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Thread: Suppose the unthinkable happens...

  1. #1

    Default Suppose the unthinkable happens...

    ... and terrorists struck New York or another big city with an atom bomb.

    Hunker down if you want to survive.

    In June, the administration released to emergency officials around the nation an unclassified planning guide 130 pages long on how to respond to a nuclear attack. It stressed citizen education, before any attack.
    The Obama administration is preparing a separate, more detailed communications guide for state and local authorities.
    In 2007, Congress appropriated $5.5 million for studies on atomic disaster planning, noting that “cities have little guidance available to them.”
    The big surprise was how taking shelter for as little as several hours made a huge difference in survival rates.


    I guess I'll be carrying my solar blanket from now on.
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  2. #2
    Britain released a series of public information leaflets and broadcasts firstly in 1962, then again in 1980, to protect people from nuclear attack during the cold war.

    Here are a couple of the broadcasts from 1980; called Protect and Survive.



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    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

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  3. #3
    Why does the top one involve an iPod Nano?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    ... and terrorists struck New York or another big city with an atom bomb.
    I generally don't worry about it because unless its a rather low yield nuclear device I'm either going to be vaporized by the detonation, baked by the light/heat blast, or die from radiation exposure either from the initial blast, or if the wind is flowing west to east that day, from the eventual nuclear fallout. Either that or be trapped on an island. Its fun all around really.
    . . .

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions
    baked by the light/heat blast,
    Depending on just how far you are, this won't be a pleasant way to go. A lot of the Japs who got hit basically had their skin boil right off of them, and died in agony as a result. Vaporisation or being crushed by buildings are your best bets.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    I generally don't worry about it because unless its a rather low yield nuclear device I'm either going to be vaporized by the detonation, baked by the light/heat blast, or die from radiation exposure either from the initial blast, or if the wind is flowing west to east that day, from the eventual nuclear fallout. Either that or be trapped on an island. Its fun all around really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Depending on just how far you are, this won't be a pleasant way to go. A lot of the Japs who got hit basically had their skin boil right off of them, and died in agony as a result. Vaporisation or being crushed by buildings are your best bets.
    RE Burned Japanese people: Yeah, many they lived for the better part of a day, their skin sloughing off exposing the muscle and flesh beneath.

    RE Fallout: It's no big deal if you can stay inside for a couple weeks. Don't flush your toilet. Hmmm. But in NYC, that's not going to be an option I don't think....

    If a rudimentary bomb went off in Manhattan and you happened to be there, you'd be totally fucked no matter what. If you were in a building, you'd be exposed to the flash, the shock wave and/or the resulting fire storm in that order. Fallout wouldn't be a problem because you wouldn't live long enough to die from exposure to it.

    If you were lucky enough to be in the subway, or some other underground area, you would avoid the first three assuming the bomb didn't go off right overhead and/or collapsing buildings don't smash through to the subsurface. And being underground, you have a safe place to be for the two weeks it would take for the fallout to decay below lethality.

    However, the problem with that is water. From what I've read the NYC subway system, sans electricity to run sump pumps, would flood over a period of days. So if you didn't want to drown, you would have to go top-side where the firestorm might still be winding down. And if fire wasn't a major issue then, depending on the wind, you'd face exposure to hard radiation. Finally, if the wind was right, you still have to get out of a wrecked, probably lawless megalopolis unharmed and who knows what sort of challenges that would present. Bummer.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Depending on just how far you are, this won't be a pleasant way to go. A lot of the Japs who got hit basically had their skin boil right off of them, and died in agony as a result. Vaporisation or being crushed by buildings are your best bets.
    Less than 25 - 30 miles from mid-town Manhattan. I'm also aware of the unpleasantness of being baked alive, but its not like I'd know the blast was coming, or be able to run from it once I saw it. This was actually a one time dream I had, that I'd survived a nuclear bomb going off in NYC since I was at home, but for the duration of the dream I was blind, in pain, and dying of radiation poisoning, alone, in a corner of my basement.
    . . .

  8. #8
    That's nice.
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  9. #9
    Yeah that's pretty fucked up dude
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Evidently Supermarioman's Avatar
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    I'm far enough away from Atlanta proper to live through the blast with little trouble, but close enough that I'll still be in deep poo poo.
    I enjoy blank walls.

  11. #11
    In school we learned, that simply crouching under your desk can protect you from nuclear blasts and natural disasters of all sorts.

