Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 41

Thread: Greek Riots

  1. #1

    Default Greek Riots

    Fierce battles break out amid mass Greece protest

    ATHENS, Greece — Youths hurled rocks and fire bombs at riot police in central Athens on Tuesday as a general strike against new austerity measures brought the country to a standstill.

    Lawmakers are embarking on their second day of debate on austerity measures that must be passed in votes on Wednesday and Thursday if Greece is to receive another batch of bailout funds to see it beyond the middle of next month.

    If the votes don't pass, Greece could become the first eurozone nation to default on its debts, and that could send out huge shock waves through the global economy.

    The new austerity drive is proving hugely unpopular in Greece and a demonstration in central Athens soon descended into violence.

    Story: EU warns Greece rejecting austerity means default

    For several hours, police fired volleys of tear gas and stun grenades at masked and hooded youths just before the second day of debating was to resume.

    Two groups of protesters appeared to clash with each other at one point. One side took refuge near a coffee shop, and police fired tear gas in an attempt to clear the crowds and get them out.

    The situation quickly degenerated, with masked and hooded youths pelting police with chunks of marble ripped off building facades and steps.

    McDonald's windows smashed

    They set fire to giant parasols at an outdoor cafe, using some to form barricades, and smashed windows of a McDonald's outlet and other snack shops.
    Staff at upscale hotels handed out surgical masks to tourists and helped them with rolling luggage past the rioting, over ground strewn with smashed-up marble and cement paving stones.

    Youths torched a satellite truck parked near parliament. The fire caused a freezer at a neighboring kiosk to explode, and hooded youths ducked behind the burning truck to help themselves to ice-cream cones.

    "The troublemakers are attacking the police fiercely and trying to disrupt a peaceful protest," police spokesman Athanasios Kokalakis said.

    Officials said four police officers were injured by flying stones and one person was stabbed during fights between rival groups of young demonstrators and three others were injured while a number of people were treated with breathing troubles.

    Eighteen people were detained and three formal arrest charges were laid, police said.

    Violence continued throughout the afternoon and protesters set fire to two communications trucks with mobile telecoms transmitters which they had apparently mistaken for TV trucks and sprayed with slogans attacking the media and banks.

    Riot police charge

    As a crowd initially estimated at more than 20,000 thinned out, clouds of white smoke swirled above the square and police with shields and riot helmets stood by, occasionally launching charges to disperse a harder core of mainly young demonstrators.

    The clashes came at the start of a two-day strike called by unions furious that the new euro28 billion ($40 billion) austerity program will slap taxes on minimum wage earners and other struggling Greeks.

    The measures come on top of other spending cuts and tax hikes that have sent Greek unemployment soaring to over 16 percent.

    "The situation that the workers are going through is tragic and we are near poverty levels," said Spyros Linardopoulos, a protester with the PAME union blockading the port of Piraeus. "The government has declared war and to this war we will answer back with war."

    The scale of the strike bought large parts of the Greek economy to a halt.

    Everyone from doctors and ambulance drivers to casino workers and even actors at a state-funded theater were joining the strike or holding work stoppages for several hours.

    "The measures are for the good of the banks not for the good of workers," said Yannis Tsounis, 38, a municipal worker. "Europe must not see us as pariahs. We are beginning to feel as not being a part of Europe."

    An ongoing strike by electricity company workers kept up rolling blackouts across Greece. Not far from the violent protest, cafes and ice cream vendors popular with tourists used portable generators to keep the power on.

    Hundreds of flights were canceled or rescheduled as air traffic controllers walked off the job for four hours in the morning. Another walkout is scheduled for later. Strikes by public transport workers snarled traffic across the capital and left tourists stranded around Piraeus.

    'We don't owe any money'

    Many Greeks insist they should not be forced to pay for a crisis they believe politicians are responsible for.

    "We don't owe any money, it's the others who stole it," said 69-year-old demonstrator Antonis Vrahas. "We're resisting for a better society for the sake of our children and grandchildren."

    In a sign the discontent has spread well beyond the union movement and far left, the Greek Confederation of Commerce (ESEE), a trade association of retailers, also rejected measures its leader Vassilis Korkidis denounced as "predatory".

