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Thread: Liberals And Public Transportation

  1. #1

    Default Liberals And Public Transportation

    http://www.newsweek.com/2011/02/27/h...nsolvency.html

    Generations hence, when the river of time has worn this presidency’s importance to a small, smooth pebble in the stream of history, people will still marvel that its defining trait was a mania for high-speed rail projects. This disorder illuminates the progressive mind.

    Remarkably widespread derision has greeted the Obama administration’s damn-the-arithmetic-full-speed-ahead proposal to spend $53 billion more (after the $8 billion in stimulus money and $2.4 billion in enticements to 23 states) in the next six years pursuant to the president’s loopy goal of giving “80 percent of Americans access to high-speed rail.” “Access” and “high-speed” to be defined later.

    Criticism of this optional and irrational spending—meaning: borrowing —during a deficit crisis has been withering. Only an administration blinkered by ideology would persist.

    Florida’s new Republican governor, Rick Scott, has joined Ohio’s (John Kasich) and Wisconsin’s (Scott Walker) in rejecting federal incentives—more than $2 billion in Florida’s case—to begin a high-speed rail project. Florida’s 84-mile line, which would have run parallel to Interstate 4, would have connected Tampa and Orlando. One preposterous projection was that it would attract 3 million passengers a year—almost as many as ride Amtrak’s Acela in the densely populated Boston–New York–Washington corridor.

    The three governors want to spare their states from paying the much larger sums likely to be required for construction-cost overruns and operating subsidies when ridership projections prove to be delusional. Kasich and Walker, who were elected promising to stop the nonsense, asked Washington for permission to use the high-speed-rail money for more pressing transportation needs than a train running along Interstate 71 between Cleveland and Cincinnati, or a train parallel to Interstate 94 between Milwaukee and Madison. Washington, disdaining the decisions of Ohio and Wisconsin voters, replied that it will find states that will waste the money.

    California will. Although prostrate from its own profligacy, it will sink tens of billions of its own taxpayers’ money in the 616-mile San Francisco–to–San Diego line. Supposedly 39 million people will eagerly pay much more than an airfare in order to travel slower. Between 2008 and 2009, the projected cost increased from $33 billion to $42.6 billion.

    Randal O’Toole of the Cato Institute notes that high-speed rail connects big-city downtowns, where only 7 percent of Americans work and 1 percent live. “The average intercity auto trip today uses less energy per passenger mile than the average Amtrak train.” And high speed will not displace enough cars to measurably reduce congestion. The Washington Post says China’s fast trains are priced beyond ordinary workers’ budgets, and that France, like Japan, has only one profitable line.

    So why is America’s “win the future” administration so fixated on railroads, a technology that was the future two centuries ago? Because progressivism’s aim is the modification of (other people’s) behavior.

    Forever seeking Archimedean levers for prying the world in directions they prefer, progressives say they embrace high-speed rail for many reasons—to improve the climate, increase competitiveness, enhance national security, reduce congestion, and rationalize land use. The length of the list of reasons, and the flimsiness of each, points to this conclusion: the real reason for progressives’ passion for trains is their goal of diminishing Americans’ individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism.

    To progressives, the best thing about railroads is that people riding them are not in automobiles, which are subversive of the deference on which progressivism depends. Automobiles go hither and yon, wherever and whenever the driver desires, without timetables. Automobiles encourage people to think they—unsupervised, untutored, and unscripted—are masters of their fates. The automobile encourages people in delusions of adequacy, which make them resistant to government by experts who know what choices people should make.

    Time was, the progressive cry was “Workers of the world unite!” or “Power to the people!” Now it is less resonant: “All aboard!”


    ******************

    I agree with the author. Liberals love the idea of dependence on the government. I've brought it up on this forum before but I wonder if liberals flock to cities or if cities create liberals. In rural area people are more independent. I don't mean in terms of federal subsidies (since we ridiculous agricultural subsidies in this country) but in every day life. I mean in terms of daily life. In a city you *need* the government to do certain basic things. Police are more important. Bus / Subway routes become more important.

    Do you think independence breeds conservatives and dependence breeds liberalism? Sure other factors will apply but if all things were equal I would say that the more urban the populace the more liberal they will be due to their environment.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Do you think independence breeds conservatives and dependence breeds liberalism? Sure other factors will apply but if all things were equal I would say that the more urban the populace the more liberal they will be due to their environment.
    I'd question how independent a rural conservative feels when their power goes out.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    I'd question how independent a rural conservative feels when their power goes out.
    Frankly I imagine rural folks would get along better but its kinda silly since unless you live in a terribly run state like CA its unlikely the power is going to go out. And even in badly run states its unlikely.

  4. #4
    To progressives, the best thing about railroads is that people riding them are not in automobiles, which are subversive of the deference on which progressivism depends. Automobiles go hither and yon, wherever and whenever the driver desires, without timetables. Automobiles encourage people to think they—unsupervised, untutored, and unscripted—are masters of their fates. The automobile encourages people in delusions of adequacy, which make them resistant to government by experts who know what choices people should make.
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  5. #5
    Actually in rural areas the only reason they have access to various utilities is because of government initiatives. It simply isn't worth it commercially to provide utilities to most rural areas, so you needed government intervention to get it to work.

    Now I'm personally unsure most of the high speed rail translates well to US geography and markets, but your reasoning is absurd.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Actually in rural areas the only reason they have access to various utilities is because of government initiatives. It simply isn't worth it commercially to provide utilities to most rural areas, so you needed government intervention to get it to work.

    Now I'm personally unsure most of the high speed rail translates well to US geography and markets, but your reasoning is absurd.
    Hell, the amount of time it took to provide my parents with ADSL. And even now they only have 2.4MBit/s downstream.

    Whereas I've got symmetric 1GBit/s.
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  7. #7
    Using Lewk's awe-inspiring logic here, you would do just as well to replace independence with ignorance.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Do you think independence breeds conservatives and dependence breeds liberalism? Sure other factors will apply but if all things were equal I would say that the more urban the populace the more liberal they will be due to their environment.
    Are people more liberal (in either sense of the word) in cities, and people out in the rural sticks more conservative? I'm fairly sure any demographic study would indicate this to be the case.

    To use Lewk language:

    Living in a city, you are constantly surround by people, you interact with hundreds of strangers of every creed and every culture every single day. This breeds a certain tolerance, tolerance for differences in culture, race, sexuality, beliefs and class. One must assume live and let live, liberal traits to successfully thrive within and become part of a city. Ergo, liberals are more tolerant.

    People out in the sticks, on the flip side of the coin, are far less tolerant. They are surrounded by the same type of people; the same culture, race, sexuality, beliefs and class. Suspicion of strangers is high. Ergo, Conservatives are less tolerant.

    ~

    The obviousness of the *need* for government in a city as opposed to out in hicksville is so blatant I'm surprised it's been mentioned.

    Infrastructure, transportation, civil services etc are necessary for a busy city to operate. The same levels of infrastructure are obviously not needed in a small, sleepy rural town. Of course you need the government in a city.
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  9. #9
    Forever seeking Archimedean levers for prying the world in directions they prefer, progressives say they embrace high-speed rail for many reasons—to improve the climate, increase competitiveness, enhance national security, reduce congestion, and rationalize land use. The length of the list of reasons, and the flimsiness of each, points to this conclusion: the real reason for progressives’ passion for trains is their goal of diminishing Americans’ individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism.

    To progressives, the best thing about railroads is that people riding them are not in automobiles, which are subversive of the deference on which progressivism depends. Automobiles go hither and yon, wherever and whenever the driver desires, without timetables. Automobiles encourage people to think they—unsupervised, untutored, and unscripted—are masters of their fates. The automobile encourages people in delusions of adequacy, which make them resistant to government by experts who know what choices people should make.
    Wonder what he thinks about air traffic? Damn those airlines --- everyone should pilot their own plane to go hither and yon! Are buses also a form of "collectivism"?

    Being pro-rail is not an anti-auto, anti-individual, subversive movement to make people more reliant on teh evil gummint. That's an absurd conspiratorial notion thrown around by tea party types. The same people, by the way, who can't drive their automobiles without using publicly funded roadways.

    He'd prefer to limit transportation choices, by equating cars to individual freeeedom and trains to SSSocialism?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    ...Living in a city, you are constantly surround by people, you interact with hundreds of strangers of every creed and every culture every single day. This breeds a certain tolerance, tolerance for differences in culture, race, sexuality, beliefs and class. One must assume live and let live, liberal traits to successfully thrive within and become part of a city. Ergo, liberals are more tolerant.

    People out in the sticks, on the flip side of the coin, are far less tolerant. They are surrounded by the same type of people; the same culture, race, sexuality, beliefs and class. Suspicion of strangers is high. Ergo, Conservatives are less tolerant.
    Are you saying this is Lewk logic or your logic...not really sure here.

    Cause let me say that based upon my NYC experience, things aren't all rainbows and cupcakes WRT diversity and harmony.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Actually in rural areas the only reason they have access to various utilities is because of government initiatives. It simply isn't worth it commercially to provide utilities to most rural areas, so you needed government intervention to get it to work.

