Suicide Rate // Why so high for Transgender?

I recall in past discussions here that the high rate of Transgender suicides (and attempts) was due to the discrimination that they faced. However the board also feels as if blacks are discriminated against a lot and yet...

https://www.sprc.org/racial-ethnic-disparities

As we see here the black suicide rate is at the bottom. So is it that blacks are not as discriminated against as you believe? Or is the reason for the suicide rate among the Transgender population about something other than discrimination? You can hold one belief or the other but you can't hold both.

Context really is a concept you don't understand, huh. :donkey:

Discrimination/harassment/societal non-acceptance is likely a compounding factor, but probably a root cause in only a handful of cases.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Discrimination/harassment/societal non-acceptance is likely a compounding factor, but probably a root cause in only a handful of cases.

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For the African American community yes. Because while they may face discrimination and harassment, they don't have anywhere near as much social non-acceptance. They have welcoming visible communities to insulate themselves in while facing broader issues. This is almost entirely absent for transgender. I would expect the ostracization to have a much higher impact because of how much more thorough it is, and how much less succor against it is available (or visible to them even when it is technically available)

I'd say that the Body Dysmorphia is usually the root cause, or at least the depression and other psychological problems that usually come with it as a package deal. Being persecuted for having these issues just exacerbates the problem and makes it harder to deal with them in a healthy way. It might be that the depression is partially/wholly societally inflicted, but it's not clear how much of it is. My reasoning is that many people suffer persecution, and it can be just as severe as transgendered people face, and also lack support groups, but transgendered suicide rates are still higher. They're higher even when the support networks do exist for them, so it's unlikely that it's because of harassment alone. On the other hand, there are cases outside the transgendered population where harassment and persecution alone do lead to suicide, so we also can't claim that they're not contributing factors, and they are probably at least sometimes the root cause.

We're probably just getting into semantics though, I don't think we disagree on anything that actually matters. If you decrease the persecution, you'll very likely decrease the suicide rates.

Actually, I have no idea what Lewk's point here is; is he trying to excuse some sort of persecution? That discrimination against African Americans doesn't exist? Come on man, things are rarely so simple that you can blame exactly one thing for widespread problems.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

I'd say that the Body Dysmorphia is usually the root cause, or at least the depression and other psychological problems that usually come with it as a package deal. Being persecuted for having these issues just exacerbates the problem and makes it harder to deal with them in a healthy way. It might be that the depression is partially/wholly societally inflicted, but it's not clear how much of it is. My reasoning is that many people suffer persecution, and it can be just as severe as transgendered people face, and also lack support groups, but transgendered suicide rates are still higher. They're higher even when the support networks do exist for them, so it's unlikely that it's because of harassment alone. On the other hand, there are cases outside the transgendered population where harassment and persecution alone do lead to suicide, so we also can't claim that they're not contributing factors, and they are probably at least sometimes the root cause.

We're probably just getting into semantics though, I don't think we disagree on anything that actually matters. If you decrease the persecution, you'll very likely decrease the suicide rates.

Actually, I have no idea what Lewk's point here is; is he trying to excuse some sort of persecution? That discrimination against African Americans doesn't exist? Come on man, things are rarely so simple that you can blame exactly one thing for widespread problems.

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I like to keep people guessing sometimes. ;)

People identifying as transgender seems be getting easier, less open discrimination, more personalities and people out there etc. Assuming the trend continues, one would anticipate the suicide rate for transgender folks would be decreasing then correct?

Maybe, maybe not. Social media and other issues has led to an increase of teenage especially bullying in general. Or more specifically the amount of attention that such bullying and discrimination can happen. While previously it might only happen in public it now can continue in private even in your own bedroom via your phone or computer.

Suicide rates in general in the US have I believe increased by 30% since 1999.

If you want to know what points lewk is trying to make, it helps to go straight to the sources, eg. this poorly informed and not particularly bright article still being passed around on various sites eager to explain how white people are the only true victims:

http://thefederalist.com/2016/07/07/...iscrimination/

Self-evidently a mental illness that should be treated rather than indulged?

Nice . . . :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Self-evidently a mental illness that should be treated rather than indulged?

Nice . . . :rolleyes:

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I won't argue with it being a mental illness; transtrenders aside, it's just an extreme flavor of body dysmorphia, one of many. However, who's to say that the best treatment isn't indulgence? More importantly, who are you to say that indulgence isn't the best treatment? Pardon the bluntness, but the decision can't possibly tangibly harm you, so I can't see how it's any of your business. AFAIK the risks and downsides with any form of 'indulgence' are usually well communicated, and the problems aren't debilitating enough to remove the ability to consent, so the decision is solely between the individual and their care provider. Nobody else should get a say.

Of course they'll want to have a say. They want to protect the children, safeguard their tax dollars and guard against society's descent into total degeneracy. Not to mention own the libs and make them cry. It is a moral imperative.

I used to think you were the best of us.

I may be flippant but those are to the best of my understanding some of the most common arguments for why it might be someone else's business: protecting those who can't protect themselves, having a say in how taxpayer money is used (similar to abortion, contraception etc), opposing something that one is convinced is morally objectionable (similar to some people's views on eg. gay marriage) and, increasingly, to provoke liberals by exposing what one regards as absurdity or hypocrisy or just inconsistency (one objective of the article I linked to that basically expands on lewk's OP). I happen to disagree, but I think at least three of those are legitimate from the perspective of sincere believers arguing in good faith.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

I won't argue with it being a mental illness; transtrenders aside, it's just an extreme flavor of body dysmorphia, one of many. However, who's to say that the best treatment isn't indulgence? More importantly, who are you to say that indulgence isn't the best treatment? Pardon the bluntness, but the decision can't possibly tangibly harm you, so I can't see how it's any of your business. AFAIK the risks and downsides with any form of 'indulgence' are usually well communicated, and the problems aren't debilitating enough to remove the ability to consent, so the decision is solely between the individual and their care provider. Nobody else should get a say.

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For the most part I agree, I certainly don't think it should be illegal or anything. However as to how it impacts others? Well there are a few potential ways:

*Push for "misgendering" to be considered a hate crime (I believe it already is in one country)
*Requiring the state to pay for prisoners 'elective' operations
*How we should treat birth males who want to identify females when it comes to sports
*How society should treat medical practices that may actively harm individuals, for example if a doctor and a patient both agree that a lobotomy is appropriate should society restrict its practice?
*How to handle children who state they prefer to be another gender (allow surgery? allow drugs to prevent puberty)

So you're going to take away their choice because it might incline them to politically support causes you disagree with in the future, or because it might lead to questions you don't want to have to answer?

I'm not really sure I understand what you're trying to say. None of those things are natural results of an individual getting hormone treatment or reassignment surgery. Is this an attempt at a slippery slope fallacy, a gish gallop, or just random raging against the transgendered?

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Originally Posted by Wraith

So you're going to take away their choice because it might incline them to politically support causes you disagree with in the future, or because it might lead to questions you don't want to have to answer?

I'm not really sure I understand what you're trying to say. None of those things are natural results of an individual getting hormone treatment or reassignment surgery. Is this an attempt at a slippery slope fallacy, a gish gallop, or just random raging against the transgendered?

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What are you talking about? What choice am I taking away?

What are you talking about? How are any of those things harm to you that comes from someone choosing their treatment for body dysmorphia? If you're just trying to change the subject, at least be honest about it.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

What are you talking about? How are any of those things harm to you that comes from someone choosing their treatment for body dysmorphia? If you're just trying to change the subject, at least be honest about it.

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*Push for "misgendering" to be considered a hate crime (I believe it already is in one country) [Freedom of Speech Issue]
*Requiring the state to pay for prisoners 'elective' operations [Tax Payer Money]
*How we should treat birth males who want to identify females when it comes to sports [Fairness in sports]
*How society should treat medical practices that may actively harm individuals, for example if a doctor and a patient both agree that a lobotomy is appropriate should society restrict its practice? [Not actually an issue for me just listing it because harmful medical practices tend to get banned]
*How to handle children who state they prefer to be another gender (allow surgery? allow drugs to prevent puberty) [Doing stuff to highly impressionable kids is really fucked up]

Brackets one each item. To be clear I am opposed to any law that punishes adults from choosing to identify themselves as a different gender than birth and I am opposed to making sex change operations illegal. I don't know how I can be any more transparent on the issue.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

I won't argue with it being a mental illness; transtrenders aside, it's just an extreme flavor of body dysmorphia, one of many. However, who's to say that the best treatment isn't indulgence? More importantly, who are you to say that indulgence isn't the best treatment? Pardon the bluntness, but the decision can't possibly tangibly harm you, so I can't see how it's any of your business. AFAIK the risks and downsides with any form of 'indulgence' are usually well communicated, and the problems aren't debilitating enough to remove the ability to consent, so the decision is solely between the individual and their care provider. Nobody else should get a say.

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Is that aimed at me? I was quoting (and disagreeing strongly with) the article Aimless linked to. Hence the question mark and my rolleyes.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

*How we should treat birth males who want to identify females when it comes to sports [Fairness in sports]

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This is everyone's daily reminder that a dingleberry clinging to the unwashed ass of the most vile person in government is a superior being compared to what Lewk has become.

Placing his personal enjoyment of sports over the emotional well being of a person he has absolutely nothing to do with.

That a transgender female is a female or vice versa should not even be a question.

Whether they can compete fairly against those born female is a difficult question. But then we have it in ourselves to find a solution.

We live in an age of gender equality (or try to) but anyone who thinks its wrong to treat females equally because they compete separately to men in sports or go to separate toilets is a jackass.

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Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer

This is everyone's daily reminder that a dingleberry clinging to the unwashed ass of the most vile person in government is a superior being compared to what Lewk has become.

Placing his personal enjoyment of sports over the emotional well being of a person he has absolutely nothing to do with.

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Do you want to do away with women's sports? Because that's how you replace women's sports with transgender mtf sports. Testosterone in the early years will give someone a massive biological advantage.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

That a transgender female is a female or vice versa should not even be a question.

Whether they can compete fairly against those born female is a difficult question. But then we have it in ourselves to find a solution.

We live in an age of gender equality (or try to) but anyone who thinks its wrong to treat females equally because they compete separately to men in sports or go to separate toilets is a jackass.

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Do we have a way to solve it? One solution is to simply end sexism in sports and mandate no separate male/female sports leagues. But I'm guessing most people aren't gonna go for it.

Not easy but I would probably err on the side of preventing transgender females from competing the same as those who've taken performance enhancing drugs are prevented and for the same reason. Doesn't stop them being females.

If not being able to play pro sports is the sacrifice that has to be made to be recognised fully as a female I suspect most transgendered women would be ultimately ok with that.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Not easy but I would probably err on the side of preventing transgender females from competing the same as those who've taken performance enhancing drugs are prevented and for the same reason. Doesn't stop them being females.

If not being able to play pro sports is the sacrifice that has to be made to be recognised fully as a female I suspect most transgendered women would be ultimately ok with that.

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You know I'm not in favor of preventing them from doing that right?

"To be clear I am opposed to any law that punishes adults from choosing to identify themselves as a different gender than birth and I am opposed to making sex change operations illegal. I don't know how I can be any more transparent on the issue."

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Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy

For the African American community yes. Because while they may face discrimination and harassment, they don't have anywhere near as much social non-acceptance. They have welcoming visible communities to insulate themselves in while facing broader issues. This is almost entirely absent for transgender. I would expect the ostracization to have a much higher impact because of how much more thorough it is, and how much less succor against it is available (or visible to them even when it is technically available)

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In other words trans people are not just discriminated against, they often face it in isolation.

On a side note, middle-aged white males account for 70% of total suicides in the US these days.