    It urged shopkeepers to raise Greek national flags at their stores and announced an internet campaign to convince cabinet members and MPs to renege on the austerity plan.

    Despite the discontent being displayed — a sizable but peaceful demonstration was held in Greece's second city Thessaloniki — the country's lawmakers are preparing for their second day of debate over the austerity measures.

    The package must be passed so the European Union and the International Money Fund release the next installment of Greece's euro110 billion ($156 billion) bailout loan.

    Without that euro12 billion ($17 billion) installment, Greece faces the prospect of a default next month — a potentially disastrous event that could drag down European banks and hurt other financially troubled European countries.

    Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos called on lawmakers to back the austerity measures, saying it was vital to convince Greece's creditors that it had a plan.

    "The government is running out of time and so is the opposition," he told parliament. "We are handling our country's history right now and nobody can play with that."

    But even lawmakers from the governing Socialists have been upset over the latest measures and Prime Minister George Papandreou has struggled to contain an internal party revolt.

    He reshuffled his cabinet earlier this month to try to ensure his party's support for this vote, but the Socialists still only have a 5-seat majority in the 300-member Parliament.

    European officials have been pressuring Greece's the main conservative opposition party to back the austerity bill but so far their urgings have failed to convince conservative party leader Antonis Samaras.

    "I trust that the Greek political leaders are fully aware of the responsibility that lies on their shoulders to avoid default," European Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said.

    As well as looking to get the next batch of bailout funds, Greece looks like it will need another financial rescue.

    Greece seeks second bailout

    The initial plan had assumed that Greece would be able to return to the markets next year.

    That doesn't look like it's going to happen so Greece is looking for more money. Papandreou has said a second bailout would be roughly the same size as the first and hopefully on better terms.

    "I call on Europe, for its part, to give Greece the time and the terms it needs to really pay off its debt, without strangling growth, and without strangling its citizens," he said.

    Even with the new austerity measures and a second bailout, many investors still think Greece is heading for some sort of default because its overall euro340 billion debt burden is too great.

    In a speech to shareholders in Athens, the head of EFG Eurobank, Greece's second-largest bank, said it was vital that the austerity measures were passed in parliament.

    "Today, what is at stake for the country is its very future. Individually and collectively, we must all realize how crucial the situation is and join the collective effort for the big changes," Nicholas Nanopoulos said.
    Source

    This is my favorite reaction to economic problems. Unhappy with the economy? Cause economic damage to try to force the government to screw the economy worse!

  2. #2
    My thoughts exactly. The Greek unions must have destroyed at least 2-3 weeks worth of economic output in the last year.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Look, everyone knows that, like all governments, the Greek government could solve the debt/economic problems by conjuring money out of thin air if they wanted. They just would do it because they're being stubborn. You'd riot too!

  4. #4
    And I like how everyone is blaming the politicians for stealing the money. They didn't seem to be blaming them when they did nothing to collect taxes or hired far more government workers than they could afford (or needed).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Look, everyone knows that, like all governments, the Greek government could solve the debt/economic problems by conjuring money out of thin air if they wanted. They just would do it because they're being stubborn. You'd riot too!
    Only if the Greek government sees anything in the Weimar hyperinflation model. What the austerity plan now means is that people see how much less they get. With a Drachma (needed to conjure the money you are talking about) they'd learn real fast that a million is a lot only if your money doesn't loose 10% of its value a week.
    Congratulations America

  6. #6
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    My thoughts exactly. The Greek unions must have destroyed at least 2-3 weeks worth of economic output in the last year.
    I dare say that they'd strike regardless. With or without unions.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #7
    And yet the private sector (i.e. the one that's barely unionized) has been mostly quiet.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And yet the private sector (i.e. the one that's barely unionized) has been mostly quiet.
    Of course, less useless civil servants in the end will mean lower taxes and a better business environment for them.
    Congratulations America

  9. #9
    And I like how everyone is blaming the politicians for stealing the money. They didn't seem to be blaming them when they did nothing to collect taxes or hired far more government workers than they could afford (or needed).
    This is what happens when their is a disconnect between a government and its people, such a disconnect also exists in the U.S. Politically inactive is the most common political affiliation.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Of course, less useless civil servants in the end will mean lower taxes and a better business environment for them.
    That's not how your average private sector worker thinks. It's a combination of two things. First, they don't want to lose their jobs. Second, they resent public sector workers for having higher wages, better benefits, and better working conditions, and think they're getting what's coming to them.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #11
    I'm curious if that main conservative party is actually opposed to austerity, or if they're just trying to bring Papandreou's government down. Anyone have a source on the internal maneuvering?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #12
    They seem to be playing the populist card (calling for tax cuts instead of spending cuts/tax increases) to better position themselves when the government falls. I don't think you can separate their "real position" from the position the party believes will benefit it most.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And yet the private sector (i.e. the one that's barely unionized) has been mostly quiet.
    As far as I recall, the public sector has been hit hardest.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    573
    My sister and a few friends of hers are supposed to be arriving in Athens today, I hope it isn't as bad as it seems to be!

    Whilst I can understand why the Greek people are protesting in such a manner, don't they understand that something has to give? I'm not all that familiar with this issue, but if the government caves in to their protests, then they default on their debts, which to me seems to be a far worse outcome than complying with these 'austerity measures.' (?)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    As far as I recall, the public sector has been hit hardest.
    Yes, because their government (politicians) have been corrupt for decades. Greeks will be the first to say so. Ignoring the "black market" economy, not closing tax loopholes, not collecting taxes properly from the wealthy, not weeding out graft. The public unions could get their workers steady jobs and benefits....but those workers ended up one of the few groups actually paying accountable taxes.

    That's the sad part now with austerity measures, cuts to public worker jobs and benefits, cuts to students and education. They wanted to see the skimmers and cheats reined in, those who avoid paying taxes with the help of savvy accountants, the wink-and-a-nod underground economy shored up, the bankers and financial 'wizards' held liable for their fraud and cooking the books. Seems none of that has happened. That's why they're rioting.

    The private sector is quiet because they're between a rock and a hard place. They might hope privatization will be good for business, but IF the government corruption is finally addressed, they'll suddenly be expected to pay their fair share of taxes.

  16. #16
    Ignoring the obvious fact that it wasn't just the rich not paying the taxes: everyone (except government workers) were cheating on their taxes. And a bloated bureaucracy helped the lower classes, as they're the ones who'd get the useless government jobs. The entire country was living far beyond its means, and it's rather dishonest for some to point the finger at others.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Ignoring the obvious fact that it wasn't just the rich not paying the taxes: everyone (except government workers) were cheating on their taxes. And a bloated bureaucracy helped the lower classes, as they're the ones who'd get the useless government jobs.
    That's what I just said.


    The entire country was living far beyond its means, and it's rather dishonest for some to point the finger at others.
    The government workers paid taxes. Of course there were too many of those "useless" jobs, but they wanted to work instead of just taking welfare. The bloated bureaucrats also benefited from the corruption. Unsustainable no matter how you look at it.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Greece can not only not serve its debt, it can't even serve current obligations. If they vote against the package today, soon they'll have a default, no banking sector (forget about too big to fail, there will be nobody to save them) and their government will have to start cutting their budget so savagely the austerity plans will look like a walk in the park.

    @LF; the bits and pieces I read about it is that ND sees this as an opportunity to return to power. They think they have EU politicians by the balls because they believe the Armageddon scenario's are just as scary for the rest of the EU as for the Greeks. They are wrong; for them a Greek default means a drop to third world status, for us it means a financial crisis that will hurt bad, but which we can recover from.
    Congratulations America

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Greece can not only not serve its debt, it can't even serve current obligations.
    Again, that's because the government officials were corrupt. They even fudged facts to enter the eurozone, didn't they?

    If they vote against the package today, soon they'll have a default, no banking sector (forget about too big to fail, there will be nobody to save them) and their government will have to start cutting their budget so savagely the austerity plans will look like a walk in the park.
    "They" means corrupt politicians who've been dragging the country down for decades, cooking the books, lying to the people AND to other European nations. I'm not trying to say the rioters or public workers are better or more right....just recognizing why they're rioting even when it looks counter-productive.

    I wouldn't discount a full blown revolution at this point.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    The protests are mostly joined by the usual suspects and even though it seems like the Greek police has a difficult time dealing with them they hardly have the clout to actually change anything. A revolution this is not.