    Now I'm personally unsure most of the high speed rail translates well to US geography and markets, but your reasoning is absurd.
    Let me phrase it in a different way then. My theory is that cities create liberals. You can agree or disagree if you disagree can you explain why urban areas are more liberal then rural areas?

  12. #12
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Let me phrase it in a different way then. My theory is that cities create liberals. You can agree or disagree if you disagree can you explain why urban areas are more liberal then rural areas?
    I'd say cities attract those of a more social liberal mind set Lewk, it does not create them. Social Conservatives are not.

    Fiscal Liberals (and Fiscal Conservatives) may or may not care where they live.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I'd say cities attract those of a more social liberal mind set Lewk, it does not create them.
    I can actually get behind the idea that cities create social liberals *defining social liberals as having being moved by issues we've seen over the last 150 years or so, and not by another time period's political values and ideological spread* They do not do so exclusively, of course, and they don't exert this effect only within the cities. It's a corollary to basic density, the vices, flaws, and unavoidable or unintended negative consequences of our societies are more visible in the cities which creates a stronger and more constant pressure to react to them. And in our politics, that reaction usually falls in the socially liberal sphere of thought.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I'd say cities attract those of a more social liberal mind set Lewk, it does not create them. Social Conservatives are not.

    Fiscal Liberals (and Fiscal Conservatives) may or may not care where they live.
    It's more likely a combination of the two. Attitudes do change for some people when they're faced with totally different environments.
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  15. #15
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    LF and Kitty have a more nuanced view...and correct as well, as I can only post and run...I do agree with their above points.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Do you think independence breeds conservatives and dependence breeds liberalism? Sure other factors will apply but if all things were equal I would say that the more urban the populace the more liberal they will be due to their environment.
    I think being an American* conservative breeds having a hilarious self image of being a RUGGED INDIVIDUALIST, when in truth anyone who lives in a nation country is part of a huge web of interdependence not only with the rest of their own society, but with other nations as well. This is especially true of the US, where the population is so spread out. I doubt many rural communities over there would even exist without BIG GOVERNMENT, as wiggin has already pointed out.

    In fact, I hereby predict that were a Katrina style hurricane or Christchurch style earthquake nail some Southern rural US state, we'd here not a thing about RUGGED INDIVIDUALISM, but rather a substantial amount of QQing to the Federal and state governments, and the rest of the country generally, for aid, help and support.

    * I specify American conservatives here, because the particular meme of the RUGGED INDIVIDUALIST seems to be unique to American conservatism. Of course, conservatives of all nationalities can be delusional.
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  17. #17
    Hey, Lewk! George Will used to be a conservative in favor of HSR.


    Now that it's a Democratic administration advocating for rail, Will sees it not as a sensible solution for moving people from one place to another, but instead as a tool to control an unsuspecting populace:

    In his recent screed against rail, Will explicitly dismissed arguments that it would be good for national security. He also didn't mention air travel. Maybe that would have reminded him of what he himself wrote nearly 10 years ago.


    http://www.grist.org/article/2011-03...-he-was-for-it

  18. #18
    It is maybe interesting to add to the discussion, that HSR in France and Germany mostly compete against Airlines and not cars. Sometimes to such a degree that the airlines even don't fly some lines anymore: http://www.focus.de/reisen/fliegen/k...id_134086.html Google translation: http://translate.google.ch/translate...id_134086.html

    But conservatives maybe prefer to get scanned to their bones rather than taking a train.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    It is maybe interesting to add to the discussion, that HSR in France and Germany mostly compete against Airlines and not cars. Sometimes to such a degree that the airlines even don't fly some lines anymore: http://www.focus.de/reisen/fliegen/k...id_134086.html Google translation: http://translate.google.ch/translate...id_134086.html

    But conservatives maybe prefer to get scanned to their bones rather than taking a train.
    In an unregulated market, it's unlikely that airfare will cost more than train rides for most intercity trips, and it will probably be faster as well even with HSR. Honestly, for short hauls on the East Coast, the prohibitive cost of the train makes buses very popular for the cheap end, and planes very popular for the fast end. Trains are slower than planes and more expensive than both.

    On sale, it costs about $50 to fly from thereabouts of Washington DC to Boston (which spans pretty much all of the area people move in the most likely HSR corridor). A train ticket is going to be very hard pressed to beat that, let alone in less densely populated regions of the country.

    There are other negative parts of HSR plans. For one, they're going to significantly hurt shipping by rail - IIRC the Economist had a nice piece on this a while back. American rail shipping is incredibly cheap since deregulation and provides some serious competition against trucks (which are a lot worse for the environment, congestion, etc.). The upgrades necessary by installation of HSR lines would be cost-prohibitive for cargo.

    I think HSR is a good idea in limited regions (probably parts of either coast), but for most trips it still won't be competitive or practical, and may have negative externalities.

