WTF is wrong with the US?

The biggest economy in the world, with the largest military force, and the "leader of the freee world" defending democracy.....has become the viral epicenter of a global pandemic. First to fly to the moon, but now we're banned from flying to Europe.

We are pariahs on the world stage. Hypocrites to the nth degree. Millions unemployed, without healthcare, and millions of families (and children) facing hunger and homelessness. Education by Zip Code. (And don't forget the federal storm troopers.) With a congress that will take their August vacation despite the crises.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with us?

22 views thus far, but no replies.

Is that because no one wants to talk about WTF is wrong the the US or did I phrase the question wrong? Wouldn't be the first time I created a lame thread.

Maybe I've been too impatient regarding time zones, or how often people read this forum. Will check back later. :noob:

It's a bit of a vague question, there's so much wrong.

To be honest the leader of the free world and defenders of democracy was probably always more of an American myth that wasn't shared as much outside your borders, at least during my lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

It's a bit of a vague question, there's so much wrong.

To be honest the leader of the free world and defenders of democracy was probably always more of an American myth that wasn't shared as much outside your borders, at least during my lifetime.

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Actually IMO the US has held that role pretty much from mid-WW2 through the postwar period at least until the end of the Cold War. We started ceding the role in some ways in the 90s, but I think one thing about 9/11 that's underappreciated is how much it shifted US geopolitical behavior and thinking, with ramifications for how our role worked in the rest of the world.

I'm not saying that the US was always a force for good during that period, but we definitely led the West in pretty much any way that mattered, and had very concrete roles as the defenders of Western democracy through NATO and the postwar underpinnings of global security more broadly. All of that has been eroded to varying extents in the last few decades.

Well, it's just that defending democracy seems to conflict a bit with all the actions the USA did undermining democracies all over the world (including in the west). I'm sure the victims of all the dictatorships around the world which were propped up by the US greatly appreciated your commitment to defending democracy.

Leading nation of the West, yes, that I agree with.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

Well, it's just that defending democracy seems to conflict a bit with all the actions the USA did undermining democracies all over the world (including in the west). I'm sure the victims of all the dictatorships around the world which were propped up by the US greatly appreciated your commitment to defending democracy.

Leading nation of the West, yes, that I agree with.

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There's a reason for my qualifier of Western democracy. Generally anything in the Middle East, Africa, and southeast Asia was fair game in the context of 'containment', amoral as that position may have been. Parts of Latin America we also behaved the same way.

I am in no way defending the behavior of the US in the postwar era - some of what the US has done has been extraordinarily good, quite a bit has been pretty awful. But we put our military, economic, and political heft behind securing democracies in Europe, North America, and East Asia. And, by and large, it worked.

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Originally Posted by Flixy

It's a bit of a vague question, there's so much wrong.

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That's part of the problem, there's SO much wrong -- just read the thread titles here (or follow Aimless's twitter feeds). :bulb:

Something has to explain why the US has so many Birthers, Truthers, Q'anon etc. who continue to buy into conspiracy theories. It's especially bad when coming from the President and no one in his administration pushes back, but enables "alternate facts" and participates in the propaganda. (See the quack "doctor" Emmanuel for the latest example.)

There's also a large group of Americans who simply reject science. From Flat Earthers, Anti-Vaxxers, and Climate Science Deniers....to people who just don't believe covid-19 is a serious disease, that social distancing is BS (see the huge house and beach parties and packed bars), or that masks can reduce transmission (Gohmert). We even have physicians in congress who make false claims about immunity and vaccinations (Rand Paul).

I'm wondering WHY? It can't be explained by polarized politics or anti-establishment/anti-government sentiments -- that's been going on for decades. It can't be blamed on social media or internet news -- Europe has those, too. It's like the US is in a state of collective denial, or cognitive dissonance, or something. Was hoping to hear others' arm-chair diagnoses.

Having carefully considered your question—and all available evidence that pertains to it—I believe I can give you a definitive and exhaustive answer: it's demon-sex.

It explains everything.

Sounds like praying the gay away. Or thoughts and prayers after every gun massacre. :hmm:



I know you guys were trying to find the humor in this, but it's no laughing matter. Maybe there's some validity in tying our disconnects with reality, and wishful thinking, to far-right religious groups who identify as Republicans? Is that what's happening?

Or are we just a bunch of lazy, arrogant, ignorant, spoiled, first-world actors who don't understand civic responsibility?

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Originally Posted by wiggin

There's a reason for my qualifier of Western democracy. Generally anything in the Middle East, Africa, and southeast Asia was fair game in the context of 'containment', amoral as that position may have been. Parts of Latin America we also behaved the same way.

I am in no way defending the behavior of the US in the postwar era - some of what the US has done has been extraordinarily good, quite a bit has been pretty awful. But we put our military, economic, and political heft behind securing democracies in Europe, North America, and East Asia. And, by and large, it worked.

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Even in Europe, definitely in East Asia, that mainly went only up to the point where these democracies produced the results that suited the USA. I'm not denying the US has done a lot of good, especially in Western Europe, but I do not really believe that this came from a commitment to defending democracy.

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There's nothing wrong with that. Peace should be sought a d we should always remember the tragedy and price of war.

35 years ago Reagan went to a German grave with Chancellor Kohl and said the same thing. He was right then. We shouldn't be refighting the war 75 years on.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

There's nothing wrong with that. Peace should be sought a d we should always remember the tragedy and price of war.

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You don't need to use a neo-Nazi pilgrimage site to make the case for not starting an unjust and unimaginably cruel war.

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35 years ago Reagan went to a German grave with Chancellor Kohl and said the same thing. He was right then. We shouldn't be refighting the war 75 years on.

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The two are not comparable. Reagan's symbolic visit to the cemetery in Bitburg was at the behest of the chancellor—who also suggested they visit a concentration camp, a suggestion that was rebuffed by the Reagan team—and took place in Germany, as a symbolic gesture of reconciliation. Hoekstra's visit to a neo-Nazi pilgrimage site in the Netherlands fulfills no such function. I thought this clown couldn't debase himself more than he already had with the Islamophobia and the on-camera lying, but I was obv wrong.

I know nothing about it being a pilgrimage site, that's news to me. Who the f**k pilgrimages to that?

I just saw a cemetery with graves . . .

Wikipedia says nothing about it being a pilgrimage site, just that it is a cemetery. Considering the person who wrote that is Ambassador to the Netherlands, it seems reasonable to visit war graves in the Netherlands. Were it not for the fascist in the Oval Office I doubt anyone would blink twice had an Ambassador posted that under Obama or anyone sane.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

I know nothing about it being a pilgrimage site, that's news to me. Who the f**k pilgrimages to that?

I just saw a cemetery with graves . . .

Wikipedia says nothing about it being a pilgrimage site, just that it is a cemetery. Considering the person who wrote that is Ambassador to the Netherlands, it seems reasonable to visit war graves in the Netherlands. Were it not for the fascist in the Oval Office I doubt anyone would blink twice had an Ambassador posted that under Obama or anyone sane.

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There are Waffen SS soldiers buried in the cemetery, among others. I have seen it cited as a gathering place for neo-Nazis but I frankly don't understand whether it has special significance other than being a gravesite for Nazi soldiers.

However, it has generally been controversial for politicians to visit cemeteries of German war dead rather than cemeteries full of the victims of German aggression and atrocities. This particular cemetery was visited a few years back by the German ambassador to the Netherlands, and was criticized at the time as well.

More broadly, if one were to try making a point about the horrors of war, it might behoove you to choose a cemetery full of the victims, rather than perpetrators, of aggression. And, while you're at it, it might be nice to avoid appearing to mourn SS soldiers who participated in the worst crimes of the war. And it might be nice not to do so on an ancient day of mourning for the people who suffered most as a result of those crimes. (For the uninitiated, yesterday was the 9th of Av, the main day of mourning in the Jewish calendar. Among religious Jews, this includes mourning the results of European antisemitism, including the Holocaust.) The timing was... poor.

Thanks for the background wiggin.

Especially given the comment about a German ambassador doing the same thing, this seems more cock-up than conspiracy. The timing was poor but do you think it was deliberately so? Or a well-intentioned, but badly executed message?

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Originally Posted by wiggin

There are Waffen SS soldiers buried in the cemetery, among others. I have seen it cited as a gathering place for neo-Nazis but I frankly don't understand whether it has special significance other than being a gravesite for Nazi soldiers.

However, it has generally been controversial for politicians to visit cemeteries of German war dead rather than cemeteries full of the victims of German aggression and atrocities. This particular cemetery was visited a few years back by the German ambassador to the Netherlands, and was criticized at the time as well.

More broadly, if one were to try making a point about the horrors of war, it might behoove you to choose a cemetery full of the victims, rather than perpetrators, of aggression. And, while you're at it, it might be nice to avoid appearing to mourn SS soldiers who participated in the worst crimes of the war. And it might be nice not to do so on an ancient day of mourning for the people who suffered most as a result of those crimes. (For the uninitiated, yesterday was the 9th of Av, the main day of mourning in the Jewish calendar. Among religious Jews, this includes mourning the results of European antisemitism, including the Holocaust.) The timing was... poor.

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Probably not accidental in the sense of poor timing, and I'm sure the message is quite clear to those it was intended for. It's like Trump's "accidental" retweet of the old guy chanting white power: Bull Shit it was an accident.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

Thanks for the background wiggin.

Especially given the comment about a German ambassador doing the same thing, this seems more cock-up than conspiracy. The timing was poor but do you think it was deliberately so? Or a well-intentioned, but badly executed message?

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I am generally inclined to ascribe screw ups like this to sheer incompetence and not malice. However, Hoekstra has no shortage of racist 'gaffes' in the past, including in his political campaigning and public remarks. On the balance of probabilities it's still likely just a really boneheaded attempt to be ambassadorial but the benefit of the doubt wears thin.

Nothing like a pandemic to highlight systemic flaws, especially our decades-long history of under-funding public services like healthcare. And how a linear/asystemic approach fails to solve complex, societal problems that need a comprehensive/holistic approach. The Atlantic has a good series of articles related to covid-19 and "How the Pandemic Defeated America":

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ailure/614191/

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...sponse/608596/


I'm thinking there's something about revering the "rugged individualism" of American culture that's made us stupid about society's connections, our civic responsibilities, and the role of institutions. Especially tax-funded governmental ones. While we're arguing about Freee Market Capitalism vs SSSocialism, feds vs states, and Lives vs Livelihoods, the virus is running thru the country pretty much unchecked. It's like whack-a-mole meets Hunger Games. :picard:

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Originally Posted by GGT

I'm thinking there's something about revering the "rugged individualism" of American culture that's made us stupid about society's connections, our civic responsibilities, and the role of institutions. Especially tax-funded governmental ones.

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Rugged individualism is one of the traits specific to what I refer to as cowboys (just in case nobody figured that out yet) and yes, it makes us look stupid to actual civilized societies.

Well, you hadn't posted in this thread, but I know what you meant about The Wild West (and cowboy mentality) from other threads. ;)

I'm also wondering if this pandemic will *shock* millions of Americans out of their nostalgia for our cultural mythology. Or if bars, parties, and haircuts are still more important than children, or health & education. :bulb:

I was reading about Collective Narcissism and Ethnocentrism, which led me back to American Exceptionalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

Many interesting sections, including the "Frontier Spirit" (cowboyism?) but that's not unique to the US. Note the last paragraph:


Current official stance and its detractors

In April 2009, U.S. President Barack Obama responded to a journalist's question in Strasbourg with this statement: "I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism."^[100] Obama further noted, "I see no contradiction between believing that America has a continued extraordinary role in leading the world towards peace and prosperity and recognizing that leadership is incumbent, depends on, our ability to create partnerships because we create partnerships because we can't solve these problems alone."^[101]

Mitt Romney attacked Obama's statement and argued it showed Obama did not believe in American exceptionalism.^[102] Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee said that Obama's "worldview is dramatically different from any president, Republican or Democrat, we've had... He grew up more as a globalist than an American. To deny American exceptionalism is in essence to deny the heart and soul of this nation."^[103]

In a speech on the Syria crisis on September 10, 2013, Obama said that "however, when, with modest effort and risk, we can stop children from being gassed to death, and thereby make our kids safer over the long run, I believe we should act.... That is what makes America different. That is what makes us exceptional."^[104]

In a direct response the next day, Russian President Vladimir Putin published an op-ed in The New York Times, articulating, "It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation.... We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord's blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal."^[105]

Putin's views were soon endorsed by future President Donald Trump, who declared the op-ed "a masterpiece." "You think of the term as being beautiful, but all of sudden you say, what if you're in Germany or Japan or any one of 100 different countries? You are not going to like that term," Trump said. "It is very insulting, and Putin put it to him about that."^[106]

Some left-wing American commentators agree with Trump's stance; one example is Sherle Schwenninger, a co-founder of the New America Foundation, who in a 2016 Nation magazine symposium remarked, "Trump would redefine American exceptionalism by bringing an end to the neoliberal/neoconservative globalist project that Hillary Clinton and many Republicans support."^[107] However, Trump has also advocated an "America First" policy, emphasizing American nationalism and unilateralism, though with a greater emphasis on non-interventionism than imperialism.

American exceptionalism has been a plank of the Republican party platform since 2012.^[108] The current platform, adopted in 2016, defines it as "the notion that our ideas and principles as a nation give us a unique place of moral leadership" and affirms that the U.S. therefore must "retake its natural position as leader of the free world."^[109]



(see Cognitive Dissonance) :bulb:

Lebanon port explodes, hundreds killed, thousands injured. India airplane overshoots the runway, dozens killed, hundreds injured.
The US government expresses sympathies and promises aid.

Meanwhile, the US has seen 1,000 deaths per day for weeks, due to covid-19, but there's no government aid in sight.
American Exceptionalism my ass. :haha: :(

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/12/90162...ding-to-congre

Trump called Margorie Taylor Greene a "real winner"! :picard:

As I said here http://theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=7604 the horse is already out of the barn. Q'anon is now "mainstreamed". WTF is wrong with us?

https://filmmakermagazine.com/110124.../#.X0Bxah17mi4

Maybe I should change the title to WTF is wrong with people. Very good video mostly about Magical Thinking vs Evidence Seekers. Presented in a modern way (lots of clever movie clips) that's easier to watch than a TED talk by an Evolutionary Anthropologist, and faster than taking a course on Cult Behavior. :D

Touches a lot of issues, including religion, superstition, science, education, and technology -- and how humans deal with fear/anxiety/loss of control in a world that's increasingly complicated, complex, and hard to understand. One short part was how Evidence Seekers can talk to Magical Thinkers, and I thought of this forum and Lewk. :bulb:

I would disagree with the Rolling Stones, in spirit at least, and suggest that it was the Kennedies who are what was, and who perpetrated all that is currently, wrong with the United States of America. And the most important corollary to this: Richard Nixon did nothing wrong.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...s-embassy-fvd/

So, yeah.

Wow.

Observation.
My FB flow is interesting when looking at my friends that are US citizens.

I would say there are a few types:
1. The educated west coust CA types, hating Trump.
2. The cc cowboys types, still stuck in materialistic, my money, my things and 'me'! They like Trump though mostly about being conservative.
3. The people that could be (2) but have lost too much in the progress, hating Trump.
4. The combination of above ;-) that still usually, don't like Trump.

Over here I saw some recent article wondering how close US was to a civil war again.
I dimissed it as garbish but I might have to re-evaluate it some day. :p

We've also had warnings of a "Constitutional Crisis" that were ignored as too hypothetical to imagine....but here we are. Just a few weeks from a presidential election and the integrity of the whole voting process is being undermined by the sitting president and his sycophant PSYCHOFANS! :mad: