Collegiate Ponzi Schemes

[Omega]

This is going to be relatively short and uneloquent because I am pressed for time, but WHY THE FUCK ARE COLLEGE TEXTBOOKS SO EXPENSIVE. Honestly, I don't even mind the price that much since i come from a relatively affluent family, but when the professors write a book and make sure to ONLY teach by their newest edition in order to make a shit ton of profit, that's where I draw the line. For example, one book I purchased cost around 200 dollars. There are over 1000 students in my class and there are two sociology classes. Therefore, i'd assume there are 2200 students. 440 000 dollars. Now, even if they only get 10% of the pie, they still make 44, 000. He also forced us to purchase a poorly written novel. But let's say a third of the students decide not to purchase the newest copies, then he still makes in the upwards of 20k per semester. WTF IS THE BULLSHIT. I would be fine if the teacher didn't write the book AND simultaneously teach the damn class. I think we need some government intervention all up in this bitch.

[Dreadnaught]

Aw man, it sort of makes me nostalgic to see someone experiencing the college textbook scheme for the first time.

[GGT]

Priceless Post.

[Loki]

There are over 1,000 students in your class?

[Draco]

^^There were over a thousand in my first year maths classes when I started out a few years ago.

As for textbooks, it sucks that they're so expensive. My advice: see if the library has a copy, or even an older edition, since (depending on the course) the content couldn't have changed all that much, but you mentioned the professor has written the book so unless they wrote some previous edition, you won't find it. If not, check out www.bookdepository.co.uk (there's a US version, just ends in .com), I've found some very cheap books on there.

[Loki]

And I thought it was bad standing in front of 300.

Regarding the opening post, whether this is dubious or not depends on how popular this professor's textbook is. If it's a standard text in the field, then there's nothing wrong with the guy assigning it. Now if no one in the field uses this textbook other than him, I'd say there's an issue.

[Draco]

Well I don't know how it is at Omega's university, but the one I went to the lectures were split into three, two of them had the bulk of students, whilst the third was a smaller class (you had to enrol into which lecture you wished to attend), and apparently even then they couldn't cater for every single person, so the lectures were recorded. Yet another thing that was taken into account was that there were people who would rarely go to the lectures. The only time there weren't any seats left was in the first week (so people just sat on the stairs, even though it was against some fire code crap). It worked out in the end.

[GGT]

There are over 1,000 students in your class?

Was standard size for intro classes like biology, chemistry, physiology, held in massive lecture halls with that number of students. Nose bleed sections. And that was twenty years ago. Before power point presentations. They used to use HUGE triptych chalk boards that moved up and down on pulled ropes.

[Loki]

God forbid they hire an extra adjunct at $30k a year to split up the class.

[GGT]

No, that's where "labs" came into play. The massive lecture hall was led by the professors (they used microphones, btw) and the labs were led by their TAs. Labs were smaller groups, maybe 100 or so. Some TAs had just one lab, some had two or three, depending on the subject. I had two TAs for anatomy, one for microscopic cytology and another for gross dissections, but they worked together. They've probably changed all that by now. It used to be 'controversial' for students to bring cassette recorders and tape a lecture. Gosh, I suddenly feel really old.

[Loki]

Just checked the intro natural science classes here. The lectures are about 350 students and the labs/sections are 30. The intro poli sci classes have between 180 and 270 students, along with 30-student sections.

I do know that professors hate teaching huge lectures, and students hate taking them (you usually get credit for 1.5 classes for huge lectures despite teaching 10 times more students). Makes you wonder who benefits.

[LittleFuzzy]

Aw man, it sort of makes me nostalgic to see someone experiencing the college textbook scheme for the first time.

God, I so don't miss the college bookstore.

For class sizes, people may knock the quality of UCSC but at least we didn't have to deal with that shit. The largest classes, like Intro to Psych, topped out at about 200. I don't think we had more than three or four lecture halls which would more than 100 students.

[GGT]

I feel even older now. I can't even find what I'm looking for from my alma mater.

http://www.iub.edu/biglist/index.shtml

[Khendraja'aro]

Our professors only assign books which you can also find in the University's library. If they assign books at all.

[RandBlade]

Our university library had copies of all books required for the courses, but actually being able to borrow one of those copies was another story. Most were in the short-term loan section where you could check out a book for 2 hours.

