Body cameras on the Police

The Police in the UK have moved to starting to wear cameras on their uniform. This can be used as evidence and has led to an increase in early guilty pleas - serving justice, convicting criminals, while saving the Police and the courts money.
In America there are time and again lately complaints over the way some Police officers (I suspect a small minority) treat primarily black suspects. I saw someone on the American news suggesting that the Police should wear cameras which would show how they're interacting with suspects.

Should the Police nowadays wear cameras as standard? The technology is such that it can be done cheaply and effectively, as far as "rights" are concerned I think this serves the concept of transparency (both the defence and prosecution should have evidence to the footage). It will make relations with the public transparent, ought to put a stop to "he said, she said" disputes between good police officers and criminals ... or innocent members of the public and overzealous/dodgy police officers, depending upon your point of view. While if it helps lead to guilty convictions for guilty suspects then so much the better. As far as civil liberties are concerned regarding concerns over too many cameras, if a camera isn't supposed to be somewhere then surely neither is the Police Officer in the first place. If they have authority/a warrant to be somewhere then they should have authority to film what they're doing too. It will also demonstrate that Miranda rights etc are being implemented properly and can help with training if there are issues.

I don't see a reason not to have this as standard nowadays?

Departments that use cameras have shown complaints and use of force (both body and weapon based) plummet with officers that record their interactions. So the only reason I can see officers not wanting cameras is the accountability. Camera use is spreading, and I hope departments learn from the sneaky way officers disable their dashcams.

To be fair to the Police, don't put the cart before the horse. A camera removes uncertainty so doesn't just change officers behaviour, it also changes criminals behaviour too. An officer isn't going to be criminal himself if its recorded, but also a criminal is setting himself up for an easy conviction if he aggravates the situation too - so its in the interest of both parties not to escalate the situation with the cameras on. Plus malicious and insidious groundless complaints aren't made or can be dismissed out of hand if the footage exists to show its nonsense.

Might actually restore some public trust which is much needed as well. I think it's a major problem when the police aren't trusted, and there are already a lot of cases where bystander footage has shown what really happened. But that's often only taping the aftermath, missing parts, unclear, etc. So a body cam seems like a very good idea yes.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

To be fair to the Police, don't put the cart before the horse. A camera removes uncertainty so doesn't just change officers behaviour, it also changes criminals behaviour too. An officer isn't going to be criminal himself if its recorded, but also a criminal is setting himself up for an easy conviction if he aggravates the situation too - so its in the interest of both parties not to escalate the situation with the cameras on. Plus malicious and insidious groundless complaints aren't made or can be dismissed out of hand if the footage exists to show its nonsense.

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granted there isn't a set design, but from what i've seen most officer cameras are not go-pro levels of obvious. They blend quite nicely into the uniform and I doubt most people even know they are being recorded.

Even hardened criminals aren't complete idiots. Who nowadays hasn't heard of a Miranda warning? If everyone knew that all officers wore cameras, then I think people would know they're being recorded.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

To be fair to the Police, don't put the cart before the horse. A camera removes uncertainty so doesn't just change officers behaviour, it also changes criminals behaviour too. An officer isn't going to be criminal himself if its recorded, but also a criminal is setting himself up for an easy conviction if he aggravates the situation too - so its in the interest of both parties not to escalate the situation with the cameras on. Plus malicious and insidious groundless complaints aren't made or can be dismissed out of hand if the footage exists to show its nonsense.

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This is true. But I think it's just another point in favor of body cams.

I totally understand why cops wouldn't want it, and it's not just "to avoid accountability" - it's an invasion of privacy, and a show of distrust. I'd be pretty annoyed if my job wanted me to wear something like that. I still think it's worth it though, and I'd be cool with additional compensation for the officers to go along with the mandatory cameras - these things should drive down law enforcement costs, so we'd still be saving money.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

If everyone knew that all officers wore cameras, then I think people would know they're being recorded.

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That may be the case in the future, but we aren't anywhere near that point yet. You wouldn't believe how behind certain circles can be; even dashcams still need explanation and body cameras aren't nearly as popular. Wiki puts the US police force at over a million officers, but after Brown Obama asked for funding for only 50,000 cameras. I just had to explain to one of the sheriffs that does OT here how to retrieve her vacation pictures off her personal camera. Some people are simply don't get it when it comes to the march of technology and its an issue closely tied to conditions that are related to an above average interaction with police.

I'm a big fan of body cameras. I think the vast majority of the protests occur when the officer was not in fact at fault. Brown being one of the biggest examples.

To me the issue is being able to use that footage to get criminals convicted, that is a huge plus in my book.

If we can turn this trend of a growing distrust of an increasingly suspect police force then that to me is far more valuable than being able to bust a few more criminals. I can't imagine you'll bust many more criminals with bodycams.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

To me the issue is being able to use that footage to get criminals convicted, that is a huge plus in my book.

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Exactly! Even when the criminal is actually the cop.

Any criminal needs convicting whether they're a cop or a gangster makes no difference to me.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

I can't imagine you'll bust many more criminals with bodycams.

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As I said its led to a rise in early guilty pleas in the UK as you've got video evidence of anything the police have witnessed, not just their word for it (which in an ideal world will be enough, but in a court of law may not be).

In an ideal world that may be enough... but only because in an ideal world the cop would always be honest. While most are, the problem is that the ones that aren't are protected. As a result all cops are doubted, so I hope things like this will reverse that.

I think that was my point ...

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Originally Posted by Aimless

If we can turn this trend of a growing distrust of an increasingly suspect police force then that to me is far more valuable than being able to bust a few more criminals. I can't imagine you'll bust many more criminals with bodycams.

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Eh I think it will make prosecution far easier. Though I do have to laugh at the 'growing distrust.' Law abiding citizens don't believe the majority of police are bad. There will always be bad apples for sure but on the whole law abiding citizens respect the police. It is the folks who regularly commit crime that hate the police.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Eh I think it will make prosecution far easier. Though I do have to laugh at the 'growing distrust.' Law abiding citizens don't believe the majority of police are bad. There will always be bad apples for sure but on the whole law abiding citizens respect the police. It is the folks who regularly commit crime that hate the police.

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I don't think that's true. I'm not aware of ever committing a crime beyond speeding or jaywalking, and I don't have the faith in police that you seem to.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I think that was my point ...

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Sorry, I thought your ideal world comment meant that you thought a cop's word should be enough for the courts, not that in an ideal world a cop's word is true. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Eh I think it will make prosecution far easier. Though I do have to laugh at the 'growing distrust.' Law abiding citizens don't believe the majority of police are bad. There will always be bad apples for sure but on the whole law abiding citizens respect the police. It is the folks who regularly commit crime that hate the police.

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I don't believe the majority of cops are bad, definitely a minority. But if the minority gets relative impunity, then yes, that is a problem. Of course you'll always have bad apples, but an apple farm does check for bad apples and throws them away ;) (coincidentally my second worst summer job ever :p )

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Eh I think it will make prosecution far easier. Though I do have to laugh at the 'growing distrust.' Law abiding citizens don't believe the majority of police are bad. There will always be bad apples for sure but on the whole law abiding citizens respect the police. It is the folks who regularly commit crime that hate the police.

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You don't need the majority of the police to be bad to have distrust. You only need just enough bad apples to create uncertainty. And even if police aren't bad, there is plenty of room to think a number of "acceptable" police practices are actually not particularly acceptable. It doesn't take all that many instances of being "profiled" when you have not done anything to create the impression that it's less about actions or potential crimes than it is about invidious discrimination, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

I don't think that's true. I'm not aware of ever committing a crime beyond speeding or jaywalking, and I don't have the faith in police that you seem to.

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If an officer approaches you are worried something bad is going to happen?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

If an officer approaches you are worried something bad is going to happen?

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No, not usually. I'm also not black, I'm not in a financial position where a speeding ticket or a short detainment could mean not making rent or losing my job, and I go out of my way to be deferential. I also live and spend most of my time in a small suburb, and I'm relatively close with a deputy of our county's Sheriff. That doesn't mean I don't fear what a police officer who is having a bad day could do, even to someone like me.

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

No, not usually. I'm also not black, I'm not in a financial position where a speeding ticket or a short detainment could mean not making rent or losing my job, and I go out of my way to be deferential. I also live and spend most of my time in a small suburb, and I'm relatively close with a deputy of our county's Sheriff. That doesn't mean I don't fear what a police officer who is having a bad day could do, even to someone like me.

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The point being is that you aren't really scared of it because you aren't a criminal. If you were a criminal I guarantee you would have a different stance. I'm OK with criminals being afraid of cops.

Actually re-read what Enoch said, he didn't say "because I'm not a criminal" unless you think everyone who is black is a criminal, or everyone who could lose their job or rent if they get a speeding ticket or short detainment is a criminal?

The problem is when law-abiding citizens don't respect or are afraid of the Police. Non-criminals should respect the Police and not all do, that is a problem.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

The problem is when law-abiding citizens don't respect or are afraid of the Police. Non-criminals should respect the Police and not all do, that is a problem.

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Respect is a strange river: Not only does it flow down the mountain but also upwards.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

If an officer approaches you are worried something bad is going to happen?

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Yes. Caution and a degree of fear is a reasonable and proper reaction to an immediate power differential. You should also have that reaction to oncoming traffic as a pedestrian.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Non-criminals should respect the Police and not all do

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You just made every school administrator around the world cum in their pants.

Well, yes, they should be respected, but respect is something earned. Which is why restoring trust in the police is important, how else are you going to get respected instead of feared?

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

You just made every school administrator around the world cum in their pants.