  20. #20
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    Hi speed rail only makes sense on a dedicated line, so why it should interfere with shipping goods is beyond me. Also, the fact that it needs to be subsidized doesn't cut much wood either; in France it was assumed that the TGV would run an operative loss. That loss was considered acceptable because of the expected side effects for the economies of connected towns and cities.

    Ask the people of Lille if they like the TGV, I doubt you will find more than a handfull who don' t like it because it' s not profitable to operate it.

    I expect all point to point air travel between Amsterdam and Paris to disappear over the next five years.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Hi speed rail only makes sense on a dedicated line, so why it should interfere with shipping goods is beyond me. Also, the fact that it needs to be subsidized doesn't cut much wood either; in France it was assumed that the TGV would run an operative loss. That loss was considered acceptable because of the expected side effects for the economies of connected towns and cities.
    In the US, pretty much all passenger rail lines run on freight tracks. The HSR plans I've seen do not change this, but merely require upgrades to the freight tracks and train tracking/control systems that are pretty expensive. See the article here: http://www.economist.com/node/16636101

    Quote Originally Posted by The Economist
    UNION STATION in Los Angeles has been restored as a fine example of the Art Deco architecture that typified California in the 1930s. It has served as a backdrop for many Hollywood films, from “Union Station” (naturally) to “Blade Runner” and “Star Trek: First Contact”. It was the last grand station to be built before America’s passenger railways went into what you might call terminal decline.

    Today it is a hub for Metrolink commuter trains and Amtrak services to faraway cities such as Chicago and Seattle. These trains have to pull in and then back out in a clumsy manoeuvre. But there are plans for through tracks in time to carry the high-speed services that California is desperate to have by 2020 under an ambitious $42 billion plan to connect San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Sacramento.

    California’s plans were given a boost by Barack Obama’s stimulus package last year. This earmarks a lump sum of $8 billion, plus $1 billion a year, to help construct fast rail corridors around America (see map). Such lines are common in Europe, Japan and, increasingly, China, yet the only thing at all like them in America is Amtrak’s Acela service from Boston via New York to Washington, DC. It rarely reaches its top speed of 150mph (240kph) and for much of the way manages little more than half that, because the track is not equipped for higher speeds. Acela, like virtually all trains run by publicly owned Amtrak, has to use tracks belonging to freight railways, whose trains trundle along at 50mph; passenger trains must stick below 80mph. Despite the excitement of railway buffs and the enthusiasm of environmentalists, high-speed rail in America is likely to mean a few more diesel-electric intercity trains at 110mph, not swish electric expresses going nearly twice as fast.

    But the problem with America’s plans for high-speed rail is not their modesty. It is that even this limited ambition risks messing up the successful freight railways. Their owners worry that the plans will demand expensive train-control technology that freight traffic could do without. They fear a reduction in the capacity available to freight. Most of all they fret that the spending of federal money on upgrading their tracks will lead the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), the industry watchdog, to impose tough conditions on them and, in effect, to reintroduce regulation of their operations. Attempts at re-regulation have been made in Congress in recent years, in response to rising freight rates. “The freight railroads feel they are under attack,” says Don Phillips, a rail expert in Virginia.

    America’s railways are the mirror image of Europe’s. Europe has an impressive and growing network of high-speed passenger links, many of them international, like the Thalys service between Paris and Brussels or the Eurostar connecting London to the French and Belgian capitals. These are successful—although once the (off-balance-sheet) costs of building the tracks are counted, they need subsidies of billions of dollars a year. But, outside Germany and Switzerland, Europe’s freight rail services are a fragmented, lossmaking mess. Repeated attempts to remove the technical and bureaucratic hurdles at national frontiers have come to nothing.


    Staggering progress

    Amtrak’s passenger services are sparse compared with Europe’s. But America’s freight railways are one of the unsung transport successes of the past 30 years. They are universally recognised in the industry as the best in the world.

    Their good run started with deregulation at the end of Jimmy Carter’s administration. Two years after the liberalisation of aviation gave rise to budget carriers and cheap fares, the freeing of rail freight, under the Staggers Rail Act of 1980, started a wave of consolidation and improvement. Staggers gave railways freedom to charge market rates, enter confidential contracts with shippers and run trains as they liked. They could close passenger and branch lines, as long as they preserved access for Amtrak services. They were allowed to sell lossmaking lines to new short-haul railroads. Regulation of freight rates by the Interstate Commerce Commission was removed for most cargoes, provided they could go by road.

    Before deregulation America’s railways were going bust. The return on capital fell from a meagre 4.1% in the 1940s to less than 3% in the 1960s. In 1970 the collapse of the giant Penn Central caused a huge shock, including a financial crisis. By 1980 a fifth of rail mileage was owned by bankrupt firms. Rail’s share of intercity freight had slumped to 35% from 75% in the 1920s. Tracks were neglected and fell into disrepair, leading to a downward spiral of speed restrictions and deteriorating service. The term “standing derailment” was coined to describe the toppling-over of stationary freight wagons when the track gave way beneath their wheels.

    Several factors had combined to bring about this sorry state of affairs. Services and rates were tightly regulated. Companies were obliged to run passenger services that could not make a profit. And road haulage received a huge boost from the building of the interstate highway system, which began in the late 1950s. Although this was supposed to be financed by taxes on petrol and diesel, railmen saw it as a form of subsidy to a new competitor, the nationwide trucking industry. In a neat twist, the poor condition of today’s highways and the lack of public money for repairs have tilted the competitive advantage back to a rejuvenated rail-freight industry.

    Giving the railroads the freedom to run their business as they saw fit led to dramatic improvements. The first result was a sharp rise in traffic and productivity and fall in freight costs. Since 1981 productivity has risen by 172%, after years of stagnation. Adjusted for inflation, rates are down by 55% since 1981 (see chart 1). Rail’s share of the freight market, measured in ton-miles, has risen steadily to 43%—about the highest in any rich country.

    The $34 billion purchase last year by Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway of Burlington Northern Santa Fe (BNSF), one of the seven main freight railways (see chart 2), opened many Americans’ eyes to the industry’s significance. That America’s shrewdest investor should place his biggest bet on BNSF focused attention on how the country’s railways have been quietly boosting the economy by sucking costs out of many supply chains.

    Coal is the biggest single cargo, accounting for 45% by volume and 23% by value. More than 70% of coal transport is by rail. As demand grows for the lower-sulphur coal from the Powder River Basin in Wyoming, it has to travel farther. In response railroads have invested in more powerful locomotives to haul longer coal trains: since 1990 the average horsepower of their fleet has risen by 72%. Yet energy efficiency has also improved. Lighter, aluminium freight wagons, double-decker ones and more fuel-efficient locomotives have lifted the number of ton-miles per (American) gallon of fuel from 332 to 457—an improvement of 38%.

    But the fastest-growing part of rail freight has been “intermodal” traffic: containers or truck trailers loaded on to flat railcars. The number of such shipments rose from 3m in 1980 to 12.3m in 2006, before the downturn caused a slight falling back. Behind this lies the tide of imports coming into the West Coast ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles. A special rail expressway for freight, the Alameda Corridor, was opened in 2002 to link the ports to the big national rail routes, bypassing the 200 level crossings (grade crossings, in America) on the original branch lines that used to cause huge traffic jams on the roads as mile-long freight trains rumbled across. The corridor, one of the biggest infrastructure projects in modern America, was completed on time and on budget for $2.4 billion by a public-private partnership considered by many to be a model for other rail schemes, such as California’s proposed high-speed passenger line.

    Despite lots of investment—amounting to $460 billion since 1980, and equivalent to 40% of revenues in recent years—capacity constraints and rising fuel costs pushed up freight rates from 2003 until the onset of recession, since when they have levelled off. This has caused unhappiness among some coal companies which have no alternative means of transport. Although most American rail corridors involve two railroads covering the same origin and destination points, in reality competition is limited. Usually one route is more direct than the other, and if a mining company has sidings and a branch line linked to one railroad it cannot quickly and easily switch to another. Even so, American rail freight is among the cheapest in the world, costing less than half as much as in Japan or Europe. After adjusting for differences in purchasing power it is cheaper even than in China (see chart 3).

    But the past ten years have seen another source of growth, as interstate highways have become clogged in places and have shown the effects of a lack of investment. Since one freight train can carry as much as 280 lorries can, railways can help to limit the rise in road congestion. Trucking companies such as J.B. Hunt have come to see the advantage of putting trailers on flat wagons for long-haul and using roads only for local pickup and delivery. This move was also spurred, according to Mr Phillips, by a shortage of lorry drivers. He says that tougher drink-driving rules and social changes have shrunk the numbers of “good ole boy” truckers inured to a life on the road. Most hauliers now suffer labour turnover of 100% a year.

    Freight railways’ very success is starting to create difficulties for them. The Department of Transportation estimates that many are already exceeding their theoretical capacity and are congested. It estimates that lots more investment will be needed, because capacity will have to rise by nearly 90% to meet forecast demand by 2035. The investment bill could rise yet more because of a change in the pattern of trade: in 2014 the Panama Canal opens a second lane, doubling its capacity and allowing it to carry bigger container vessels and bulk ships. Coming through to Gulf of Mexico and East Coast ports, these vessels will increase the need for better rail links inland.