[Flixy]

This is going to be relatively short and uneloquent because I am pressed for time, but WHY THE FUCK ARE COLLEGE TEXTBOOKS SO EXPENSIVE. Honestly, I don't even mind the price that much since i come from a relatively affluent family, but when the professors write a book and make sure to ONLY teach by their newest edition in order to make a shit ton of profit, that's where I draw the line. For example, one book I purchased cost around 200 dollars. There are over 1000 students in my class and there are two sociology classes. Therefore, i'd assume there are 2200 students. 440 000 dollars. Now, even if they only get 10% of the pie, they still make 44, 000. He also forced us to purchase a poorly written novel. But let's say a third of the students decide not to purchase the newest copies, then he still makes in the upwards of 20k per semester. WTF IS THE BULLSHIT. I would be fine if the teacher didn't write the book AND simultaneously teach the damn class. I think we need some government intervention all up in this bitch.

Heh, I hear that.

Luckily I have only had this problem two times or so. I was more annoyed by the number of books we 'had' to buy, but turned out to be only a reference for further reading - so often you only ended up opening it two or three times, but setting you back €60 or so

A lot of profs here do have their own study material, but they tend to either hand it out for free (mostly at smaller, more advanced classes), or simply have it printed at the university printing shop, which makes the price €5-€20, which isn't unreasonable. Or they simply put it all online and you can print it if you want. My statistical physics prof wrote a bunch of excellent readers on statisticsal physics, thermodynamids, etc., and handed them all out for free. And it's way better than my €80 book on thermodynamics.

And I thought it was bad standing in front of 300.

Regarding the opening post, whether this is dubious or not depends on how popular this professor's textbook is. If it's a standard text in the field, then there's nothing wrong with the guy assigning it. Now if no one in the field uses this textbook other than him, I'd say there's an issue.

Luckily I managed to avoid this, but one of our profs is notorious for making students buy his own book, and the exam mostly consists of having to know what his opinions on certain issues are. Oh well, he also managed to get one of his books to be a university gift to business relations, which presumably got him a lot of sales as well. To be completely fair, the book isn't bad, but the guy is just a pompous ass who thinks the world of himself and his own opinions.

Just checked the intro natural science classes here. The lectures are about 350 students and the labs/sections are 30. The intro poli sci classes have between 180 and 270 students, along with 30-student sections.

I do know that professors hate teaching huge lectures, and students hate taking them (you usually get credit for 1.5 classes for huge lectures despite teaching 10 times more students). Makes you wonder who benefits.

My entire first year was only 80 people, at the beginning And then we were split in three groups for labs, so after a week or two that meant three groups of 20 people. I don't think our lecture halls can seat more than 300 or 400 people, actually. But I think we only have about 1000 new students every year, so we are pretty small Upside is I know most of my profs and teachers, which is good. And they can almost always make time for you, and I can imagine that a prof can't make time for 1000 students.

Our university library had copies of all books required for the courses, but actually being able to borrow one of those copies was another story. Most were in the short-term loan section where you could check out a book for 2 hours.

Every book used by any class is supposed to be in our library. However, they mostly only have one or two copies, so if someone else has it you're out of luck. You can borrow them for as long as you want... unless someone else reserves it.

I usually either buy the book through the the student's association (they buy books in bulk so they have sharper prices), borrow it from the library, from a friend, or buy it second hand online. There usually is not a problem with using older editions, just the page numbers won't match. A few times when I had an older edition, I just asked the prof if he still had the old study guide for that edition, and the problem would be solved.

This reminds I still have forgotten to return a book on fusion as an energy source to the professor I borrowed it from...

[RandBlade]

I bought all textbooks on the reading list for the first year, barely touched half of them. For my second and third year and my Masters I didn't bother to buy any for the first week, after a week or two I figured out which were actually important and which weren't and bought the few that turned out to be necessary.

I liked the two hour system in our library, was useful for ensuring the books became available. The trick though was to borrow them after 4PM on Friday. Even though the library was open late at night and through the weekend, if you borrowed it then you could keep it until 8AM on Monday. The time blocks were Mon-Fri 8AM-10, 10-12 etc to 4PM - 8AM (as they stopped the clock at 6). Return it late though and you got charged £1 per hour late.

