He isn't 18 I guess we can't punish him too harshly...

At least that's what the crazy criminal loving liberals on this board will likely say.

http://www.austin360.com/news/nation...w6TabGiIc2AuL/

"The men shocked her with Tasers, threw boiling water on her and raped her while her older son watched, a police report said.

Police have arrested 17-year-old Francisco Palencia, 19-year-old Josue Ramirez and an unnamed 15-year-old female in connection with the assault. All three suspects have been charged with home invasion, rape, aggravated sodomy, kidnapping, aggravated battery and cruelty to children. More arrests are possible, a Gwinnett County Police Department spokesman said. "

So how long should Francisco stay in prison for? Poor 'child' probably had it rough and didn't know any better right? Poor little guy didn't have his brain fully developed couldn't know what he was doing was bad right? So how long before you think this 'minor' should go free and go out and rape and burglarize again?

I take some small condolence in the fact the little worthless shit will likely get raped in jail. Here's hoping he gets killed in prison before this garbage gets set free by the liberal court system.

You must be the only person in this country who thinks we have a liberal court system.

What's your point, Lewk? That too often being under-age is used as an "excuse" to be lenient when a crime has been committed?

Have you heard about the Penn State fraternity hazing death, where defendants' lawyers are claiming the same damn thing?

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Originally Posted by GGT

What's your point, Lewk? That too often being under-age is used as an "excuse" to be lenient when a crime has been committed?

Have you heard about the Penn State fraternity hazing death, where defendants' lawyers are claiming the same damn thing?

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Yes that is my point exactly. 17 is old enough to know better, it should in NO way mitigate sentencing. As far as the Penn State issue I'm not that familiar with the case but the argument that 'they were young' should hold no water. The fact that the hazing was voluntary to a degree makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by Loki

You must be the only person in this country who thinks we have a liberal court system.

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I would wager most countries of the world would be defined as less liberal *by your own definitions* than America is. So it makes me wonder what you define as a liberal court system.

Why are American conservatives always so eager to emulate Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under Taliban rule? You'd think developed western countries would make for better yardsticks.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

I would wager most countries of the world would be defined as less liberal *by your own definitions* than America is. So it makes me wonder what you define as a liberal court system.

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Number of people in jail.
Average sentence.
Number serving life without parole.
Existence of the death penalty.
Mandatory minimums.
Higher sentences for same crimes if you're black.
Higher sentences for crimes typically committed by non-whites.
Length of permitted sentences for juveniles.

The US has by far the harshest criminal justice system in the West, and by some measures, one of the five most harsh systems (corruption and torture aside) in the world.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Number of people in jail.
Average sentence.
Number serving life without parole.
Existence of the death penalty.
Mandatory minimums.
Higher sentences for same crimes if you're black.
Higher sentences for crimes typically committed by non-whites.
Length of permitted sentences for juveniles.

The US has by far the harshest criminal justice system in the West, and by some measures, one of the five most harsh systems (corruption and torture aside) in the world.

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Hmmm...I think we can include corruption and torture...just not as institutionalized?

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Originally Posted by Loki

Number of people in jail.
Average sentence.
Number serving life without parole.
Existence of the death penalty.
Mandatory minimums.
Higher sentences for same crimes if you're black.
Higher sentences for crimes typically committed by non-whites.
Length of permitted sentences for juveniles.

The US has by far the harshest criminal justice system in the West, and by some measures, one of the five most harsh systems (corruption and torture aside) in the world.

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How many hands are we cutting off?
How many stonings are taking place?
Trial by jury as opposed to religious officials
Blasphemy is not illegal
Number of lynchings
Reasonable Doubt standard
Chain of evidence requirements
The use of science and expert testimony
Media allowed to be within the court
Type of executions tend to be mild compared to other great economic powers in the world (Japan/China in terms of GDP)

To be quite honest the largest issue with our criminal justice system and incarceration rates is illegal drug use. Eliminate that as a crime and give harsher sentences to violent criminals and you solve 90% of the problems.

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Originally Posted by Aimless

Why are American conservatives always so eager to emulate Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under Taliban rule? You'd think developed western countries would make for better yardsticks.

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Because those countries don't always get it right and the base level of crime is different? We have millions of illegal criminals that have poured into our country - making it an apples to oranges comparison. Furthermore there are unique cultural problems in America that generate crime. And finally soft sanctions on criminals can eventually lead to really horrific crimes. I mean heck Norway has pretty cushy prisons and it had the largest lone gunman shooting in the world!

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

How many hands are we cutting off?
How many stonings are taking place?
Trial by jury as opposed to religious officials
Blasphemy is not illegal
Number of lynchings
Reasonable Doubt standard
Chain of evidence requirements
The use of science and expert testimony
Media allowed to be within the court
Type of executions tend to be mild compared to other great economic powers in the world (Japan/China in terms of GDP)

To be quite honest the largest issue with our criminal justice system and incarceration rates is illegal drug use. Eliminate that as a crime and give harsher sentences to violent criminals and you solve 90% of the problems.

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So your standard is literally Saudi Arabia? Yes, we're less harsh than Saudi Arabia. Incidentally, do you see how insane it is to claim we have a liberal legal system because we're more liberal than one of the most oppressive/repressive society on earth?

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Originally Posted by Veldan Rath

Hmmm...I think we can include corruption and torture...just not as institutionalized?

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Exactly. And even though a lower portion of our prisoners are tortured, we have such a large percentage of the entire population in jail, that a higher portion of our overall population gets tortured than in almost any country in the world.

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Originally Posted by Loki

So your standard is literally Saudi Arabia? Yes, we're less harsh than Saudi Arabia. Incidentally, do you see how insane it is to claim we have a liberal legal system because we're more liberal than one of the most oppressive/repressive society on earth?

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Did you ignore the rest?

If you look at comparable countries of our GDP we execute people with less harsh measures is just one example.

But keep in mind that it isn't just Saudi Arabia, there are many more countries that have religious laws. And countries that don't aren't all that peachy either. Latin America has a huge problem with lynching. But you know keep digging your head in the sand and only compare America to socialist Europe in comparison in justice system. Man it sure is kind of... dare I say ethnocentric of you to completely ignore the Asia, South America and Africa. I guess those continents aren't white enough for the comparison to be made for you.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

How many hands are we cutting off?

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No Western country does this.

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How many stonings are taking place?

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No Western country does this.

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Trial by jury as opposed to religious officials

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No Western country does this.

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Blasphemy is not illegal

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No Western country does this.

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Number of lynchings

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No Western country does this.

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Reasonable Doubt standard

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This standard can only exist in a common law system. No Western common law country uses a lower standard.

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Chain of evidence requirements

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The same is true in every Western country.

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The use of science and expert testimony

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The same is true in every Western country.

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Media allowed to be within the court

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This actually hurts defendants because everyone sees who they are.

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Type of executions tend to be mild compared to other great economic powers in the world (Japan/China in terms of GDP)

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Japan has "harsher" executions, but also far, far fewer. No Western European or Anglo-Saxon country even allows the death penalty.

So are you just trolling here? Your standard is Saudi Arabia. Ultimately, the leniency of a legal system is determined by conviction rates, percentage of population in jail, and severity of punishments. We're top of the world in one, and are in the same category as some very repressive regimes when it comes to the other two (granted, we're not Saudi Arabia).

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Originally Posted by Loki

Japan has "harsher" executions, but also far, far fewer. No Western European or Anglo-Saxon country even allows the death penalty.

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Because that is all that matters to you I guess.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Because that is all that matters to you I guess.

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So for you, America's comparison group is Middle Eastern tyrants and communist dictatorships? Is that how poorly you think of your country?

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Originally Posted by Loki

So for you, America's comparison group is Middle Eastern tyrants and communist dictatorships? Is that how poorly you think of your country?

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Is that all of the world? South America is communist dictatorships? (Well...) Japan? India?

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Is that all of the world? South America is communist dictatorships? (Well...) Japan? India?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rceration_rate (the US rate is 21 times India's and 19 times Japan's; it's also worse than every one of the South American civil war zones).

http://www.justicepolicy.org/uploads...sentencing.pdf (far higher average sentence than comparable countries)

The average juvenile sentence in Latin America is 3 months. https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content...ca-Revised.pdf

In the US, it's 90 months (for the 2/3 who get jailed). https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=236

Are you suggesting outcomes matter more than process? Because our process is extremely liberal giving every opportunity for the criminal to walk.

If a nation has more crime it will have a higher incarceration rate. To think otherwise is kinda crazy.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

Are you suggesting outcomes matter more than process? Because our process is extremely liberal giving every opportunity for the criminal to walk.

If a nation has more crime it will have a higher incarceration rate. To think otherwise is kinda crazy.

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Yes, I am suggesting that jailing people for crimes that people don't get jailed for in other countries and giving longer sentences is not "extremely liberal."

You mean giving people rights? You know just about every democracy (and even many non-democracies) in the world does that, right? You're still using Saudi Arabia as the comparison, Lewk.

