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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oul8c16LzMs
Best part is when the citizen high fives the police officer. This is how its done. You can protest but you aren't allowed to impede traffic you little shits. Glad the police didn't dick around with it, they just came in took the idiots down hard and moved on. Took less than five minutes from what I can see. Sadly many cities don't really throw the book at fools like this but it would be fun if they got creative and denied bail for these clowns. :)
It would be a shame if protesters inconvenienced you, Lewk.
Yes it would be a shame. Why should protesters have the right to inconvenience people?
There appears in the video to be plenty of space in the sidewalk for protectors to gather, wave their placards and make their views known to everyone who doesn't care to listen without holding up traffic. You don't know or seem to care what the people who are commuting are doing with their lives... why should their lives and rights be less important than the protesters?
You've never seen a single successful protest, have you? There is no right to assembly if you shut down any path for its success.
Your right to assemble doesn't give you a right to stop me assembling or otherwise going about my business. Otherwise counter protesters are free to stop your protest and we'd just have mob rule.
Incidentally you have a right to assemble only. You do not have a right to success.
There's no right to never experience inconvenience, either. Otherwise my local highway authority would be up before the Hague several times a month.
Rand, you'd make a great tinpot dictator. Protests are ok...as long as they don't try to be effective.
The Highway Authority is actually trying to maintain the roads not just stop them for shits and giggles even if it may seem like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Glint
Loki and you'd make a good anarchist - or mobster. Apparently there is no law and nobody has the right to just go about their lives and can be held to ransom by every shit with a grievance or agenda.
Same story for roads being closed for bike races, food festivals or markets.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Or people driving incredibly slowly along the A595.
Also, prove it.
There were more police than protestors, severely overdressed, no recorded attempt of trying to have an actual conversation, the street was never actually cleared. If it weren't for the violence lewk would be bitching about the government waste.
The reaction should be proportional to the degree of "wrong-doing." And there has to be a reasonable process for obtaining protest permits. Given the choice between autocracy and a few people being inconvenienced, I know which I'd prefer.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Are you actually suggesting they should be allowed to block traffic?
Most places either exempt peaceful protests from traffic obstruction laws or require protesters to first obtain a permit. The latter can obviously be a problem when people want to protest the institution on charge of the permits.
I'm failing to see your point. Most places you can legally trespass as long as you don't make too much noise and/or impede traffic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
My larger beef is with Loki though and his thought process about allowing these kinds of protests and thinking the police didn't behave properly here.
Pretty sure Loki's beef is with you and your general anti-protest attitude.
You're allowed to impede traffic in some places, and in other places you're allowed to do so if you have a permit (in which case traffic is typically rerouted but people are nevertheless inconvenienced).
There are a number of differences between the two. I'm not going to list them all but right off the bat one involves forewarning of said event so people can make other plans are take into consideration their travel plans. Emergency service personal will also be aware and will take alternate routes etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimless
I don't have a problem with protest I do have a problem with criminals. If you want to protest in front of a Wal Mart and it isn't on private property and you aren't blocking the flow of people, go right ahead. Use your free speech! You don't have a right to block people from entering, use violence etc. I think a general rule of thumb for any 'protest' you and Loki should be allowed is, if this was done in front of an abortion clinic would you also be OK with it?
Having more numbers on your side seems to be a sensible tactic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Severely overdressed - what does that even mean?
What was there to have a conversation about?
The street was cleared in the video, the tram was blocked and after the Police moved in the tram was able to move again.
Every jackass with an axe to grind can not have free reign to bring traffic to a standstill.
Lewk that is quite a sensible comparison. I would object to protesters blocking the entrance to an abortion clinic as I suspect would Aimless and Loki. Protesters have the right to make their voice heard, not a right to change others actions by force. That isn't protesting that is bullying.
Surprising absolutely no one that you're this short sighted.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Not a single officer was dressed in standard patrol attire. Not every protest requires tactical gear. Only a few decided to display badges, I can't tell if their badge numbers were left visible.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Moving out of the street before some fool jacked up on adrenaline slams your ass into the pavement?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
The street was made passable, it was never clear, largely because there were so many police left wondering around with nothing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
not in the videoQuote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
Ah yes rushing in by yourself first only to be outnumbered would have been much smarter. Oh no it wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Riot police don't generally wear standard patrol attire. Why should they that would be dangerous and then you'd complain if someone got hurt it was their own fault for being underdressed.Quote:
Not a single officer was dressed in standard patrol attire. Not every protest requires tactical gear. Only a few decided to display badges, I can't tell if their badge numbers were left visible.
You don't think that was demanded and ignored before they rushed in?Quote:
Moving out of the street before some fool jacked up on adrenaline slams your ass into the pavement?
Other than maintain the free flow of traffic. Can't win with morons like you, what do you want them to bugger off before the traffic is cleared only to have it become jammed again? There's literally someone there guiding the traffic and waving through the oncoming vehicles when it is safe to do so.Quote:
The street was made passable, it was never clear, largely because there were so many police left wondering around with nothing to do.
1:45 onwards on the video. Tram on the left was blocked and then is able to move freely followed by a load of cars and two more trams.Quote:
not in the video
Is this generally how you converse with people? They say one thing, you hear another thing? Who said anything about rushing in alone? :bulb:Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
You understand riot police are actually regular police in riot gear right? Why would a group of this size need a riot response? Again, not every protest requires such a heavy handed approach. We've managed NCs from both parties without it as well as major sports games, and those have a much higher chance of violence.