Not quite sure what the debate is here...trans people suffer both quietly and openly. :wierd:

But whut do people think about pre-pubescent/pubescent children being given hormones to suppress puberty and facilitate a sex change? If we accept transgenderism as a dysmorphia, are we potentially mistreating with such measures by stopping physical development? This is something I struggle with.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Not quite sure what the debate is here...trans people suffer both quietly and openly. :wierd:

But whut do people think about pre-pubescent/pubescent children being given hormones to suppress puberty and facilitate a sex change? If we accept transgenderism as a dysmorphia, are we potentially mistreating with such measures by stopping physical development? This is something I struggle with.

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The debate that sparked this originally was the concept of suicide rate being linked to discrimination. Clearly the link isn't very strong so either one or the other item must be true.

Though it would be interesting to do a long term study among what treatment options led to what outcomes. And by outcomes I mean suicide rate, ongoing required therapy/mental treatment and NOT surveys.

No it's not remotely clear Lewk. You've not demonstrated it or responded to the rebuttals at all.

As LittleFuzzy said African Americans while facing discrimination/bullying from others have their own widespread support network and social acceptance in a way that trans people simply don't. You're comparing apples with motorvehicles let alone apples with oranges.

Secondly you've not responded to my point about how suicide rates have spiked for everyone in the era of the social network whereby discrimination and bullying can be fed directly into your home and doesn't switch off.

Far from being clear that discrimination and bullying aren't factors it is abundantly clear that they are.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

I recall in past discussions here that the high rate of Transgender suicides (and attempts) was due to the discrimination that they faced. However the board also feels as if blacks are discriminated against a lot and yet...

https://www.sprc.org/racial-ethnic-disparities

As we see here the black suicide rate is at the bottom. So is it that blacks are not as discriminated against as you believe? Or is the reason for the suicide rate among the Transgender population about something other than discrimination? You can hold one belief or the other but you can't hold both.

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The reason for the high suicide rates in transgender individuals is multiple of factors but two of them are the harassment and non acceptance. It's obvious this boosts suicide rates, simply compare suicide rates of kids who are bullied verse kids who are not.

Why do blacks have a lower suicide rates than transgender? This doesn't surprise me. For one their support group is much larger. They have a way larger and more expansive support group (Trump taught me to repeat points). So suppose they faced similar levels of discrimination, the African American community has a way larger base of people within reach that they can chill with and gain support from. They have way more idols to look up to, and to be honest are generally more accepted.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that African American face less discrimination (all things considered) than openly transgender individuals. I know that american society has an ingrained unconscious racial bias against blacks, and many police departments have a culture of racial stereotyping and racism; however, I think there is a very visceral social pariah categorization of transgender by everyone, pretty much world wide.

I will admit personally when I see a transgender individual, I have to consciously make a decision to shut down any knee jerk aversion and talk and approach them like they were anyone else (which I do). I know my knee jerk reaction comes from lack of exposure.



Side Commentary on genetics and gender identity:
I don't know if it's in our DNA that there are males in the male group, and there are females in the female group and like relates with like but transgender doesn't fit in either group. I wouldn't be surprised that if in nature transgender animals which of course there are face discrimination more than homosexual animals or off color animals.

For example, I was born a man and I know it's in my genetics to enjoy being man. Similarly a woman who is born a woman it's in her genetics to want to be a woman and prefer it. This genetically based predisposition is probably the reason for transgender-ism. They were born in one body but on a DNA level their brain was codified to say you identify with the opposite sex's clan.

Men need to prove they're strong, confident, independent... we have rites of passage. These are in our genetics and these customs will permeate all human cultures and likely many animal cultures.

There are rational evolutionary reasons for this.

Women have their own genetically based rites of passage and likely they deal with the social fiber of society.

Another reason Afrocan Americans have a lower suicide rate is they're far more religious, and their religion looks down upon suicide. Given how most religious groups treat the transgendered, it will surprise no one that they have a lower rate of religiosity.