    The reason why Greece doesn't have the money to even pay current expenses had got nothing to do with corruption, it's a simple sum of more out than in. By a large margin and possibly nobody willing to plug the hole. Though the vote today seems to have resulted in setting the stage for more money from Brussels/Washington.
    Congratulations America

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    The protests are mostly joined by the usual suspects and even though it seems like the Greek police has a difficult time dealing with them they hardly have the clout to actually change anything. A revolution this is not.

    The reason why Greece doesn't have the money to even pay current expenses had got nothing to do with corruption, it's a simple sum of more out than in. By a large margin and possibly nobody willing to plug the hole. Though the vote today seems to have resulted in setting the stage for more money from Brussels/Washington.
    Same could be said about the US, though. We've spent more, promised more, pushed more into the future---and congress is diddling around about whether or not to raise the debt ceiling as a political maneuver. We could "get more money" from China buying our treasuries, but that's only one piece of the puzzle.

    Greece has absolutely been operating on a corrupt foundation. For decades. Even their entry into the EU was based on falsified accounting. Their "people" might be blamed for putting the 'wrong' people in power....but the "people" can't be blamed for the entrenched graft and corruption that goes on behind closed government doors. Once the "people" found out just how short-changed they were by their officials and leaders, it's even worse than the Iceland or Ireland shock and awe.

    I'm just saying, if all the countries in deep debt and at risk of default smell the coffee at the same time...and organize at the same time...it could get really ugly.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    The people did not seem to mind extraordinary benefits and early retirements - and protest measures to bring those to standards from other European countries. Hell, some people are now even protesting having to pay their water bills - what do they expect, that everything's free?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    The people did not seem to mind extraordinary benefits and early retirements - and protest measures to bring those to standards from other European countries. Hell, some people are now even protesting having to pay their water bills - what do they expect, that everything's free?
    Yes, they expect exactly that. It's like somebody maxing out all his credit cards and then getting furious over the bank statement.
    Congratulations America

  24. #24
    I don't think we should lump all Greeks into one group like that.

    I've personally never lived with such entrenched corruption, but my sister's husband and his family has. It took them years to get out and emigrate to the US, but some of their learned habits came along. Even honest, hard working people got accustomed to making up random fees, adding tips or other 'services' under the table. That's just how it was done. That's just how everyone operated in Greece. Consumers got used to it after so many decades, I suppose. Prices always fluctuated and residents knew how to haggle, but tourists didn't.

    When the family first arrived in the US, they started with a hot dog cart in Philly. Surprised to find out there were fees and licenses to be paid. That kind of thing was paid under the table to the favor of the beat cop and what we'd call an alderman or mayor in Greece, then adding the cost to each hot dog. Fluctuating prices for the same product in Greece, but it didn't work that way here.

    They even automatically under-reported their income at tax time, because that's what they "learned" in Greece....until they found a Greek ex-pat accountant who could explain that our IRS doesn't just accept obviously low numbers that don't make any sense. That there were desk people actually crunching numbers and wanted sales receipts and proof of purchases for inventory....things unheard of in Greece, where people routinely filed totally fictitious tax forms and would never be questioned.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    So we shouldn't lump all Greeks in one group like that and then you start explaining how the country and it's people are so used to corruption and deceit that it's the norm rather than the exception.

    The funny thing about this all is of course that they complain about a lack of democracy because they are forced to pay, and up here people complain about a lack of democracy because they are forced to bail them out
    Congratulations America

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    The funny thing about this all is of course that they complain about a lack of democracy because they are forced to pay, and up here people complain about a lack of democracy because they are forced to bail them out
    It's not a contradiction. Democracy means getting everything you want for free.

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    It's not a contradiction. Democracy means getting everything you want for free.
    No, in Greece it just means you get to forward your bill to somebody else. Who you then get to call a neo-colonialist nazi pig.
    Congratulations America

  28. #28


    America is never this exciting
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Imagine what would happen to them if we'd be just as 'democratic' and blocked any of our money going to Athens next month.
    Congratulations America

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post


    America is never this exciting
    Is that rake photoshopped?
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •