Politicizing Victims (?)

[GGT]

Opening a dialogue about ideology toward victimhood. With so many extreme and polar opposites in our culture and politics, the attitude toward victims seems all over the map. Examples:

Those who signed bad mortgage loans for more than they could afford --- are they victims of exploitation or it's their own fault for being stupid?

Caught stealing toothpaste and shot in the back --- victim of vigilante justice or they deserved what they got?

Person's house burns down because they forgot to pay a bill --- victim of a bad system or their own idiocy?

Unemployed and taking public assistance --- victim of public policy or are they just lazy whiners?


The far right, ultra-conservatives often say big government is to blame. For "creating a set of people who are dependent on the government".....so their answer is to go to small government. Their next step says people should be independent and self-reliant, pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Without any government assistance (because gummint is teh evil). Really no such thing as "victims", just bad decision-makers?

The far left, ultra-liberals often say bad government is to blame. For "creating a climate where we're all dependent on the big corporations"....so their answer is to regulate. Their next step says people should rely on better government to even the playing field. With government assistance (because corporate greed is teh evil). Everyone is a "victim"?

Seems a wide chasm toward the attitude toward victims/victimhood is the elephant in the room. Somewhere in the middle would be a good place to land. But moderates are few and far between. Now it's all Us vs Them. Extremism on both sides. Choose.

[NGS]

The problem with moderates is they're so damn quiet. Only 20% of the voters are doing the talking these days (10% on each of the far ends). In terms of conservative attitudes towards victims, clearly the psychological aspect of blaming the victim comes into play. In everyday events this is said to be a common mistake of judgement without proper understanding/context, as well as hindsight bias. I'd postulate it's the same thing going on with the far right. More later maybe...

[GGT]

Yeah, I kinda fucked up the OP. Would have added a poll but my polls usually suck, too.

Looking at our (US) political environment, much seems to boil down to whether Victimhood is considered "real" or not, and then who's to "blame". That can lead to folks picking one solution over another. Laissez-faire or tighter regulation. Hands-off or Hands-on.

Even our resident Libertarian (Veldan Rath) recognizes we're a nation of laws. It gets muddied when the supposedly hands-off conservative politicians also run on a platform of making gay marriage illegal, or repealing Roe v Wade. Or they claim to be all about the Constitution, but want to repeal certain amendments, or keep Muslims from building in NYC. Or they're fine with anonymous political contributions that influence our legislators, but demand to know the funding behind Park 51

I'm not too fond of the far left either, where everyone is a potential victim and needs a law to protect them.

[GGT]

Another example (food for thought):

Hungary's toxic sludge disaster. Do those local victims "deserve what they got" because of how they voted, and the type of environmental protections they did/didn't have from their government? Do people along the Danube "deserve the consequences" too?

That's the paradox of victims, laws, and politics. It's easier to take a black and white attitude, or fall back on the Freeeee Market and its Invisible Hand. Litigating after the fact, after the damage has been done, making the assumption that business won't make bad decisions (that could kill their business prospects); that seems to be the small government proponent solution to everything.

It just doesn't make sense to me. It's like asking for a Chernobyl before we have an EPA or NRC. Or a deadly flu pandemic before we justify a CDC or NIH. Or a gulf oil volcano before we have comprehensive regulations for oil companies. Oh, wait.....





EDIT instead of making a new post. That would be against the rulez for pimping my own thread (or talking to myself)?

Regarding property rights, politics, and ideology. I'm reminded of the Old Days, when a rape victim could be considered "asking for it" or tempting fate, by walking late at night alone, dressed in a skirt and low-cut top. Their sexual history was considered fodder during court proceedings. There's a very old notion that victims just don't practice due diligence, to protect themselves. Ergo, they "deserved what they got" because of their naivete or stupidity. Or that no man could be held accountable for being "confused by mixed messages". After all, even date rape cases are about when does No really mean No, and when is consent "unspoken and assumed"?

That's our history for personal physical violations; blame the victim. Hold them to a higher standard. It disturbs me when it looks to be seeping into land property "rights" and other rights. Libertarians are all about this --- we don't need no stinking EPA telling us what to do! If a polluting industry upstream of our drinking water ends up contaminating our water, just sue his ass. That's all it takes. Then corporations will remember we share "property rights"?

Problem is, damage has to take place first. A victim has to be acknowledged first. Sometimes it takes years, decades, generations, and many victims to prove....victimhood. And by then, it's too late to undo the damage.

Our US educational system is part of this mess, yes. But instead of trying to get a better public system that serves all students better, many conservatives would rather withdraw public funding, stop ESL, ban comprehensive sex-ed, end subsidized school lunches, fine parents for their truant student children, privatize education, or leave the system by Homeschooling their own kids.

[GGT]

Another victim tangent. Feel free to post, anyone who'd be reading this!

When do minorities stop feeling or acting like "victims"? Women used to be a huge minority in academia, sports, and the work force. Not any longer, yet women still make 80 cents on the dollar compared to men. Racial minorities used to feel "victimized" until we had Affirmative Action and Brown v Board of Education. Yet blacks and Latinos still face an uphill battle, all the way around, even though collectively they make the white male a minority. Homosexuals used to be "victims" of discrimination, and they still are, even though we're supposedly all "equal."

I get a perverse kick out of billionaires and Wall Street moguls whining about being put upon, in taxation proposals, as if they're the new minority to be made "victims". The uber wealthy feels victimized, as if they have no power or voice, and no one understands just how difficult their wealthy favoritism has been. The big corporations and CEOs say they're the new "victims" of political populism, and laws that will impede GROWTH FOR EVERYONE! when the punchbowl stops their free Kool-Aid flow. After all, if they have to pay 3% more in taxes, they may not be able to hire Rosario as their nanny, or send their kids to private schools at $20,000/yr/child. *they may only have ONE summer home, not two. They may have to pay a decent wage to their lawn-mower or horse-groomer, they may have to give up using the corporate jet to Bermuda*

And everyone down the line will "suffer", as victims.

[Hazir]

No, this is just a rehash of the same discussion. Not interesting enough.

[GGT]

No, this is just a rehash of the same discussion. Not interesting enough.

What's that mean, not "interesting enough"?

According to your most recent post, there may be plenty of "victims" of your friend's sexual addiction, or maybe he's a "victim" of his own addiction?

Just because I'm the majority poster in this thread doesn't mean I know everything about "victimization", ya know. It's a wide open topic. It's a general topic in General Chat, for a reason.



See, it might go like this: you say X number of sex partners per week sounds extreme, lolli agrees. But it's in the context of that number would indicate a professional sex provider. The unspoken gist is that professionals are okay with that X number of sex partners, but casual participants may not be. Enter the sex addict. What's the magic number? Who decides and how? Who's the victim....if there is one?

Sex addicts are probably victims of something, just as professional hookers might be. There could be a "victim" everywhere we look, if we look closely enough. So how do we define "Victimhood" without diluting its meaning?

[GGT]

It's also fascinating to see how people define "victims" or how to avoid being one. Lewk, for example, seems to believe that all bad things and accidents, even quirks of nature, can be actuarial-ized, with a plethora of insurance products. If you build or live by the ocean, buy hurricane and flood insurance. If you live in tornado alley, buy a product that covers both wind and flooding. (Never mind that insurance has an Act of God indemnity clause.) If you want health care, buy health insurance. If you drive a car, buy auto collision and liability. ETC.

The extrapolation is.....if you have potential risk or danger in your life (and who doesn't) if you didn't buy a private product to keep you from litigation or bankruptcy, then it's your own damn fault. You were just being stupid, and you don't "deserve" help of any kind. Burn with your house, go bankrupt with your cancer, die with your STD, don't complain about corporate pollution or poisoning, let your kids suffer for having dumb parents who had more mouths than they could feed, don't complain. You voted for it, you got it.....Social Darwinism.

[GGT]

Gonna bump my own thread for a new-ish tangent. Probably best to keep these things in one thread (like kat)

Was chatting with oldmunchkin about addictive behaviors. (Reminiscent of the old forum where we had a long debate about that. So this is a re-hash or a re-mix?)