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Originally Posted by Lewkowski

So how long should Francisco stay in prison for? Poor 'child' probably had it rough and didn't know any better right? Poor little guy didn't have his brain fully developed couldn't know what he was doing was bad right? So how long before you think this 'minor' should go free and go out and rape and burglarize again?

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What if he serves his sentence without getting tortured, while in prison gets psychological treatment/counselling for whatever it is that's wrong in his head, and on release finds a job to become a tax paying contributor to his local community?

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I take some small condolence in the fact the little worthless shit will likely get raped in jail. Here's hoping he gets killed in prison before this garbage gets set free by the liberal court system.

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You're just as sick a fuck as these criminals.

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Originally Posted by Loki

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Blasphemy is not illegal

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No Western country does this.

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If only that were true. America's first amendment doesn't extend to the whole western world sadly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law
Canada: 'Blasphemous libel' is punishable by upto 2 years in prison.
Germany: 'Religious defamation' is illegal. An atheist was fined last year for bumper stickers!
Greece uses anti-blasphemy laws to protect the Greek Orthodox Church
Ireland: Anti-Christian blasphemy is prohibited by the Irish constitution!
Do you count Israel as western? Blasphemy is illegal there.
New Zealand: No convictions against it but anti-blasphemy laws still exist.
Poland: A prosecution for blasphemy occurred under its laws as recently as 2012.
Also in 2012 Spain started a prosecution against an artist for something filmed 34 years earlier.
Switzerland has blasphemy laws.

A number of other western countries like the UK and France have only abolished their blasphemy laws relatively recently, while the US First Amendment has always prohibited them there.

EDIT: The repeal of blasphemy laws in the UK applied to England and Wales. Its still illegal technically in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It's also illegal in some states and territories in Australia.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

If only that were true.

<snip>

EDIT: The repeal of blasphemy laws in the UK applied to England and Wales. Its still illegal technically in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It's also illegal in some states and territories in Australia.

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Wow.

So, what constitutes blasphemy in these laws? Is it spelled out, or entirely subjective? Probably a mix, I'm sure...

Side Note - until a few years ago it was illegal in Michigan to curse in front of women and children, a misdemeanor I think. The law was repealed, iirc, after someone was charged with it a while back and challenged it in court. There are a lot of laws like that, archaic out-of-date rules, on the books in probably every state and never (almost) enforced. I'm guessing the Western blasphemy laws are similar?

EDIT: Interesting, from the Germany article:

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Under German law, blasphemy is only illegal if it is considered to be “capable of disturbing the peace”.

Those found guilty can be sentenced to up to three years in prison, but the law is rarely enforced.

People can be convicted of blasphemy for defaming any religion. In 2006, a man was given a one-year suspended sentence for distributing sheets of toilet paper with the word “Koran” printed on them.

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Yes Rand, let's use a law that gets invoked to issue a fine once a decade to determine the severity of a country's legal system. I should note that it's still legal to shoot a Welshman with a longbow in Liverpool.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Yes Rand, let's use a law that gets invoked to issue a fine once a decade to determine the severity of a country's legal system.

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When did I saw we should do that? :bulb:

Lewk's a fool if he thinks that America is liberal (even with his definition) by western standards. Just because Lewk is a fool doesn't mean I can't hold you to a higher standard and nitpick when you're wrong.

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I should note that it's still legal to shoot a Welshman with a longbow in Liverpool.

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I was talking about real laws not urban legends: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35376020

To stress how you cant really point to a law on the books, and really should focus on the last time it was enforced. The US has 6 states with blasphemy laws still on the books.

No but you can point to laws that have been used to secure convictions or even prosecutions in recent years which I did. Many of the nations mentioned have had prosecutions (some successful) this decade. Certainly more than "No western country".

Even dormant laws can result in convictions though if the law has not been superseded.

I think perhaps you might want to clarify your definition of the term "recent".

Considering I already followed that up with "this decade" I'd have thought that was already clarified. If you want more specific then 2012 was specifically mentioned twice.

In the grand scheme of things I would consider this century to be recent, but I most certainly would call 2012 recent.

One conviction a decade (which resulted in a fine) is really something worthwhile to bring up in a debate about the leniency of a legal system.

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Originally Posted by RandBlade

No but you can point to laws that have been used to secure convictions or even prosecutions in recent years which I did.
.

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You listed 9 countries and only provided examples of the laws being tested in 3. We could throw israel in there as a free pass for 4, if anyone considers it Western.