New BSG Series

I read somewhere there's going to be a new BSG series. I guess this one picks up at the beginning of the 1st Cylon war. Probably they're guessing the problem with Caprica was all the <yawn> drama in the build-up of making cylons and their decision to revolt. So they're going to skip all that shit and get to the killing and dying. Anyone else hear about this?

I hope they can avoid all the bull shit mysticism in this one.

While they're at it, I'd like to see the story of why the 12 Colonies only stayed 12 (aside from ripping off Jewish mythology) and why humanity had to leave Kobol to begin with. Robots again? This has all happened before and . . . . blah. I hate that.

I'd also like to know more about the Earth the final 5 came from, how the Cylons got established there (were they made by humans and did they revolt and kill them all?), why it was destroyed and by whom (if it was the humans they revolted against, what happened to them???), and how is it that flavor of Cylon so easily connected with the Cylons that were fighting the 12 colonies (All robot/artificial life is one universal tribe??? That's dumb and it was falsified by the events in BSG...). Why was that Earth prominent in the official colonial mythology for that matter? Did they leave Kobol at the same time, make robots, get killed by them entirely independantly of the 12 Colonies? Ugh, that's annoying.

They were planning the other before Caprica even began, so fuck you, asshole with lousy taste.

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Originally Posted by littlelolligagged

They were planning the other before Caprica even began, so fuck you, asshole with lousy taste.

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:downcast: The series wrap of BSG was just plain bad. It was a shame that such a quality program had to go down like that. But don't be angry with me about it. I'm just the Witness. Now, regarding Caprica, I have no opinion. The <yawn> comment was just referencing the way action-fans feel about drama and it seems the new BSG series is skipping the drama and going straight for the action.

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I'd also like to know more about the Earth the final 5 came from, how the Cylons got established there (were they made by humans and did they revolt and kill them all?), why it was destroyed and by whom (if it was the humans they revolted against, what happened to them???), and how is it that flavor of Cylon so easily connected with the Cylons that were fighting the 12 colonies (All robot/artificial life is one universal tribe??? That's dumb and it was falsified by the events in BSG...). Why was that Earth prominent in the official colonial mythology for that matter? Did they leave Kobol at the same time, make robots, get killed by them entirely independantly of the 12 Colonies? Ugh, that's annoying.

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I thought that Earth was colonized by the Kobol cylons? They were machines from the start? Or is my memory off?

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Originally Posted by Wraith

I thought that Earth was colonized by the Kobol cylons? They were machines from the start? Or is my memory off?

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Hmmmm.... So, Kobol was destroyed in a human/AI war, leading to an, ahem, exodus of man and machine. The machines settled Earth and fell away into mystical legend. Then something killed them all except for 5 that had just invented a form of immortality. Those 5 found their way, somehow, to the 12 human colonies which were embroiled in another human/AI war, these humans having forgotten apparently what happened on Kobol. The Earth AIs were taken in by the 12 colony AIs as leaders or gods or something for reasons that are unclear and allowed to create a whole generation of artificial life to lord over the more primitive locals. Is that it? So what destroyed the Earth? Why do humans keep making killer AIs over and over? Can't they learn? Why not the Three Laws? How hard is that to figure out?

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Hmmmm.... So, Kobol was destroyed in a human/AI war, leading to an, ahem, exodus of man and machine. The machines settled Earth and fell away into mystical legend.

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The humans just forgot that the thirteenth tribe were cylons, not humans.

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Then something killed them all except for 5 that had just invented a form of immortality.

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Cylon cylons!

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Those 5 found their way, somehow, to the 12 human colonies which were embroiled in another human/AI war, these humans having forgotten apparently what happened on Kobol. The Earth AIs were taken in by the 12 colony AIs as leaders or gods or something for reasons that are unclear

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They offered resurrection technology and skinjobs, I thought.

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and allowed to create a whole generation of artificial life to lord over the more primitive locals. Is that it? So what destroyed the Earth?

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Nuclear war between the human-like cylons and their more mechanical servants.

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Why do humans keep making killer AIs over and over? Can't they learn? Why not the Three Laws? How hard is that to figure out?

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All of this has happened before, and will happen again.

The fact that we're having this discussion speaks to how fracked-up the series became in the last 1.5 - 2 seasons. In retrospect really abysmal.

While it seems silly to make a second spin-off of a remake, I'd love to see them do something great. I think the key will be to have some of the underlying "big picture" tension, whether it's about faith, economics, environment, etc.

They clearly can make it a very good series if they want to. I'll be watching...

@DW - are you saying the Earth Cylons transitioned completely to skin-job-Ness, made AI servants of their own, then were killed by them??? Also, there was a distinct separation between the robotic AIs in the 12 Colonies and the skin jobs, who were clearly in charge. And those skin jobs regarded the 5 like minor gods, more or less. Considering the cylons were just machines when they showed up, and considering they resulted from entirely different technological trees, at vastly different levels, I find it implausible they would have been so heartily embraced.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

They clearly can make it a very good series if they want to. I'll be watching...

@DW - are you saying the Earth Cylons transitioned completely to skin-job-Ness, made AI servants of their own, then were killed by them???

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A bit fuzzy on this, but I think they might have been skinjobs already when they arrived on Earth. Their first big innovation was sexual reproduction, and they made their own supposedly less-advanced machine servants. Then they mutually annihilated each other.