[Flixy]

I've never heard of two-hour library books. Some of our books are not for lending at all, but you can use them while studying in the library. I don't know what you studied, but last time I borrowed a textbook from the library I kept it for a few months, and used it pretty much the entire time. A mere two hours would be, well, pretty useless for studying, just okay to quickly look something up or try to make sense of one particular thing. We can borrow for three weeks, and then you can extend it online, unless someone reserved the book, in which case you have to return it. Penalties are €1/week, and you can't borrow any new books until you've returned the book (and paid the fine). And when you are doing your master's thesis or if you are a PhD student, you can borrow them for six months at a time.

Waiting a few weeks to figure out which books you actually need is definitely a good idea.

[RandBlade]

€1/week penalty? Why would anyone bother returning it? Or buying a book?

Only the most popular and smallest stock items were in the short-term library. Most others were available for either 24 hours or one week loans. I most commonly used the short-term library to either read up one article/chapter only or to photocopy said chapter/article. If I could get it Friday I could typically complete the relevant assignment that required that chapter in that weekend.

I can't imagine the books being available for everyone if you could keep them long-term.

[Flixy]

€1/week penalty? Why would anyone bother returning it? Or buying a book?

Only the most popular and smallest stock items were in the short-term library. Most others were available for either 24 hours or one week loans. I most commonly used the short-term library to either read up one article/chapter only or to photocopy said chapter/article. If I could get it Friday I could typically complete the relevant assignment that required that chapter in that weekend.

I can't imagine the books being available for everyone if you could keep them long-term.

The books I need, I need more than one week. Not to mention most books that are borrowed from the library are needed for research that takes a while. Maybe it's because I attend a technical university, but I have never heard of any library that limits you to 2 hours, 24 hours, or one week. Any book I have ever borrowed would have been pretty much useless if I could keep it anything less than a week.

Though some of the more expensive, fragile items, and journals, are not allowed to leave the library at all. But you can copy them, of course.

Did the universities others on this forum attend(ed) also have these short term library policies?

[coinich]

The system where I am has certain items placed in reserve by the professors. Students in the class can request the material for 2 hours. After that, they can renew it indefinitely, unless another student has requested it since. The book isn't allowed to read the library; its intended that everyone has access to the resource. Most books however, including Congressional records, were standard 2 week policies.

Which is why, among other reasons, I haven't bought a textbook in 2 years.

[Catgrrl]

Just checked the intro natural science classes here. The lectures are about 350 students and the labs/sections are 30. The intro poli sci classes have between 180 and 270 students, along with 30-student sections.
:

That was how my intro classes were too.

On the book thing: it does suck. While at the end of the semester you may be able to sell a few of them back at a much lower return, often there are some that can't be sold back. Usually the expensive ones.
I still have a few of my books from college. The ones I thought would be interesting to keep at the time. Now I'd love to get rid of them, but I don't think nearly 10 years after the fact there is anywhere to take them. I wonder if a library would take them off my hands? I'd hate to throw them in the recycling bin....

[Illusions]

Aw man, it sort of makes me nostalgic to see someone experiencing the college textbook scheme for the first time.

My worst experience of this was in grad school when the professor of a films studies class required us to get three books, each about a specific artist completely uninvolved in film (all designers), that were around a hundred dollars each, and that we never used in class. They also happened to be this person's favorite artist. I can't even sell them, as they are terrible enough that they go for dollars on Amazon.com new/like new from people selling them back...

[Nessus]

The books I need, I need more than one week. Not to mention most books that are borrowed from the library are needed for research that takes a while. Maybe it's because I attend a technical university, but I have never heard of any library that limits you to 2 hours, 24 hours, or one week. Any book I have ever borrowed would have been pretty much useless if I could keep it anything less than a week.

Though some of the more expensive, fragile items, and journals, are not allowed to leave the library at all. But you can copy them, of course.

Did the universities others on this forum attend(ed) also have these short term library policies?

Usual loan time for a book in our library system is a month, there are some special items that you can only have for 2 weeks. And we have a section with books you can't check out but can use in the library. Fine is 10 cents a day or something like that.

Usually the rotation time for homework exercises (the time between getting new problems and having to turn them in) is a week, so a 2-hour loan time seems like a joke.

[Ominous Gamer]

2 hour loan period sounds like a roundabout way to allow photocopying without directly saying "photocopy here"

thepiratebay can have a surpising number of college texts online, even when they are class/teacher specific.

not a fan of the current ebook trend of books expiring after 6 months/ 1 year, while still requiring students to pay full price.

[Khendraja'aro]

2 hour loan period sounds like a roundabout way to allow photocopying without directly saying "photocopy here"

thepiratebay can have a surpising number of college texts online, even when they are class/teacher specific.

not a fan of the current ebook trend of books expiring after 6 months/ 1 year, while still requiring students to pay full price.

Is that even legal?

[LittleFuzzy]

Our library also had to buy at least one copy of each text the professor required and have it on reserve which meant a short check-out, 2 or 3 hours. Enough time to do assigned reading and take some notes, or copy problems down to do later. I think I only used that once or twice though, I preferred to make arrangements with 1-3 other people in a particular class to split time on a book we each pitched in for, if I didn't buy my own copy outright. We didn't use anywhere as many textbooks in the politics or history departments, many of the books I had to buy weren't outrageous. It was an entirely different story for the econ classes, just disgusting.

[Ominous Gamer]

Is that even legal?

You would be amazed the stuff the US allows EULAs to make/keep legal, and if its iffy, thats what deep pocket arbitration is there to protect. Not that a physical copy of a special edition book that your professor, college, and publisher "refresh" every year is going to be worth more than a dead unusable computer file.

but still.

[Khendraja'aro]

You would be amazed the stuff the US allows EULAs to make/keep legal, and if its iffy, thats what deep pocket arbitration is there to protect. Not that a physical copy of a special edition book that your professor, college, and publisher "refresh" every year is going to be worth more than a dead unusable computer file.

but still.

There's only so much changes you can make to a textbook. The core concepts usually stay the same for a long time - and even if there's a revolutionary new concept of some kind, you can still use it as a historical "that's where the field came from" reference point.

Then again, I come from the natural sciences where the Feynman Lectures are still a good contender among the lecture books available.

[Omega]

There are over 1,000 students in your class?

University of Toronto is on the larger side.

If not, check out www.bookdepository.co.uk (there's a US version, just ends in .com), I've found some very cheap books on there.

Thanks!

Regarding the opening post, whether this is dubious or not depends on how popular this professor's textbook is. If it's a standard text in the field, then there's nothing wrong with the guy assigning it. Now if no one in the field uses this textbook other than him, I'd say there's an issue.

Nope, the other sociology teachers use a different book, a book they have no written or contributed to. In fact, i'd be happier if they made a deal with the damn author or something. as long as they were subtle about it.

Well I don't know how it is at Omega's university, but the one I went to the lectures were split into three, two of them had the bulk of students, whilst the third was a smaller class (you had to enrol into which lecture you wished to attend), and apparently even then they couldn't cater for every single person, so the lectures were recorded. Yet another thing that was taken into account was that there were people who would rarely go to the lectures. The only time there weren't any seats left was in the first week (so people just sat on the stairs, even though it was against some fire code crap). It worked out in the end.

Yeah, we have lectures ranging from 30 people (Hebrew) to sociology and psychology (over 1000 student per class), tutorials where we have about 20 to 30 students and a disgruntled student pursuing his post-grad degree teach us, and samewith labs.

The massive lecture hall was led by the professors (they used microphones, btw) and the labs were led by their TAs.

Sometimes it's a pain because we're usually in a convocation hall, lecture hall, or theater, at least first years. The acoustics only make the sound reverberate.

Luckily I managed to avoid this, but one of our profs is notorious for making students buy his own book, and the exam mostly consists of having to know what his opinions on certain issues are. Oh well, he also managed to get one of his books to be a university gift to business relations, which presumably got him a lot of sales as well. To be completely fair, the book isn't bad, but the guy is just a pompous ass who thinks the world of himself and his own opinions.

Exactly what my teacher does. I have to attend his retarded, self-masturbatory lectures. He not only reads off the powerpoint he created, but says, yes, this one time [insert token life experience].

That was how my intro classes were too.

Heh, William and Mary has smaller classes. UVA had enormous lecture halls and classes.