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I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Semi on/off topic I went to the Conservative Party Conference last year. Prior to the Home Secretary giving her speech there was a guest speaker, a very eloquent young black man who was speaking about Stop and Search. From memory he said that he'd been stopped over 20 times. Was very moving.

Lewkowski seems to think the public should fear the Police. I'd far rather they respect them.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

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That employment shouldn't command respect. Actions should command respect. People should be polite, courteous even. But respect is earned.

I mean come on, you walked into an 18 year old joke

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Semi on/off topic I went to the Conservative Party Conference last year. Prior to the Home Secretary giving her speech there was a guest speaker, a very eloquent young black man who was speaking about Stop and Search. From memory he said that he'd been stopped over 20 times. Was very moving.

Lewkowski seems to think the public should fear the Police. I'd far rather they respect them.

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No, law abiding citizens should not fear the police. Criminals should fear the police.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

That employment shouldn't command respect. Actions should command respect. People should be polite, courteous even. But respect is earned.

I mean come on, you walked into an 18 year old joke

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FFS stop lashing out I'm on the same side of this argument as you :rolleyes:. I was responding to Lewkowski. My entire point was that the Police as a whole should be respected because they've earned that respect. I never said they should be respected just because of a badge, but was arguing with Lewk that the Police should be acting in a manner that deserves the respect of the general populace and not fear. That the fact that many perfectly law abiding citizens currently don't respect the Police is a problem that shows changes are needed. Are you seriously disagreeing with any of that?

I've been arguing against Lewk's Cartman-attitude all thread, can't you see that?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

No, law abiding citizens should not fear the police. Criminals should fear the police.

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No criminals shouldn't overly fear the Police. People react badly when they're afraid and if they do, they're more likely to react by attempting to murder the Police. Criminals should know that so long as they don't fight the Police that the Police will never hurt them because the Police aren't themselves criminals.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

FFS stop lashing out I'm on the same side of this argument as you :rolleyes:.

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What, now you're complaining after you did the same thing to Lolli? Congrats!

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Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro

What, now you're complaining after you did the same thing to Lolli? Congrats!

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I'm complaining if people have a go irrationally yes. The consistency seems to be certain people reacting negatively to a user rather than actually comprehending what they're saying. It's idiotic to have a go at someone saying the Police should earn respect, by arguing the Police should earn respect.

3 different people pointed out that the respect should be earned from your post, yet you focused on me, projecting much? No one is picking on you, but your mental laziness in this thread, the inner city and minimum wage thread has made it easier than usual to point out the holes in the logic of your posts.

If you're unable to properly articulate your position its not my problem, maybe if you hadn't tried to whitewash the issues with the police earlier in the thread so many people wouldn't have been confused by your comments concerning respect.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I'm complaining if people have a go irrationally yes. The consistency seems to be certain people reacting negatively to a user rather than actually comprehending what they're saying. It's idiotic to have a go at someone saying the Police should earn respect, by arguing the Police should earn respect.

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Maybe, just maybe, it's not us with the comprehension problem.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

3 different people pointed that the respect should be earned from your post

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I was saying it too. Show me what I said to Lewkowski that makes you think there should be unearned respect. Considering I was having a go at his notion that criminals should fear the Police, pardon me for not assuming people are idiots and that its fucking obvious that respect is earned, but if you want to highlight where I went wrong then I'd appreciate that.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

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Originally Posted by Enoch the Red

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

If an officer approaches you are worried something bad is going to happen?

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No, not usually. I'm also not black, I'm not in a financial position where a speeding ticket or a short detainment could mean not making rent or losing my job, and I go out of my way to be deferential. I also live and spend most of my time in a small suburb, and I'm relatively close with a deputy of our county's Sheriff. That doesn't mean I don't fear what a police officer who is having a bad day could do, even to someone like me.

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The point being is that you aren't really scared of it because you aren't a criminal. If you were a criminal I guarantee you would have a different stance. I'm OK with criminals being afraid of cops.

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Actually re-read what Enoch said, he didn't say "because I'm not a criminal" unless you think everyone who is black is a criminal, or everyone who could lose their job or rent if they get a speeding ticket or short detainment is a criminal?

The problem is when law-abiding citizens don't respect or are afraid of the Police. Non-criminals should respect the Police and not all do, that is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

maybe if you hadn't tried to whitewash the issues with the police earlier in the thread so many people wouldn't have been confused by your comments concerning respect.

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When did I try to whitewash issues with the Police?

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Originally Posted by RandBlade in the Opening Post

In America there are time and again lately complaints over the way some Police officers (I suspect a small minority) treat primarily black suspects.
<snip> ... innocent members of the public and overzealous/dodgy police officers ...

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Any criminal needs convicting whether they're a cop or a gangster makes no difference to me.

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I never said there were no criminal cops. In fact I said criminal cops need convicting. I don't think all cops are bad apples, but I've referred to the fact there are some bad apples who need to be dealt with from the opening post onwards.