The video doesn't show any sort of interaction between the police and protestors before the police swarm in. Its possible demands were made, we've also seen examples where there was no warning. You guys were taken to the ECHR when your spontaneous kettling trapped several people unrelated to the protest the police were attempting to squash.
You totally missed the connection between the overabundence of police. but congrats on finding that someone who made themselves useful?
Thats a bus over here, the tram/trolley/train/streetcar never moves. in fact most of the video shows the police pinning a protester to the ground in front of it.
It's called making a point. If they're over-manned you object to that, if they were undermanned you'd object to that. What precisely do you want? Is there a precise number of people that they should have had - no more and no less? How many is that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
I didn't see what preceded this so can't tell but prevention seems better than cure. If they're rushing in to clear a crowd that won't disperse then yes that sounds like the job of riot police.Quote:
You understand riot police are actually regular police in riot gear right? Why would a group of this size need a riot response? Again, not every protest requires such a heavy handed approach. We've managed NCs from both parties without it as well as major sports games, and those have a much higher chance of violence.
And? The video starts with the Police moving in. Presumably interactions happened first because otherwise it's a remarkable coincidence that somebody happened to be recording it.Quote:
The video doesn't show any sort of interaction between the police and protestors before the police swarm in. Its possible demands were made, we've also seen examples where there was no warning. You guys were taken to the ECHR when your spontaneous kettling trapped several people unrelated to the protest the police were attempting to squash.
Again what do you want? We have a number of people keeping the path clear and then somebody guiding the oncoming traffic. Seems sensible.Quote:
You totally missed the connection between the overabundence of police. but congrats on finding that someone who made themselves useful?
Oh that's just silly, its an intersection and the vehicles need to cross each other's path. Not passed an American driving test but I highly doubt it will be any different to the UK where you do not drive into oncoming traffic! They're clearing traffic from one direction while the other direction waits patiently. I'm going to hazard an educated guess here that once one direction had cleared then they'll stop traffic going left to right and allow the traffic going the other direction to start moving instead. That's generally my experience of how intersections work, the fact that the video ends before one direction has stopped moving doesn't mean the other will never move. :rolleyes:Quote:
Thats a bus over here, the tram/trolley/train/streetcar never moves. in fact most of the video shows the police pinning a protester to the ground in front of it.
your post breaks down into 2 parts, making a bunch of baseless assumptions for questions you can't answer and agreeing with points I made in my original response :up:
It is baseless to assume traffic shouldn't drive into oncoming traffic. Got it!
Maybe Randblade should promote a law in Brexitania where protests can only happen by the rules Government set. That should be ever so convenient.
No need, such laws already exist.
I'm a liberal not an anarchist.
No, you're not. You're a nationalist and a statist.
By believing in the rule of [pre-existing] law? Interesting theory.
Read Locke or Kant.
Good idea but if he kant I think we're outta locke
I don't think Locke was an anarchist either.
Enlighten us, should be fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
By opposing illegal liberal protest. If it was conservatives illegally protesting Loki really wouldn't have an issue with the police stopping them.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
the last time we talked about conservative protests were the tea party loons, loki wasted a good bit of effort defending the group as a whole while writing out the racists and morons as fringe groups (look how that turned out).
Now you're likely thinking about the Oregon fucknuts, which were guilty of far more than protesting, everything between b&e and grand theft auto. Thats a far cry from a van worth of people standing in the middle of a two lane road.
Tea party was actually an exemplary protest. They got their permits where needed, THEY CLEANED UP THEIR SHIT (almost no leftist protests do this) and they didn't do stupid shit like block traffic. And you know what? The Republicans smashed the Democrats in the midterms. Protests done right can be successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
As far as the Oregon fucknuts? I have no complaint about calling them idiots and useless morons that deserved to get shot. If I was calling the shots I'd of had armed forces go in far sooner. You don't have the right to defy the law of the land, they should have been given a chance to surrender and then taken out.
The key difference between Oregon and Tea Party? One broke the law and the other followed it.
The key similarity between Oregon and these yahoos in the middle of the street? They both broke the law. I'm not a complicated man. I believe in the right to protest I don't believe in the right to break the law for your cause. While I may not *support* leftist protests that follow the law, I would defend their right to do so.
Where I say Loki is a hypocrite is that he things illegal protest should be condoned because 'we don't want a police state' or whatever that shit means. Earlier I used the example of an abortion clinic. Same can apply to protesting other medical places, schools, or funerals. You don't have the right to impede traffic or business. Period. And a society that doesn't defend the rights of people to freely carry out their business is a society ruled by the mob.
Locke wasn't a fan of tyrannical government. The government has to live up to its side of the social contract. If it doesn't, you have the full right to push it in the right direction, using force if necessary. He would err on the side of too many rights rather than too few. And he wouldn't let laws get in the way of challenging a government acting inappropriately.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandBlade
You might have missed the root of the word liberal: it's liberty. A liberal supports maximal liberty unless there's a damn good reason not to. Inconveniencing people in the same way they're regularly inconvenienced is not it. Your insistence on order over liberty in all but the most extreme cases puts you on the conservative side of the spectrum.
You really need to invest in a dictionary. I don't think the word "hypocrite" means what you think it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
You've tried making this claim before and were called on it, why try again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewkowski
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3421585.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
See Lewk, not complaining about that while complaining about the current protests make you a hypocrite.
They didn't even block the highway and I don't think their protest was illegal... That being said even if you do find a conservative one that fits the bill - they should also be arrested. And for each one you find on the right I'm positive I can find 4-5 times as many on the left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki