Trans-gender issues for those of us who are not

[Hazir]

Well, I have this friend in Istanbul who appears to be trans-gender. It's not settled alltogether a lot of questions remain open, but the direction appears to be clear. That is something - as I have also expressed in face to face talks - that I will never be able to fully understand. I also think that is none of my damn business anyway.

However, I am considering us friends. And no matter how I think about it, there are some things I have to deal with. Some time ago we went shopping for clothes and shoes, and in the gold glare of big stores that was surprisingly non-stressfull. It was actually fun to talk about what kind of style and picking out dresses that might work or not work. Even fitting and judging didn't cause me serious discomfort. With only the slightest undercurrent of internal defensiveness I told what I thought about the dresses and stiletto heels that were tried on.

But then there is this other part. Turkey on the surface is a modern country but society is awfully conservative when it comes to sexuality. Basically what is expected of a man is that at some point he will be married to a woman. That woman will find her true fullfilment then as a mother of a bunch of children. Some people manage to escape that mould without suffering serious damage. But they are a minority. And they don't count any trans-gender people amongst them.

Typically when a trans-gender person sets upon the path of transition in Turkey that means roughly 2 things. You loose your family and pretty much whatever career perspective you had and then you are out on your own. Being out on your own in Turkey is a pretty bleak thing. It typically involves being homeless and hungry. The result of that is that virtually all male to female trans-gender people wind up in a marginal subculture where they try to make a living with prostitution and the males around them are a mixture of male prostitutes, pimps and drugs dealers.

My friend is smart and probably could find a job under easier circumstances, but I don't see it happening any longer and then I see this future with all sorts of unsavoury people that I don't really want to hang out with. However the first brushes with that sub-set already happened on a first attempt of going out (could be chalked up to little more than cross dressing). We got attention in a way I felt as very unpleasant. All sorts of low-lifes started to approach my friend at a bar. Why I call them low-lifes ? Well, that's got to do a bit with conservative turkish culture. In a normal setting people would have assumed that we were together and thus my friend off limit. And since they could never have known that we were not together as a couple them even starting to talk to my friend meant that they assumed a new 'easy girl' was available.

And then I realised 'ok, this is really not what I want'. But if that's true that means that I am becoming part of that set of people who cuts transgender people out. And that was really discomforting, I don't know really how to deal with this, and actually got emotional (like in crying) when I considered the future of our friendship.

Anyway... sort of a rant.. and sort of wondering what you think about this.

[GGT]

Can she move somewhere else during the transition, or are all her friends in Istanbul?

I've only known a couple of MTF adults, but they could transition in fairly accepting cultures and sub-cultures (not counting our Angel here). The FTM child in our town appeared to have a relatively easy time, presumably because 'sexual preferences' and 'sexuality' had nothing to do with a second grader. He was dressing and acting as a boy long before the name or official gender change....so that's not going to help your friend, or you.

But it seems the Transitioning is the hardest part. In a conservative culture you describe, it seems almost better to avoid situations that add in the sexuality part, like avoiding pick-up bars or clubs in general, whether gay or straight. She must be working with a counselor or therapist for this, so what do they suggest?

[Hazir]

Well, there is a therapist involved. And guess what she asked?

Spoiler:

Are you engaged in prostitution?

The thing is though, this isn't really about the choices my friend will be facing, hard as they are. It's more about how do I deal with it in that environment?

[GGT]

Well.....is she? Is that what's bugging you, maybe? Or was it because you saw a scene at a gay bar that bothered you? I mean, as you said, there's a difference between cross-dressing and "low-lifes" that can almost smell vulnerable people and take advantage of them....

[Angel_Mapper]

The issues you describe are the same as a lot of us go through over here. Prostitution, drug abuse, unemployment and disownment are huge problems for us. I got lucky, my family and friends accept me and my chosen career is very open. Not all of us are as fortunate, and I sincerely mean it when I say that you shouldn't feel bad if you have to distance yourself from your friend if you're getting into too many uncomfortable situations and talking to them about it doesn't seem to be helping. There's only so much you can do as a friend, and it's not your fault. It'll hurt like hell but at some point if you've done everything you can do you have to save yourself.

[GGT]

You are very fortunate, Angel.

It sounded to me like Hazir is coming to terms with his friend's change (even though he doesn't really understand it....). Nothing wrong with being a shopping friend, or go-to-the-movies friend, or dinner party friend. Those things can be really important for not feeling alone in the "traditional" social world. It just may not work to be the gay-club-hopping scene friend. Whoever said a good friend has to be an everything-friend?

[Hazir]

The issues you describe are the same as a lot of us go through over here. Prostitution, drug abuse, unemployment and disownment are huge problems for us. I got lucky, my family and friends accept me and my chosen career is very open. Not all of us are as fortunate, and I sincerely mean it when I say that you shouldn't feel bad if you have to distance yourself from your friend if you're getting into too many uncomfortable situations and talking to them about it doesn't seem to be helping. There's only so much you can do as a friend, and it's not your fault. It'll hurt like hell but at some point if you've done everything you can do you have to save yourself.

Yes, this is roughly what I am talking about. I'm not saying it's all down the plonker at once, but there was this painful moment where we - albeit on the basis of a single mishap - had to face the fact that maybe we could be friends but that our life-styles might in the end prove incompatible. I mean, we're not just talking about cross-dressing for fun where somebody puts on a dress for a couple of hours and everything is over once the dress comes off. We're talking about a future where I may find that the people my friend hangs out with are people I really don't want to associate with.

CGT, the answer is no. But how long will that remain the answer if the environment is one of prostitutes etc. And mind you, the unease isn't coming even from the possible prostitution-thing, but from the people that hang around transgender mtf people in Istanbul.

[Hazir]

GGT; the gay bars I usually go to in Turkey are more or less like the average gay bar in a western country. It was a bit of a shocker for me actually that I couldn't get my friend into my regular hangout. It was the first time that anybody with me was rejected at that place. I've got the reputation that I can get anybody in at that place. I even could get in women on nights that they normally wouldn't admit them. What happened was pretty stark in your face discrimination. Under normal circumstances it's a place where people go to to have fun, dance and/or meet with their friends. Hundreds of people inside and hardly ever a problem with fighting.

The bars transgender people (can) go to in Istanbul are of an entirely different genre. The first we were at there was a fist fight between a woman who was clearly high on something (given the extra-ordinary amount of violence she used in response to the advances of a man after she flashed him) and who drew blood hitting him with her phone and kicking him in the crotch with 11cm stiletto heels. The second place was closed two days later because some rentboy picked up from there stabbed and killed his customer in a dispute over money.

I forgot to answer you question about moving; that will be quite hard. Turkish citizens can't travel freely. They need hard to obtain for pretty much everywhere other than Syria or Cuba.

[GGT]

CGT, the answer is no. But how long will that remain the answer if the environment is one of prostitutes etc. And mind you, the unease isn't coming even from the possible prostitution-thing, but from the people that hang around transgender mtf people in Istanbul.

I'm kind of confused about which is which and what's worrying you now. Are you saying the "low lifes" who hang around transgender MTF folks also hang out at the clubs you go to, and you don't like to see that? Dunno, maybe it's the type of club you went to, so change clubs?

In other words, if you you see her as a female friend and have fun shopping and hanging out, then just treat her as any other female friend. Or is this about her sexuality....?

Not sure what her therapist is saying, but it sounds to me like your friend is still thinking it's a good idea to go to gay clubs, to meet gay men. I can see how that would be upsetting and confusing to you. Maybe Angel needs to chime in now.


oops so I read your last post after mine. Is it because this is her Transition period, so it's still "obvious" that she's not (what's the term) fully integrated yet? How about just going to a place that isn't strictly "gay", and take some straight friends along, men and women? You had fun at a shopping mall, so try it at any random restaurant or music venue. Is she just now "trying to pass"?

[Hazir]

No, they don't hang out at the same clubs. Because, obviously, the door policy at those clubs is with the same prejudices against transgender people as there are in general society. Which is; they are prostitutes and they attract an undesirable following. So they are not getting in. The circuit of places they (can) go to is entirely separate.

Your 'treat her as a female' approach isn't really going to work. At least not for somebody who cares about his friends. Would you feel comfortable if you would go out with a younger friend and see her leave the place you went to with somebody who might see her as the ideal person to gangbang with all six guys he shares his room with? Because that's not even such an unlikely scenario. I doubt you would just think 'oh that's really not my problem' and leave it at that.

[GGT]

Well, no, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a friend of mine being viewed as a "target" for that kind of thing. Gay or straight, prude or prostitute, slut or whatever. If they're naive or drunk or stupid, friends try to intervene or be protective of them. It's been a long time since I did the clubbing scene, let alone gay clubs. But there used to be a sentiment that friends "have your back". Isn't that a common thing between cultures? Sure, some friends hell bent on self-destruction and dangerous situations eventually weren't friends anymore.

What I'm trying to ask is aimed more about you finding your nerve center, to figure out exactly what's bugging you.

[GGT]

ps Hazir, "treat her as a female" was asking if you can see her as any 'ole regular female friend (who happened to be born with that genitalia). You do have some female friends or family members and do social things together, right?

[Draco]

If you don't see yourself no longer being able to associate with a certain individual because of the type of people they associate with, then that's fair enough. Then again can't you continue being friends with this person yet explain to her that you don't want to associate with her friends?

[Nessus]

Trans-genderism is a really different beast from plain old faggotry (or BDSM fetishism, for that matter) in that it intrudes in all areas of your life*. Ergo, you cannot separate your professional life or your friends from it. And in most cases, neither the professional world of your choice nor your friends' culture can accept trannies; if faggotry evokes revulsion and a visceral reaction of wrongness, trannies are even more repugnant to Joe Six-Pack or Sally Soccer-Mom. A faggot is easier to tolerate because he behaves just like everyone else in the workplace, he does his faggotry at home. A transitioning person doesn't have that luxury.

The way Hazir makes it out, it's impossible for him to remain a decent, upstanding member of his community (to borrow some US jargon) and remain friends with a tranny. In that sense, it's the society's fault, not his, so obviously he's absolved from responsibility if and when he ditches his gender-bending friend. If the friend doesn't get it, their sense of entitlement is, well. Sucks for the friend, but there are no good scenarios for trannies atm. Just compromises.

*Because we view every human action through the lens of gender, it is a rare and isolated area where that doesn't happen. World is fucked up, yo

[GGT]

Of course it's difficult for transitioning transgender people, but maybe everyone around them is so worried about doing or saying the "wrong thing" or the "right thing" that, in the end, they just give up. Right when their friend or family needs them most. Not sure why we (co-workers, friends, family) can't all just deal with it by individual circumstance.

Saying Hazir has a specific community, what's that mean? His Turkish community, his gay community....what? I'd think by now most of us know we move and interact in many communities, that our sub-cultures over lap, and we can figure out how to make things work even when OLD constructs don't work.

This may sound hippie-ish, but I don't think we truly view every action through the lens of gender, or even sexual preference. Maybe at the outset or onset, because we're still visual animals, and we tend to like grouping. But most of interactive life happens after the initial biases of bodies and sexual bits. Same can be said about pigmentation, height, weight, body language, or verbal language.

We're not cavemen or hunter-gatherers now. Most of us live daily lives with lots of diversity and differences around us, and we're not hiding or isolating into tiny groups where we might bump up against strange people.

[Hazir]

Trans-genderism is a really different beast from plain old faggotry (or BDSM fetishism, for that matter) in that it intrudes in all areas of your life*. Ergo, you cannot separate your professional life or your friends from it. And in most cases, neither the professional world of your choice nor your friends' culture can accept trannies; if faggotry evokes revulsion and a visceral reaction of wrongness, trannies are even more repugnant to Joe Six-Pack or Sally Soccer-Mom. A faggot is easier to tolerate because he behaves just like everyone else in the workplace, he does his faggotry at home. A transitioning person doesn't have that luxury.

The way Hazir makes it out, it's impossible for him to remain a decent, upstanding member of his community (to borrow some US jargon) and remain friends with a tranny. In that sense, it's the society's fault, not his, so obviously he's absolved from responsibility if and when he ditches his gender-bending friend. If the friend doesn't get it, their sense of entitlement is, well. Sucks for the friend, but there are no good scenarios for trannies atm. Just compromises.

*Because we view every human action through the lens of gender, it is a rare and isolated area where that doesn't happen. World is fucked up, yo

I am not going to deny a bit of hypocrisy is part of it; my life is easier if I don't have to deal with the prejudices of Joe and Sally. That doesn't mean I always opt for the easiest option. I mean, I did go shopping female clothes for somebody who looks like a man to everybody and I walked with my friend through the main street of Beyoglu/Istanbul when those clothes were tried on. And I knew I acted like sort of a safety screen there because I am bigger and bulkier than most Turks and people are less likely to say something with me there. I dealt with the stigma at those times.

I realise I forgot to mention something in this whole story, which is a large component of why I don't want to hang out with 'those people' (=the people around trans-genders). A couple of years ago, somebody who is part of that 'community' took a liking to a female friend of mine. That happened when I wasn't there. From what I know she had gone out with another friend one night, drank a bit too much and started kissing this guy. I will admit I could understand it a bit, because he was handsome as hell. But for the careful observer it was clear that he also was trouble. After the kissing she decided that had been it and she dumped him (which involved taking a taxi back home because otherwise he would have followed her). Some weeks later I am at a restaurant with her, not aware of anything, when this maniac comes storming in. He starts ranting about why she is doing this to him and I get up and tell him (after establishing such) that my friend is not interested in him. He goes off on me and the restaurant staff throws him out. Later that night he attacked me with a knife (without success, he cut himself rather than me).

There is this way of 'thinking' in Turkey, which is still pretty prevalent. It sort of works like this: a trans-gender person must be a prostitute, prostitutes are easy for fucking but they are beings without honour. If you are rejected by somebody like that your honour is severely damaged and that needs to be redressed. With blood preferably. (Most experienced trans-gender persons are prepared for such encounters and carry a knife themselves too).

Now, bigotry is annoying, but after all there is not that much they can do. Knives in the hands of stupid (and often drugged people) is something different.

I think that if my friend were living in Holland, I wouldn't have posted this thread.

[GGT]

Hazir. This is almost too much drama for most people to deal with. Transgender or not. Oh, I understand how sub-cultures can be ALL about the drama. But you're mixing a Turkish conservative male dominant culture, with your other life as a gay man in the Netherlands, which is more progressive. Seems one of your main issues is going back and forth between those very different cultures.

You're most likely correct in feeling that if your friend lived in Holland, she'd have a whole society prepared to welcome her, or at least deal with it in ways that Istanbul cannot. There's probably only so much you can do for her in Turkey. Can you start by treating her like any other woman in your life, or is that too difficult at this juncture?

<When my ex-husband's colleague and office mate first came out, all he could think of was he's gonna cut his dick off, he's gonna cut his dick off, omg he's gonna cut his dick off?!. Needless to say, he wasn't much help.>

[Hazir]

Actually, I am strictly speaking about the Turkish part. This is something that has got to do with local culture there and the way that makes people act.

I also think you have a much too rosy view of how my friend's life would be in Holland, it's not like everything is easy for trans-gender people overhere.

[GGT]

I wouldn't call it a rosy view, just a bit easier. As you suggested.

I think that if my friend were living in Holland, I wouldn't have posted this thread.

Feel free to expound on that.....

[Hazir]

I wouldn't call it a rosy view, just a bit easier. As you suggested.



Feel free to expound on that.....

Simple reason, even though life here isn't easy at least at the bottom line there is Welfare if somebody can't find a job. That doesn't give you a life in the lap of luxury, but it sure beats a situation in which you're forced into an under-world of prostitution and drugs.

By the way; the SGK (social security council) in Turkey has recently decided that if attested by a psychiatrist a trans-gender person can have the reconstructive surgeries at the expenses of the SGK. So it's not like there isn't anything moving in a positive direction there either, but it's a long way from the way it is in Holland.

[GGT]

So you're expressing concern over her ability to have gainful employment, or welfare is she can't? You're worried she may fall into an under-world of prostitution?

Help me out here Hazir, I see the moving parts and all that. Do you want us to validate what you've done for your friend so far? You have that. Do you want us to say it's okay to walk away because it might too much? You have that too.

Do you want us to help you keep your friend from falling into an underworld of prostitution? Assuming that kind of behavior can be avoided (and I do think it can) then just say so. Cut to the chase.

[littlelolligagged]

Hazir, there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting yourself first. It's not a sign of prejudice to do it, either. I mean, is this some best friend you want/need/feel obligated to stand by no matter what, or is it a less powerful sort of bond? Putting yourself into a situation where you are unhappy does no one any good at all.

I assume you were just looking for the chance to vent - but I do have a question. As opposed to this being a going out to the gay bars kind of friend, couldn't she just be a coming over and visiting kind of friend? Or would even knowing the sort of people she is likely to be around now affect the way you feel?

[GGT]

I already asked that Lolli, about 12 hours ago.

[Hazir]

Hazir, there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting yourself first. It's not a sign of prejudice to do it, either. I mean, is this some best friend you want/need/feel obligated to stand by no matter what, or is it a less powerful sort of bond? Putting yourself into a situation where you are unhappy does no one any good at all.

I assume you were just looking for the chance to vent - but I do have a question. As opposed to this being a going out to the gay bars kind of friend, couldn't she just be a coming over and visiting kind of friend? Or would even knowing the sort of people she is likely to be around now affect the way you feel?

Yeah, it's mostly a way to vent. It's also not so that I am looking for validation of my actions or choices. I just am wondering how other people would deal with a situation like that.

The problem is, like Nessus pointed out, that for trans-genders it's not just a part of their life. It doesn't stop when you leave the bar/ bar-scene. AND the people that they get to know in that environment don't respect boundaries. (see the knife incident)

[Momo]

Hazzy, my perspective on the matter is that you're fearing change. You're getting emotionally upset at a future that you're only imagining. It hasn't arrived yet. Perhaps with a little patience and open-mindedness (and honesty) you'll come to a place where you can make the right decision. There's no need to make a decision, or feel confounded, about something that hasn't happened yet.
the man that attacked you with a knife did so over a 'natural' (i.e. un-operated-upon) female, correct? If men are like that in general and that's what concerns you, then perhaps this has more to do with your attraction to men than your concerns about trans-gender. You're used to working with gay male energy. An annoyed gay man responds like an annoyed man. What will your annoyed trans woman respond like?

[LittleFuzzy]

Or would even knowing the sort of people she is likely to be around now affect the way you feel?

When circumstances force you into the position of being around people like that, inside that sub-culture and not just interacting with it on the fringes, it affects you. Hazir's friend will change over time, and probably in ways that will make him uncomfortable, to better fit and be safe there *relatively* We're shaped by our environments. So it is probable that eventually, she won't even be someone he'd be comfortable having to his house anymore either.

[Hazir]

When circumstances force you into the position of being around people like that, inside that sub-culture and not just interacting with it on the fringes, it affects you. Hazir's friend will change over time, and probably in ways that will make him uncomfortable, to better fit and be safe there *relatively* We're shaped by our environments. So it is probable that eventually, she won't even be someone he'd be comfortable having to his house anymore either.

Well, yes, that's of course also possible. I hadn't even thought that far, I was more looking at it still from the 'fringe' perspective.

[littlelolligagged]

When circumstances force you into the position of being around people like that, inside that sub-culture and not just interacting with it on the fringes, it affects you. Hazir's friend will change over time, and probably in ways that will make him uncomfortable, to better fit and be safe there *relatively* We're shaped by our environments. So it is probable that eventually, she won't even be someone he'd be comfortable having to his house anymore either.

Good point.

[GGT]

Fuzzy's scenario is possible, but Momo had a point, too. Anticipating and fearing the unknown. Deciding the whole thing will devolve into some icky uncomfortable scene is just too premature.

Two of the three people I know who went through the transition did so as adults, over age 30. They didn't have to change their jobs or the people they socialized with, their worlds didn't get smaller or devolve into dark sub-sub-cultures. If anything, their lives branched out and became broader. They felt comfortable hanging out with both hetero and gay crowds, but their sexual orientation didn't change. (The man who liked women became a woman who liked women...the man who liked men became a woman who liked men...there are most likely bisexual transgenders, too.)

[Hazir]

I am not fearing the unknown in this matter. I am fearing having an actual knife stuck somewhere where I'd rather not have it. If fear of change were the problem the solution would have been easy; change my circle of friends to exclude this particular person.

Somebody else in Istanbul told me that my estimation of me being the 'security' on the nights out wasn't far off the mark; 'You don't think we'd have gone out like that (female attire) if you hadn't been around do you? We wouldn't have felt safe'. Which is flattering, but also a confirmation of my worries.