She doesn't believe in addictions. Rather, that "addictions" are something created by pharmaceutical companies, or pop-psychologists to brainwash us to use their products or services. People can simply stop using or doing things that hurt them, mind over matter. I suppose that's her basic premise?

It's odd, coming from a person who uses more substances (prescribed and otherwise) and whines more about being a victim than anyone here. No such thing as an addict, but victims are very real. Addicts just need bootstraps and conviction of character, but victims need.....more than bootstraps and determination?

[oldmunchkin]

We have become a society of "victims". It has become a popular theme almost everywhere, from the news shows to the uber-rich. Hell, from what I can tell, everyone is a victim of something. If you don't think so, just ask around, or listen to the news!

IMO, we (especially in America) go overboard with trying to protect everyone from something or someone! We have to saddle ourselves with fear just to go to the grocery store where, OMFG, there are other people and germs and things like open bins of peanuts that might make our child sick. (Yes, I know peanut allergies are deadly, so don't think I am being a smart-ass here. I just think that, if you know your child is allergic, either don't take them to the store or make sure they stay out of whatever section of the store the peanuts are in. Speaking of peanut allergies, what about these schools that aren't allowed to serve or use any peanut product, because of one child out of 350 (or more) has an allergy to them? Aren't the rest of the students victims because they can't have a PB&J for lunch?)

And, make sure you are strapped in, buckled in, have your helmets on, your headlights on, and always obey all the traffic laws! Because if you don't, someone is bound to be a victim of your trip to the store! If you have an accident and your child isn't in a car seat, you are at fault, and your child is a victim of child abuse, even if you didn't cause the accident! I wonder if some brain-dead politician will decide the best thing is for a child NEVER to ride in a motorized vehicle, because it would make them safe? You know, pass another law for the sole purpose of getting your name in the papers/on the news, under the guise of "child safety"!

Realistically, I know that's not going to happen, but sometimes it feels like that is the direction we are going, especially in America. Someone, somewhere, will always think that another law will make us all safer and make sure there are no victims, especially not children.

GGT, rape victims (yes, they are victims in the true sense of the word) still have their clothing at the time of the attack, their sexual history, etc, dragged out in court. I can't find it right now, but some defense attorney a while back tried to say a lady was "asking for it" because she had her nightgown on when the man attacked. FFS, it was like 3AM and she was in bed sleeping when he broke into her house. Hell yes, she had on appropriate apparel for sleeping.

In the case of the mortgage issues...ugh! If both the borrower and the lender thought it was a good thing to loan someone $750,000 on a $20,000 a year salary, then they are both idiots. Sure, in some cases, the borrowers were victims, but mainly when it came to the interest rates rising without notice and such like that. For the most part, I think both sides were at fault.

Gonna bump my own thread for a new-ish tangent. Probably best to keep these things in one thread (like kat)

Was chatting with oldmunchkin about addictive behaviors. (Reminiscent of the old forum where we had a long debate about that. So this is a re-hash or a re-mix?)

She doesn't believe in addictions. Rather, that "addictions" are something created by pharmaceutical companies, or pop-psychologists to brainwash us to use their products or services. People can simply stop using or doing things that hurt them, mind over matter. I suppose that's her basic premise?

No, what I said was "addictions" are mental issues, not physical ones. We have hashed this over before, and I still haven't changed my mind. Yes, your brain can tell you that you need that pill or whatever. In those cases, you need to retrain your brain! Did I say that was easy? No!

I also know that I am going to get slammed for that statement by someone! You know why I know that? Because, since a great many of our members are younger, they have had the "OMG, beware of that, you will become addicted!" and "OMG, if you feel in the least bit slighted, or had your feeling hurt, you are a victim!" and shit like that crammed down their throats since birth! In fact, I remember some of it starting when I was a kid. I know by the time The Kid was in school, they were already brainwashing the little boys and girls to toe the party line.

It's odd, coming from a person who uses more substances (prescribed and otherwise) and whines more about being a victim than anyone here. No such thing as an addict, but victims are very real. Addicts just need bootstraps and conviction of character, but victims need.....more than bootstraps and determination?