    In addition the freight railroads face a $15 billion bill for a new safety system to control trains on lines that also carry passengers or dangerous chemical cargoes. This system, Positive Train Control (PTC), is intended to stop or slow a train automatically if a driver goes too fast or passes a red signal. The bill to introduce PTC was signed by George Bush in 2008 only a month after a crash between a Metrolink commuter train and a Union Pacific freight train in California, causing 25 deaths and 135 injuries. The railway companies complain that only 3% of crashes are caused by the sort of human error that PTC is designed to avert and that claims that the system will improve efficiency on the network are unfounded. Whereas the FRA says that the new safety system will apply to only 65,000 miles (out of a total of over 140,000), the industry reckons it will cover more than half the network. The railways are seeking tax breaks and other subsidies to reduce the cost of complying.

    Another looming threat is re-regulation. Fed up with increasing rates, customers, notably chemical, coal, agribusiness and utility companies, are complaining that these are evidence that the railroads are abusing their market power. The railroads retort that despite record traffic and profits, their return on investment since 2000 has been only 8%, which according to the Surface Transportation Board, another federal regulator, barely covers the cost of capital. They also say that freight rates are usually governed by what their competitors—ie, truckers—charge. When higher diesel costs put up trucking rates, the railways follow suit.

    Politicians from West Virginia have been pushing a bill in Congress that threatens to re-regulate the railways. The industry seems confident it will not get through, but risks will remain: opposing PTC could play into the hands of those who wish to increase oversight. In his annual letter to shareholders in February Mr Buffett said that BNSF, like Berkshire Hathaway’s electric utilities, required “wise regulators who will provide certainty about allowable returns so that we can confidently make the huge investments required to maintain, replace and expand the plant.”

    The emergence of express intercity rail services may cause the freight railways the biggest problem of all. The policy is not only laid down by the president but also often has enthusiastic support at state level. The railways can hardly oppose Mr Obama’s plan to boost high-speed rail, but they are apprehensive about what it will mean for them.

    The problem is not the creation of new corridors with trains rattling along at 150mph. Such lines, like those proposed in California or between Tampa and Orlando in Florida, would have their own track, separated from existing lines though on the same strip of land as a freight railway. The expertise to build and run these lies mainly in Europe and Japan, where engineering firms and the technology and consulting arms of national railways have been eyeing the American market eagerly.

    The trouble for the freight railways is that almost all the planned new fast intercity services will run on their tracks. Combining slow freight and fast passenger trains is complicated. With some exceptions on Amtrak’s Acela and North East corridor tracks, level crossings are attuned to limits of 50mph for freight and 80mph for passenger trains. But Mr Obama’s plan boils down to running intercity passenger trains at 110mph on freight tracks. Add the fact that freight trains do not stick to a regular timetable, but run variable services at short notice to meet demand, and the scope for congestion grows.


    Return of regulation

    The freight railroads have learned to live with the limited Amtrak passenger services on their tracks. Occasionally they moan that Amtrak pays only about a fifth of the real cost of this access. Some railmen calculate that this is equivalent to a subsidy of about $240m a year, on top of what Amtrak gets from the government. Freight-rail people regard this glumly as just part of the cost of doing business, but their spirits will hardly lift if the burden grows.

    Their main complaint, however, is that one Amtrak passenger train at 110mph will remove the capacity to run six freight trains in any corridor. Nor do they believe claims that PTC, due to be in use by 2015, will increase capacity by allowing trains to run closer together in safety. So it will cost billions to adapt and upgrade the lines to accommodate both a big rise in freight traffic and an unprecedented burgeoning of intercity passenger services. Indeed, some of the money that the White House has earmarked will go on sidings where freight trains can be parked while intercity expresses speed by.

    Federal and state grants will flow to the freight railroads to help them upgrade their lines for more and faster passenger trains. But already rows are breaking out over the strict guidelines the FRA will lay down about operations on the upgraded lines, such as guarantees of on-time performance with draconian penalties if they are breached and the payment of indemnities for accidents involving passenger trains. The railroads are also concerned that the federal government will be the final arbiter of how new capacity created with the federal funds will be allocated between passenger and freight traffic. And they are annoyed that there was little consultation before these rules were published.

    There have been some heated meetings between freight-railroad managers and FRA officials. Henry Posner III, chairman of Iowa Interstate Railroad, ruefully notes that freight railroads, in the form of passengers and regulation, “are getting back things that caused trouble”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir
    Ask the people of Lille if they like the TGV, I doubt you will find more than a handfull who don' t like it because it' s not profitable to operate it.
    Obviously they like it; they benefit from it. But would those billions of dollars in subsidies be better spent elsewhere that would have a better overall economic impact? In general, subsidies and regulation distort the natural market for a good (in this case, transportation). Absent compelling reasons to do so, the inefficient economic outcome is generally undesirable.

    Now, in the case of the Chunnel that might have been a 'compelling reason' to connect one of Europe's largest and most important economies by a land link. But that doesn't apply to all high speed rail lines.

    I expect all point to point air travel between Amsterdam and Paris to disappear over the next five years.
    Really? Is it that much cheaper to take the train?

  22. #22
    The HSR that would have connected Tampa and Orlando would have been all new track. Running alongside, or between, Interstate 4.

    EDIT:
    Just saw that both articles already state this.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  23. #23
    Funny, a few days ago I was in an airport and read this very editorial. I was a bit shocked to see someone espousing Lewk's "public transit = socialism" angle.

    Ultimately, the author here is both right and wrong. He's right that some rail-transit advocates do have some statist motivations. I saw a poster in my subway station today promoting seminars about how public transit is a "civil right".

    He's also right that these passenger rail ideas are financial boondoggles, and overall bad ideas. Rail transit within cities is arguably a prerequisite to rail transit between cities. I'm not going to take the train to Harrisburg, PA if I can't actually do anything in Harrisburg without a car.

    But at the same time he's also dead-wrong. When smartly done in the appropriate places, public transit is an exemplar of a good investment by governments. For me, public transit is freedom from having to own a car or risk driving drunk. It allows me to travel and work productively around my city. It liberates people from the capital investment in a car, which can be massive for some people.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    In the US, pretty much all passenger rail lines run on freight tracks. The HSR plans I've seen do not change this, but merely require upgrades to the freight tracks and train tracking/control systems that are pretty expensive. See the article here: http://www.economist.com/node/16636101
    I think we have to separate two things here. The idea of HSR between big cities in general and the current US plans to implement this.
    If the US really tries to have HSR that runs mainly on existing tracks, than this plan is a bad idea, not the HSR in general. HSR needs its own tracks where it gets fast (we talk about 300 km/h with current systems), but it has the advantage of using existing tracks when it enters the city.
    The TGV almost only runs on dedicated tracks, the ICE only on the real high speed lines. In either case, the high speed parts are exclusive.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  25. #25
    Indeed it seems suprising that a vast country like the US doesn't have HSR. Particularly given the part that railways has played in the formation of the nation.

    Even the littly tiny UK with its antiquated rail systems has managed to install HSR.

    The costs are indeed huge though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dread
    But at the same time he's also dead-wrong. When smartly done in the appropriate places, public transit is an exemplar of a good investment by governments. For me, public transit is freedom from having to own a car or risk driving drunk. It allows me to travel and work productively around my city. It liberates people from the capital investment in a car, which can be massive for some people.
    For me public transport is an absolute necessity. I have no other realistic alternative for getting in to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    But conservatives maybe prefer to get scanned to their bones rather than taking a train.
    Ha. Trust me, if trains ever make a come back, then the scanners will be there too (right along with the TSA)
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    But at the same time he's also dead-wrong. When smartly done in the appropriate places, public transit is an exemplar of a good investment by governments. For me, public transit is freedom from having to own a car or risk driving drunk. It allows me to travel and work productively around my city. It liberates people from the capital investment in a car, which can be massive for some people.
    I'm totally on board with this, especially for intracity transit (which is generally not worth the HSR investment except for some commuter lines). I think public transit is often an economic plus even for people who drive, and it almost certainly is an environmental and social plus when adequately implemented.

    That being said, you happen to live in the one city in the US that is probably best suited for comprehensive public transit. There are a few others that work pretty well too, but imagine the headache and cost of trying to implement a similar system in a city with much lower population density. There's a reason why places like Dallas have shitty public transit, and it's not just because of Republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    I think we have to separate two things here. The idea of HSR between big cities in general and the current US plans to implement this.
    If the US really tries to have HSR that runs mainly on existing tracks, than this plan is a bad idea, not the HSR in general. HSR needs its own tracks where it gets fast (we talk about 300 km/h with current systems), but it has the advantage of using existing tracks when it enters the city.
    The TGV almost only runs on dedicated tracks, the ICE only on the real high speed lines. In either case, the high speed parts are exclusive.
    I'm not attacking HSR in general - I started this off by suggesting that HSR is hard to translate to the US, with particular emphasis on the plans being promoted and funded by the current administration. Even if you build dedicated lines, though (which is very challenging from a policy and cost perspective, but certainly doable), it probably wouldn't be worth it outside of the NE corridor and possibly the West Coast. Short HSR lines for other regions (connecting two close cities) might be worth it as well, but a nationwide HSR network is almost certainly not worth it, even with a dedicated infrastructure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Indeed it seems suprising that a vast country like the US doesn't have HSR. Particularly given the part that railways has played in the formation of the nation.

    Even the littly tiny UK with its antiquated rail systems has managed to install HSR.

    The costs are indeed huge though.
    I don't think you realize how big the US is. The logic is in fact the reverse of what you say - since US cities are spread so far apart, the capital cost of HSR lines goes up while the ridership does not. Furthermore, the time differential between training and flying increases for longer lines, increasing an incentive to fly in the absence of a serious cost differential (which is hard to get without significant subsidies).

    HSR works great in tightly packed regions like the Northeast; not so much in the rest of the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Ha. Trust me, if trains ever make a come back, then the scanners will be there too (right along with the TSA)
    Likely true, I'm afraid, but even in Israel public transit has less stringent security than airports. This is mostly because you can't have significant delays at every embarkation point, and the ratio between time wasted on security and trip length is pretty important.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Indeed it seems suprising that a vast country like the US doesn't have HSR. Particularly given the part that railways has played in the formation of the nation.
    They also played a pivotal role in the formation of the US's first progressive movement and the creation of anti-corporatist sentiment. We basically deliberately killed the industry because it wouldn't/couldn't rein in its abuses. It spent several decades on life support and then freight rail was rehabilitated. No one has yet managed to make large-scale passenger rail profitable again though, and we're already subsidizing two major transportation alternatives.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    .....He's also right that these passenger rail ideas are financial boondoggles, and overall bad ideas. Rail transit within cities is arguably a prerequisite to rail transit between cities. I'm not going to take the train to Harrisburg, PA if I can't actually do anything in Harrisburg without a car.
    You can fly directly into HIA (MDT), then use a public bus, taxi, hotel shuttle, or rental car to get around. Same thing you'd need to do if you took Amtrak from NYC into Harrisburg. The cost and time factors can be misleading when it comes to city-to-city Amtrak, unfortunately. If I drive into NYC, gas / traffic / parking costs can outweigh the price of an Amtrak ticket....but only if I drive to the Lancaster station first.

    Business travelers presume flying is always cheaper and faster. After arriving 2 hours early, plus the hour it can take for long-term parking buses, walking a mile to the terminal, waiting in line for security checks, another mile to the gate.....then flights get delayed (especially Newark) and checked baggage gets lost. At the end of it all, they still have to pay parking fees because they had to drive to the airport.

    But at the same time he's also dead-wrong. When smartly done in the appropriate places, public transit is an exemplar of a good investment by governments. For me, public transit is freedom from having to own a car or risk driving drunk. It allows me to travel and work productively around my city. It liberates people from the capital investment in a car, which can be massive for some people.
    The east and west coast corridors have better city-to-city train services than the middle states. Chicago has good city-to-suburb trains, like NJ into NYC. Seattle's underground bus tunnel was amazing, but I haven't been there since they modified it for light rail. The point is....there's a huge difference between light rail, inner city trains or subways, and HSR. It's all about population density and demand.

    I think Americans have gotten so accustomed to airline hubs and interstate highways, connecting cars to planes, then back to cars again --- that people can't imagine an efficient HSR system. They tend to compare it to Amtrak (who's had so many problems it's like the poster child for what not to do) instead of other well-functioning trains in other countries.

    Yeah, the US is a big ass land mass country. So what? Canada, Russia, China and India are also big ass land mass countries. As long as we can keep attracting immigrants and our population grows, some of those additional one billion people will end up here. By then, gas could be double the price and sprawl won't look as attractive. People might move toward denser urban clusters and HSR would make so much sense!

    But that would require looking forward with some long-term vision, and agreeing that public funding should be used for those future investments. Ha, our track record isn't looking so great these days.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yeah, the US is a big ass land mass country. So what? Canada, Russia, China and India are also big ass land mass countries. As long as we can keep attracting immigrants and our population grows, some of those additional one billion people will end up here. By then, gas could be double the price and sprawl won't look as attractive. People might move toward denser urban clusters and HSR would make so much sense!

    But that would require looking forward with some long-term vision, and agreeing that public funding should be used for those future investments. Ha, our track record isn't looking so great these days.
    Do you honestly think HSR in the Midwest will be worth it for all but the closest cities to Chicago? (i.e. Milwaukee and nothing else) An analysis of HSR in Texas made it look like a pretty unattractive option for linking Houston and Dallas, and they're pretty close by American standards. Even worse would be a transcontinental HSR service linking the coasts. That would have huge tracts of extremely wasteful infrastructure for no good purpose.

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