school is good. However if you dislike it so much - support vouchers so you can have a choice about it. What is complicated about this?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Topics are quite simple. Tracking children when they are at school is good. However if you dislike it so much - support vouchers so you can have a choice about it. What is complicated about this?

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Tracking children is not such a good thing. Knowing if they're in the bathroom or cafeteria or classroom doesn't say much. Connecting that to "vouchers and school choice" is pretty stupid.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Tracking children is not such a good thing. Knowing if they're in the bathroom or cafeteria or classroom doesn't say much. Connecting that to "vouchers and school choice" is pretty stupid.

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Why don't you think schools should know where the kids are while on campus? What is the grave harm that this would cause? Oh nooo the teacher knows where you are... I don't get it. Other than this being some ridiculous knee jerk overreaction to being "tracked" there is literally no practical downside.

See my last post about RFID chips. I don't want to treat human children like domestic pets. Frankly, I have problems with the "Invisible Fences" meant to keep pets in the yard. I don't think expanding that technology to our human children is much better. Do you?

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Originally Posted by GGT

See my last post about RFID chips. I don't want to treat human children like domestic pets. Frankly, I have problems with the "Invisible Fences" meant to keep pets in the yard. I don't think expanding that technology to our human children is much better. Do you?

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Do you have any real reason you dislike invisible fences for pets in a yard? Or is it just some gut reaction you have? I'm beginning to think you make your policy positions based on random quirks in your intestinal track as opposed to logic.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Do you have any real reason you dislike invisible fences for pets in a yard? Or is it just some gut reaction you have? I'm beginning to think you make your policy positions based on random quirks in your intestinal track as opposed to logic.

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Invisible pet fences are transmitting auditory pains or tactile shocks through animal collars. It's a method of training that uses pain, while divorcing the human from that pain, so the animal doesn't connect the pain with their master/owner. In other words, if people let their pets know they were behind their pain....it would likely backfire.

It's a form of torture, IMO. This isn't just a "gut reaction". Pain is real. Using pain against animals we call our pets or family members doesn't have justification. Beating a dog to obedience just makes for a dog that can't be trusted around people.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Topics are quite simple. Tracking children when they are at school is good. However if you dislike it so much - support vouchers so you can have a choice about it. What is complicated about this?

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I was starting to worry we weren't going to get a village idiot comment from you on vouchers. Thanks for coming through :up:

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Originally Posted by GGT

What you are saying means that schools and employers are functional dictators?

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In a lot of ways this is more or less true. You have freedom of speech out on the street but not in the "work place." If I declare my local mayor is a moron and he has the police harrass me to shut me up, that's an illegal violation of my constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech. But if I declare in a meeting at work that my boss is a moron, my boss can declare I am unemployed and I have no constitutional recourse. Same goes with my where-abouts. Bathroom breaks can be limited to specific times of day (breaks) and specific lengths of time (15 minutes) and there's very little I can do if I don't like it. Further, my employer has every right to know whenever I leave the work place - remember time clocks? Clock in, clock out.... leave without clocking out, you get fired.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Invisible pet fences are transmitting auditory pains or tactile shocks through animal collars. It's a method of training that uses pain, while divorcing the human from that pain, so the animal doesn't connect the pain with their master/owner. In other words, if people let their pets know they were behind their pain....it would likely backfire.

It's a form of torture, IMO. This isn't just a "gut reaction". Pain is real. Using pain against animals we call our pets or family members doesn't have justification. Beating a dog to obedience just makes for a dog that can't be trusted around people.

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Ugh why are you so dumb sometimes? Animals are hard wired to submit to pain and defer to authority. I'm not saying you should beat your animal but this is another area of you not understanding something AT ALL. Why were spurs and whips used for almost the entire history of the world? Because animals respond to pain.

Furthermore ALL discipline is pain. Be it physical or mental pain.

You probably have never thought it through but when you say "I am disappointed in you" to your child, you are causing them pain. That is the use of deliberate mental pain in order to make the person confirm to your discipline. Saying "If you don't clean your room you are grounded," you are using your authority to inflict fear of a consequence in your child - ie another form of mental distress. Many people consider emotional/mental pain to be WORSE than physical pain when it comes to long term harm.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

I was starting to worry we weren't going to get a village idiot comment from you on vouchers. Thanks for coming through :up:

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Because freedom is idiotic. Because only rich liberals deserve to send their kids to private school. It public schools were so great why do so many limousine liberals send their kids to private school?