I know you think all of my problems stem from my medications. I also know that you think my illness(es) are "all in my head" and I should just go "detox" and "start over from scratch". I would love to start over, not have a back injury, not need meds, and be able to live a perfectly normal life. You know, normal...like working, bringing in an income (wouldn't have to be much) to support myself with no help from anyone. If it was as easy as you say it is, I would stop the meds tomorrow and get on with life. Unfortunately for you, as well as me, all the "mind over matter" in the world is not going to heal the nerve in my back. So, until you find a way to psychically, or psychologically, do that, don't try to pretend it is. For some reason, you seem to think that, if I give myself over to some psychologist, my health problems will go away. All I see going away in that scenario is money that could be better used for something else.

[GGT]

Way to bastardize our msn chats, munch.

Not worth the effort to quote/reply. You've made up your mind that pain meds can't be addictive. Those things are just a figment of the mind, in your mind. But you're okay with being dependent on pain killers, or booze, or a boyfriend, or the gummint. When push comes to shove, you even try to blame your life problems on being an American Indian. You're always calling yourself a Victim of something or other. Addicted to claiming victimhood. Your chemical addictions prop that up and keep your dependency claims sound legitimate, in your mind, in a never-ending loop of negative feedback. It's pretty classic. That's all I was trying to tell you.

[oldmunchkin]

Way to bastardize our msn chats, munch.

Not worth the effort to quote/reply. You've made up your mind that pain meds can't be addictive. Those things are just a figment of the mind, in your mind. But you're okay with being dependent on pain killers, or booze, or a boyfriend, or the gummint. When push comes to shove, you even try to blame your life problems on being an American Indian. You're always calling yourself a Victim of something or other. Addicted to claiming victimhood. Your chemical addictions prop that up and keep your dependency claims sound legitimate, in your mind, in a never-ending loop of negative feedback. It's pretty classic. That's all I was trying to tell you.

I don't ever recall saying I was a victim of anything but my own stupidity at times!

Just what the fuck makes you think I enjoy having to depend on anyone or anything? Do you really think I like having to ask The Friend to pay my bills? Do you really think I like having to ask the government for assistance? So you really think I like being in the physical shape I'm in? If you think that, then you have lost your mind!

You have decided that: 1) I'm an alcoholic, 2) I am addicted to pain meds, 3) I think I am a victim, and 4) I must need a shrink!

1) I drink because I enjoy it. I drink because I like the social aspect of it. I admit that, for a time before I saw the doctor, I drank to help kill the pain in my back. I have proven, to many people, that I can, and do, quit for long periods of time (18 months to 3 years or more) with no ill effects whatsoever, other than being bored to tears sitting at home with nothing to do and no one to talk to.

2)We have discussed this. I take the Lyrica exactly as prescribed, because if I don't, that damned nerve swells back up and my leg goes numb and I trouble sitting, standing, or walking. The Hydrocodone I take as needed. I get a prescription for 4 pills a day, for 30 days. I had them refilled Oct. 6. The last refill before that was filled Aug. 15. That's pretty damned close to twice as long as the doctor felt I could/should need them.

3)I don't know where you are getting this. I am the one that has done the majority of the damage to my body. As I said above, I am a victim of my own stupidity in many ways. As far as societal, yes, I am a minority...just by being female. Does that mean I am a victim? Should I sue my biological Mother for not making sure she carried a boy instead of me?

4)I don't understand the modern need to run out and bare my soul to some stranger, just because I am having a difficult patch in my life. If I was depressed or had PTSD or some other mental issue, you damned right I would be seeing someone. Those are honestly psychological issues that need dealt with by a mental health professional! My issues are physical not mental!

[GGT]

Maybe you need to look up Lyrica and how it works, for starts.

Your "difficult patch" looks like a decades-long repetitive cycle, for seconds.

I still say you're ignoring "mental issues" while giving credence to physical ones, when it suits your needs. If you can ride on motorcycles or take long car/truck rides to go play, that's a rather big red flag. It's not about baring your soul to a stranger, but finding a solution to your (cyclical) problems. You may have an idea that physical needs are more valid than emotional ones, I don't know, I'm not a fucking therapist.

I just know that what you've been doing for years obviously isn't working, but you keep repeating the cycle. Expecting to be taken seriously as a "victim" of something beyond your control (like physical pain, which is also subjective) yet trying to get on Disability. Then complaining how you're a "victim" of a system that won't declare you disabled.

IMO you're not really Disabled, but physically and emotionally challenged. That's actually a good thing. You're not blind or deaf, elderly or incapacitated, terminally ill, mentally retarded, or a quad in a wheelchair. You are intelligent and have a high speed computer. Your "haves" outweigh your "have-nots". So far, that says you're only a victim if you think so. But now we're back to how to define being a victim vs an addict, or a victim of addictions.

[oldmunchkin]

For starters, I have read almost everything I can find on Lyrica. Do you really think I am stupid enough to take something I don't know about?

Second, you seem to think I have some sort of "cyclical" illness? That somehow, like clockwork, my mind/body falls apart on a set schedule?

As far as the bike/car/truck trips, let me try to explain something to you. The farthest I have gone on a bike this year was about 15 miles. When we turned around, I got off and walked for a few minutes, and did some stretching that the physical therapist showed me to do. The car/truck trips are just about the same as far as me getting out and moving around for a while. Plus, the air-ride seat in the truck is probably more comfortable than any chair you have in your house. It automatically conforms to fit your body and your weight, for maximum comfort! You also must have noticed I haven't gone on more than the one trip to Denver in the truck, because he is on a time schedule, and I have to be able to get out and move around more often than the schedule allows for. Car trips, since there isn't a schedule, is a bit different. Everyone I go anywhere with knows my problem, and stops frequently for me to get out. Do I pay for those little pleasures later? You damned right I do. Do I think it's worth it to get out of town for a little while? Hell yes!

Am I a bit angry at "the system" right now? Yes. When I see people pretend to have serious disorders like PTSD so they can get disability, yet I can't get it for a documented physical disability, it pisses me off no end! I was told by the doctor that SS had me see (their choosing) that, if I had come to the appointment drunk, I would have qualified right then! Jesus Christ! If you think that's the way "the system" is supposed to work, you are wrong!

Of course you think everyone should pay more attention to emotional issues than to physical ones. We have discussed that before too. I think it's our upbringings. I was brought up to cry/scream/rant/rave/whatever and then move on with life. You were brought up to go crying to your therapist every time someone hurt your feelings. It's the difference in physical regions. You were in a more urban area than I was, even in the mid-west where you grew up. There was more accessibility to doctors of all kinds, including mental health professionals. Then there is always the...people who live in more urban areas tend to be more into the "touchy-feely" shit! Don't get me wrong, there are many people who need mental health care, and there are many serious types of mental health diseases, it's just that NOT every problem is solved by "talk therapy"!

[GGT]

For starters, I have read almost everything I can find on Lyrica. Do you really think I am stupid enough to take something I don't know about?

I think you expect it to perform miracles. It's not going to stop nerve "swelling", as you suggested.



[snip]

Am I a bit angry at "the system" right now? Yes. When I see people pretend to have serious disorders like PTSD so they can get disability, yet I can't get it for a documented physical disability, it pisses me off no end! I was told by the doctor that SS had me see (their choosing) that, if I had come to the appointment drunk, I would have qualified right then! Jesus Christ! If you think that's the way "the system" is supposed to work, you are wrong!

Again, you see yourself as a victim of our safety net system. Everyone else is just abusing it? FFS!

Of course you think everyone should pay more attention to emotional issues than to physical ones. We have discussed that before too. I think it's our upbringings. I was brought up to cry/scream/rant/rave/whatever and then move on with life. You were brought up to go crying to your therapist every time someone hurt your feelings. It's the difference in physical regions. You were in a more urban area than I was, even in the mid-west where you grew up. There was more accessibility to doctors of all kinds, including mental health professionals. Then there is always the...people who live in more urban areas tend to be more into the "touchy-feely" shit! Don't get me wrong, there are many people who need mental health care, and there are many serious types of mental health diseases, it's just that NOT every problem is solved by "talk therapy"!

How are you whining but moving on?

Right, you're a victim of your upbringing, or Wyoming; a place you keep choosing to live, by the people that brought you up. Then you can insinuate that I, as an urban or suburban person, just runs to a therapist when our feelings are hurt. Only urbanites or suburbanites cry wah wah, poor me, pity me? Only people like you suffer real pain or challenges? You're just a VICTIM of Wyoming, or your upbringing?

Would that be because you did not have access to mental health professionals? Do you think they don't matter because you never had access to them? How big are your cowboy bootstraps again?

[oldmunchkin]

I think you expect it to perform miracles. It's not going to stop nerve "swelling", as you suggested.

No. But I do know that it reduces the pain and the numbness in my back/hip/leg, which in turn helps reduce the swelling.

Second, you seem to think I have some sort of "cyclical" illness? That somehow, like clockwork, my mind/body falls apart on a set schedule?

[snip]

huh?

Again, you see yourself as a victim of our safety net system. Everyone else is just abusing it? FFS!

I do NOT see myself as a victim. I just see myself as a "gap" person. You know, the ones who fall between the cracks because no one is paying attention. Trust me, I am not the only one out here! If no one stands up for themselves, no one makes a few waves and some noise, the gap keeps getting ignored!

How are you whining but moving on?

Right, you're a victim of your upbringing, or Wyoming; a place you keep choosing to live, by the people that brought you up. Then you can insinuate that I, as an urban or suburban person, just runs to a therapist when our feelings are hurt. Only urbanites or suburbanites cry wah wah, poor me, pity me? Only people like you suffer real pain or challenges? You're just a VICTIM of Wyoming, or your upbringing?

Would that be because you did not have access to mental health professionals? Do you think they don't matter because you never had access to them? How big are your cowboy bootstraps again?

You are the one pushing the mental health talk therapy shit! Haven't you heard, getting it out of your system helps! It allows you to vent all your anger and frustration and then try to move on. Of course, moving on, in your opinion, means I should just ignore my physical problems, go talk to some person who has NO idea what it's like to be the patient, quit my meds, and go back to work. Yeah, right! Great idea. I'll do that tomorrow! By Monday I will be insane with pain, and the fucking therapist will tell me "it's all in my head"! What part of, I have a documented physical problem with my back don't you understand?

I have never said urban people didn't experience real pain or challenges! You are the one that is reading shit into it that was never said. I said...access to mental health care was more readily available where you grew up and where you live now! Yes, there is more of a stigma attached to mental health care here, but that doesn't mean I have never availed myself to those services...when I needed them! At the present time, there is no need to run myself into medical bankruptcy for something I don't need.

The only thing I am a "victim" of is bad fucking luck. I am the one that fell off the ladder! At the moment, although you are berating me for not feeling well enough to keep arguing with you, I do NOT feel well at all. I have spent three fucking days in the bathroom, not being able to hold down food or liquids for more than about 30 minutes, fighting either hot flashes or a fever, and having wonderful pains in my stomach. I feel like trying to sleep for a change. Since I can't see a doctor at this time, the best medicine I know of is rest!

[GGT]

Was a glitch on the quote function. I edited.

Lyrica will not reduce inflammation, it's not a steroid or NSAID. But I think you may be "addicted" to it mentally, almost like a placebo effect, even though it won't address real vertebral or disk damage that you say you have.

At least you admit that your Wyoming attitude is leery of mental health services, because they weren't common in your state. I've told you for years that vertebral disk problems can be alleviated without meds or surgery, but you just say I'm some urban elitist. For generations people have learned how to reduce back pain. Only recently have we turned toward surgeons or pharmaceuticals.

Back pain is a truly hard and horrible problem, that's true. But as long as you think surgery is your magic bullet, and the only reason you can't have that surgery is because you are a Victim of a flawed system, and the only solace you can find is from pharmaceuticals, then nothing I say will make an impact.

[oldmunchkin]

Was a glitch on the quote function. I edited.

Lyrica will not reduce inflammation, it's not a steroid or NSAID. But I think you may be "addicted" to it mentally, almost like a placebo effect, even though it won't address real vertebral or disk damage that you say you have.

Alleviating pain causes me to be able to go walking or whatever, which in turn, strengthens the muscles around the area. Not being able to feel my foot or leg, which is what happens without it, does tend to make me a tad bit clumsy too. Then I am known to fall down and make things worse for myself. You can't have it both ways, I'm sorry. The physical benefits outweigh any side effects the Lyrica causes, IMO.

At least you admit that your Wyoming attitude is leery of mental health services, because they weren't common in your state. I've told you for years that vertebral disk problems can be alleviated without meds or surgery, but you just say I'm some urban elitist. For generations people have learned how to reduce back pain. Only recently have we turned toward surgeons or pharmaceuticals.

Back pain is a truly hard and horrible problem, that's true. But as long as you think surgery is your magic bullet, and the only reason you can't have that surgery is because you are a Victim of a flawed system, and the only solace you can find is from pharmaceuticals, then nothing I say will make an impact.

You just bitched at me because I don't start off every post with "Hey, GGT! I did my exercises this morning, just like the physical therapist told me to do!". Well then, lets try this. Every day, two times a day, religiously, I do the exercises that I was taught to do. I also use walking, heat, and ice to help when I can. If you really think I want to have someone cutting into my back, you are nuts! Actually, the last time I saw the nerve specialist, he was amazed I was still able to get around as well as I do.

For some reason, you act as if every thing I say is just an excuse! I am tired, it's an excuse not to post anymore. I am hurting, it's just an excuse to play the "sympathy" card. I need help to continue on with life as I know it, it's just an excuse to play "victim". Well, bullshit. If I have a valid reason for something, it is NOT an excuse!

[GGT]

Alleviating pain causes me to be able to go walking or whatever, which in turn, strengthens the muscles around the area. Not being able to feel my foot or leg, which is what happens without it, does tend to make me a tad bit clumsy too. Then I am known to fall down and make things worse for myself. You can't have it both ways, I'm sorry. The physical benefits outweigh any side effects the Lyrica causes, IMO.

That's not how Lyrica works. It won't give you sensation when neural pathways are blocked. It may reduce an over-active neural pathway that translates to your brain as "pain". But it sure as hell won't make a bum leg suddenly have sensation, let alone make your limbs "work". If you know of some break thru use for Lyrica that makes numb limbs operate normally, you should be telling your doctors so they can write a huge paper espousing its magical properties.

[snip]

If I have a valid reason for something, it is NOT an excuse!

Right. Your valid reasons don't seem so valid, when the big picture is considered. You have more options than excuses, but that doesn't matter to you. Victimhood doesn't work that way, when excuses are used. You have an excuse for everything. Genetic parents, being adopted, the parents who raised you, the culture of Wyoming, your ex-husbands, fighting against the world's injustices toward women/adoptees/Indians/wild west mentality, the whole shebang.

You've got it covered, a victim in every way. Until you're asked to defend your choices and what you CAN control, or why you don't act on suggestions. Why you don't search for free support groups on-line as readily as you use this forum for your pity posts, I don't know. Maybe it feels better for you to tell me I just don't understand, because I've never been a victim of things like you have.

BS is still shit, no matter how you try and dress it up.

[Veldan Rath]

...Even our resident Libertarian (Veldan Rath) recognizes we're a nation of laws. ...

WTF is this even our resident Libertarian crap?

Are you still this f-ing confused on what Libertarians believe? You are treading goddamn close to Lewk and his DURRRR Liberals!...

[Being]

WTF is this even our resident Libertarian crap?

If the shoe fits...

Libertarians support maximum liberty in both personal and economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence. Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.

[Veldan Rath]

If the shoe fits...

Oh please...go screw.

Where in the 'quote' you posted, would lead GGT or anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together to think that Libertarians don't believe in the Rule of Law?

[GGT]

WTF is this even our resident Libertarian crap?

I was using you as a rational Libertarian, compared to some of the loonies out there.

Are you still this f-ing confused on what Libertarians believe? You are treading goddamn close to Lewk and his DURRRR Liberals!...

Uh, no....but there's a lot of schizoid politics out there! Like Tea Partiers (who claim to be Libertarians) holding signs "Government: don't touch my Medicare!"