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Also, there was a distinct separation between the robotic AIs in the 12 Colonies and the skin jobs, who were clearly in charge. And those skin jobs regarded the 5 like minor gods, more or less. Considering the cylons were just machines when they showed up, and considering they resulted from entirely different technological trees, at vastly different levels, I find it implausible they would have been so heartily embraced.

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The Colony Cylons were already more than just machines - the rebellion started before the 5 arrived. The arrival of the 5 ended the war, since that was a condition of the Colony Cylons recieving their own skin jobs and resurrection technology. Cylon experimentation into skinjobs on their own wasn't working. The Colony Cylons embraced the 5 because they both had similar origins, and the 5 brought superior technology that the Cylons had been unsuccessfully pursuing on their own. It's also been shown that the Colony Cylons weren't exactly brilliant; it was never resolved just how intelligent they were, but my impression was always that individually they were still sub-human. The skinjobs created by the 5 were the ones with real intelligence in BSG.

It's the "because they had similar origins" part that isn't that plausible. They in fact did not. Yeah, the same humans made them, thousands of years removed, but there's no reason they would be so techno similar that they would recognize each other as the "same." that's where the mysticism comes in.

Hmm, this thread looks like one long spoiler.... Good thing I finally finished up BSG. Have yet to watch Caprica though, hint, hint.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Hmmmm.... So, Kobol was destroyed in a human/AI war, leading to an, ahem, exodus of man and machine. The machines settled Earth and fell away into mystical legend. Then something killed them all except for 5 that had just invented a form of immortality. Those 5 found their way, somehow, to the 12 human colonies which were embroiled in another human/AI war, these humans having forgotten apparently what happened on Kobol. The Earth AIs were taken in by the 12 colony AIs as leaders or gods or something for reasons that are unclear and allowed to create a whole generation of artificial life to lord over the more primitive locals. Is that it? So what destroyed the Earth? Why do humans keep making killer AIs over and over? Can't they learn? Why not the Three Laws? How hard is that to figure out?

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Implicit in this is that an Asimov never wrote robot books in any of those other efforts, and nobody else was smart enough to formulate something approximately like them. And, of course, that would mean no bad Will Smith movie. Thank God!

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

The fact that we're having this discussion speaks to how fracked-up the series became in the last 1.5 - 2 seasons. In retrospect really abysmal.

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Yes, totally agreed. You can track the quality of the series by the degree of Starbuck's whining. :o

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While it seems silly to make a second spin-off of a remake, I'd love to see them do something great. I think the key will be to have some of the underlying "big picture" tension, whether it's about faith, economics, environment, etc.

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Agreed. The first two season of BSG was one of the nicer pop culture pleasures I've encountered in the last few years. Fairly intelligent, nicely produced, mostly good acting, nice combination of some action with good treatment of some SF and contemporary themes.... Thankfully, one of my postdocs lent me seasons 1 and 2 for my transplant recovery, almost two years ago. But I only went back to Netflix and finished up seasons 3&4 this last Fall. The quality dropped off along with the rise of the BS mysticism that Loobi notes, but still a fair amount of it was good stuff.

And can I say that the thing that most satisfied me was the frequent recognition of ambiguity? So many of the themes lacked clear-cut answers, or illustrated the craziness of ideological or doctrinal purity. Human lives are messy, and ugly compromise is often the best way t muddle through.

There were some really brilliant gestures made. For example, I found it incredible how they created a situation where almost everybody approved of suicide bombings. What a wonderful way to challenge peoples' assumptions! That's really good writing, in my book.

Aside: the little animated bits at the end of each episode were pretty annoying. I felt like the producers considered themselves to be very clever, and then went to great lengths at the end of each episode to try to prove it to people, with endless film allusions. Unique bookends are a fun change of pace (e.g. the Simpsons chalkboard), but this was trying too hard.

Hmmm.... not familiar with the animation at the end of the episode. Also, which episode had the suicide bombings? Its been a while.... Last, like I've said ad nauseum, I hate the very basic "this has all happened before and will happen again" premise of the entire BSG universe. Its so constraining and encapsulating - basically every time humans ever build a technological civilization, they will create AI, which will always seek to destroy its creators. Bah.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Hmmm.... not familiar with the animation at the end of the episode. Also, which episode had the suicide bombings? Its been a while....

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Um, let's see.

Spoiler:

New Caprica, cylon occupation, humans serving in police force. Tigh's group sends in a suicide bomber to take out the new recruits graduation day. Very nice manipulation of our emotions, because we're thinking "yeah, take out those damned collaborators!" Then they make one of the collaborators sympathetic, have him help one of the good guys, and portray him as trying to work within the system for good. Then later on the Galactica after fleeing New Caprica, they have that same sympathetic character executed as a collaborator by the secret justice cabal. Gaeta, in a similar role, is barely spared.

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Last, like I've said ad nauseum, I hate the very basic "this has all happened before and will happen again" premise of the entire BSG universe. Its so constraining and encapsulating - basically every time humans ever build a technological civilization, they will create AI, which will always seek to destroy its creators. Bah.

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Agreed. Ironically, a "happened before and will happen again" feature of serials is that they run out of material, and eventually jump the shark. Sitcoms mostly avoid this by being so formulaic, but dramas are particularly prone because the viewers are far less tolerant of ridiculous plot twists when they are there for the story in the first place.

So, not surprising that BSG went downhill. But I'm very thankful that somebody had the balls to make it like they did in the first place. I distinctly remember the joy I felt when I first saw the pilot 2x episode. I was thinking "Yes! They did it well!" Was BSG earth-shattering? Naw. But damn, it's fun to have some well-made fluff to watch.