    The Ostrich defense.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    That's nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Yeah that's pretty fucked up dude
    Yeah, pretty much.
    . . .

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Crowheart View Post
    In school we learned, that simply crouching under your desk can protect you from nuclear blasts and natural disasters of all sorts.
    You might want to add a solar blanket.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  14. #14
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Less than 25 - 30 miles from mid-town Manhattan. I'm also aware of the unpleasantness of being baked alive, but its not like I'd know the blast was coming, or be able to run from it once I saw it. This was actually a one time dream I had, that I'd survived a nuclear bomb going off in NYC since I was at home, but for the duration of the dream I was blind, in pain, and dying of radiation poisoning, alone, in a corner of my basement.
    That's quite far enough to safely survive a nuclear blast from a terrorist nuclear bomb.

    Please remember, that those devices most likely will be in the Kiloton-range, which means that lethal effects will be "only" existing in a range in the single digit kilometers. Still large, but not something which will completely annihilate Manhattan. Furthermore, the firestorms in Japan stemmed from the fact that they used a whole lot of wood to build their homes.

    When you near the Megaton scale, it's a completely different matter, though.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Crowheart View Post
    In school we learned, that simply crouching under your desk can protect you from nuclear blasts and natural disasters of all sorts.

    The Ostrich defense.
    Same here. Duck and Cover. Remember those films they'd show at school?

    <I suppose the next step will be our schools adding this kind of thing to their Emergency Planning, along with fire drills, post-911 Lock Down procedures and Code Red Alerts.>

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Furthermore, the firestorms in Japan stemmed from the fact that they used a whole lot of wood to build their homes.
    IIRC Hiroshima was something like 13kt.

    I read the time of day of the bombing made a big difference too. All those wood homes were knocked over while indoor cooking fires were warming morning tea and such. But for comparison, Dresden wasn't especially woody, was it? Otoh those were firebombs, with the intent of setting fires, spread over a wide area. Hmmmm. I'm not sure there's enough data to decide what would happen if a dozen kts were set off in an urban landscape like Manhatton.

    A megaton bomb set off in manhatton would be a catastrophe beyond belief. A 13kt bomb would surely be a catastrophe beyond belief. But I think you're right. Depending on wind and so on, he might not even have to leave his home at that distance if it was a 'smaller' yield bomb.
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  17. #17
    ....and the whole thing is set on its ear with a big Dirty Bomb, or a Biological weapon.

  18. #18
    Bio weapon is no big deal. There's nothing like King's Superflu out there. And Dirty bomb is nothing compared to an actual nuke.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Bio weapon is no big deal. There's nothing like King's Superflu out there. And Dirty bomb is nothing compared to an actual nuke.
    Really? Then why do all the elderly or immune-fragile people flock to the newest flu vaccine? Why does our CDC or NIH spend millions of man hours and dollars trying to find the next virus or vaccine, preventing the next pandemic? The flu of 1912 (or whatever the date was) killed millions of people across the globe. Biologicals have killed more than any atomic bomb.

  20. #20
    And then you people wonder why I like living in BFE?

    If it happened, I am pretty much far enough away to avoid most of the initial blast and the fall-out!
    I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Really? Then why do all the elderly or immune-fragile people flock to the newest flu vaccine?
    Um, because they're old and fragile and they don't to die. Duh. Did you read the Stand? It wasn't about old people.
    Why does our CDC or NIH spend millions of man hours and dollars trying to find the next virus or vaccine, preventing the next pandemic?
    Because that's their job. And the great flu pandemic was a big deal. Note, they're not worried - publicly - about bioweapons. Remember the anthrax mailings? Wooo. Scary. It took a whole lot of effort to attack a few people - nothing at all compared to 9/11. And hardly an afterthought compared to an actual nuclear bomb going off in a city.
    Biologicals have killed more than any atomic bomb.
    Except that those biologicals were naturally occuring diseases and the atomic bomb is a man-engineered weapon. Big huge difference.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by oldmunchkin View Post
    And then you people wonder why I like living in BFE?

    If it happened, I am pretty much far enough away to avoid most of the initial blast and the fall-out!
    You people? YOU people?
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  23. #23
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    ....and the whole thing is set on its ear with a big Dirty Bomb, or a Biological weapon.
    And dirty bombs are hardly that bad either. It takes a lot more effort, increases your chances of being caught by a huge amount, and it has hardly any effect at all (IIRC something like 5% extra casualties). First of all it isn't spread very effectively, and second of all.. it's slow. If you wait for the dirty bomb to cause cancer to kill people, a big portion of victims will die of natural causes before that happens.

    And while it is relatively easy to smuggle explosives, weapons or terrorists in to a country, smuggling radioactive stuff is tricky. I know that at least in Dutch harbours hardly any containers are fully checked, but they are all scanned for radiation.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    And dirty bombs are hardly that bad either. It takes a lot more effort, increases your chances of being caught by a huge amount, and it has hardly any effect at all (IIRC something like 5% extra casualties). First of all it isn't spread very effectively, and second of all.. it's slow. If you wait for the dirty bomb to cause cancer to kill people, a big portion of victims will die of natural causes before that happens.

    And while it is relatively easy to smuggle explosives, weapons or terrorists in to a country, smuggling radioactive stuff is tricky. I know that at least in Dutch harbours hardly any containers are fully checked, but they are all scanned for radiation.
    I think the real damage from a dirty bomb is some chunk of urban area contaminated with radioactive material. That's going to disrupt things while its cleaned up. And because they can't see it, people find it scary. Its much more about fear than real danger.

    Also, here's a new leak relavent to the terrorists using bio-weapons:

    Leak: US fears theft of bioweapons from India labs

    By RAVI NESSMAN, Associated Press Ravi Nessman, Associated Press – 2 hrs 13 mins ago
    U.S. officials fear lax security at Indian laboratories could make the facilities targets for terrorists seeking biological weapons to launch attacks across the globe, according to comments in a leaked U.S. diplomatic cable made public Friday.

    The cable was part of a trove of documents sent from the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi that was obtained by the website WikiLeaks and published Friday by the British newspaper The Guardian.

    The cables also dealt with accusations of Indian torture in Kashmir, India's complaints about Pakistan's handling of the Mumbai terror attacks, and the concerns of Rahul Gandhi— seen as India's prime-minister-in-waiting — that Hindu extremists posed a greater danger to India than Islamist militants.

    One of the cables from June 2006 raised concerns that terrorist groups could take advantage of weak security at Indian laboratories to steal "bacteria, parasites, viruses or toxins."

    "Terrorists planning attacks anywhere in the world could use India's advanced biotechnology industry and large biomedical research community as potential sources of biological agents," read the cable, marked "confidential." "Given the strong air connections Delhi shares with the rest of the world and the vulnerabilities that might be exploited at airports, a witting or unwitting person could easily take hazardous materials into or out of the country."

    "Getting into a facility to obtain lethal bio-agents is not very difficult here," one expert, whose name was redacted from the cable, told U.S. diplomats.

    A second expert said that academic research facilities maintain only very loose security procedures. "The harsh reality is that you can bribe a guard with a pack of cigarettes to get inside," the expert was quoted as saying.

    One source told the diplomats that India's thousands of biological scientists also might be recruited, either out of ideological sympathies or for money.

    An Indian government official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly address the issue, dismissed the concerns as "far-fetched and fanciful."

    However, Suman Sahai, a biotechnology expert, told The Associated Press that security remains very poor at biotech firms four years after the cable was written.

    The regulatory system is porous, employees are easily influenced and those leaving public laboratories to work for private companies often steal seeds, genetic material and other sensitive property before they head out the door, she said.

    While India has not been the target of a biological attack, it has suffered devastating conventional terror strikes, including a 2001 attack on its parliament and the 2008 attack by 10 Pakistan-based militants who laid siege to the city of Mumbai for 60 hours.

    Indian officials made it clear that they were focusing more on a possible nuclear or chemical attack — presumably from longtime rival Pakistan — than a biological one, which they considered unlikely to happen, the cable read.

    India's surveillance system and its public health system were ill-prepared for the possibility of such an attack, the cable said.

    While many countries are poorly prepared for a bioterror attack, the cable said, "few live in the kind of dangerous neighborhood that India does, where terrorism, lax security, petty corruption, high population density, weak public health and agricultural infrastructures, and a booming and sophisticated biotech industry coexist."
    Link for more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101217/...ikileaks_india
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by oldmunchkin View Post
    And then you people wonder why I like living in BFE?

    If it happened, I am pretty much far enough away to avoid most of the initial blast and the fall-out!
    Well said! "I live in a shit hole to avoid the tiny chance I might be discomfitted by a terrorist attack!"

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