US Social Security Disability -- should it be reformed?

[agamemnus]

Here's to another year of broken government programs.

I wonder how much SSD costs per year. Forget about finding out the percentage waste/fraud/abuse, though it seems endemic according to one believable comment.

WSJ article excerpt: (Can't get no moar cause I'm not a subscriber)

BY DAMIAN PALETTA AND DIONNE SEARCEY

Lawyers Harry and Charles Binder began representing applicants for Social Security disability benefits in the 1970s, when the field was a professional backwater. Last year, their firm collected $88 million in fees for guiding clients through the system, government data indicate, making it the nation's largest Social Security disability advocate by far.

"We'll deal with the government," a cowboy-hatted Charles Binder proclaims in his firm's ubiquitous television ads. "You have enough to worry about."

Having firms like Binder & Binder deal with the government was supposed to be part of the solution for a federal disability-insurance system staggering under a ...

An interesting graphic in the article:

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/i...1221182406.jpg

Some interesting comments:

I believe that this article is soul-searching and the information found therein should be heeded by the powers to be. The UK is now requiring “routine re-evaluations of people with disabilities,” which is definitely a start and is a path that the US should also consider.

As a past examiner and fee basis provider for the federal government (Social Security Disability or SSD), I believe that as President Obama has taken a strong position in regards to the private sector’s mismanagement of business matters, it is now time to bring the federal government’s “continuity house” in order.

The SSD Program has been unable to fix its deeply flawed appeal and inspection process. As it has for decades, the program has no set type of forensic review strategy and efficacy in the reconsideration segment is non-existent. The SSD often have (administrative/secretarial) investigators armed with little more than checklists to ensure Social Security Disability Insurance Program compliance and it is my opinion that case review of disability appropriateness has been undermined by Social Security Disability Insurance managers.

Do I offer any backing? Yes, I have been a psychological examiner for 33 years. I have found that about 20% of those who get Social Security Disability are put on it by error, 40% are not proper recipients after one to two years, and 60% are unequivocally ineligible after two to five years. Of course, I am excluding those with moderate intellectual endowments (mental retardation status at or below 70).

I have reported situations to SSD authorities whereby –

Scenario Disposition

Recipient is working 50+ hours a week Nothing
Recipient has an operational business Nothing
Recipient makes $500 to 600/week and
in one three day period made $3400 Nothing
Recipient tries to bribe me with $500
to get SSD Nothing
Recipient has a referral diagnosis of
bipolar but my view is clear
cultural, i.e. non-clinical
depression (love spat) Nothing
Recipient’s lawyer gives him past reports
of mine to peruse prior to the session
and is told to act “dumb” Nothing
Recipient’s lawyer puts him through a
mock exam and class to prepare him
for the interview Nothing
Recipient is on SSD for vertigo but rides
his Harley Davison motorcycle to my
office for a re-evaluation Nothing

In one case, a man did work on various properties and was paid well for his services (in one case earning $5,000 to 6,000 in one month). When I learned that he was on Social Security Disability, I contacted our local Social Security Office and advised them of the same. I was told that the recipient did not report this income to them and actually had a private business on the side. Copies of all affidavits were sent to the SS Office, and the results over the last eight months have been null except that the SSD Office of General Counsel in Manhattan warned me of pursuing the matter further due to privacy laws! Yes, privacy laws take precedence over criminal behavior! How many thousands of dollars did our government waste? How are we going to get that money back? The rule that people can break federal laws and not be arrested by local and state personnel who have evidence in support of the same is insane. It must be realized that in WC situations, if a claimant is found working and earning monies outside his leave from work status, he goes right to jail?

The illicit drug and alcohol user trying to get Social Security Disability is a problem in and of itself. This might represent 40 to 50% of all adult applicants that came before me. The disallowance of drug testing on these people and those receiving benefits is senseless.

I am not recommending that we stabilize our economy on the backs of the helpless, but I am suggesting that ...

If you think this is a sham, try the fact that even though they have offices in a particular city, they will send an attorney from another state and rack up on Travel Pay. Then if that is not enough, they will have no less than 3 attorneys on 1 case. Don't think they will just get the basic fee oh, no don't let them fool you. They will not honor the fee agreement if they think they can get more money out of you. They will file a Fee Petition, and get upwards of sometimes $20,000 on a case! Yes they will suck you dry!!!!!!!!! They will claim to charge $5000 for one attorney $1500 for one attorney and $6000 on another attorney. And these Attorneys only get a small portion of that even though they are signing their names. The majority of that money goes to..... You Got It! The Man in the Hat!

[Hazir]

Seems like another example of inept administration in the US again. We cracked down heavily on abuse overhere in Holland and I think it's a safe bet there are not all that many cases left of people who managed to abuse the system. No doubt there are anecdotes of people on full disability and still working, but very often people who don't understand the system accuse people of cheating who are actually not cheating at all.

The system here provides for 3 types of disability pensions; first is for people who are fully and permanently unable to work, second is for people who are temporarily fully unable to work, third is for people who are considered able to work partially. After a search period which is based upon your work history, your ability to earn part of your income yourself will be deducted from the pension. This deduction is not dependent on you actually working. People on disability who can work and don't work are well below the poverty line in Holland.

[ImAnOgre]

Just another argument to get rid of the welfare state.

I wonder if I would be against it as much as I am, if there were very few actual abuses....

[Lewkowski]

Oh yeah Disability abuse is rampant. And don't even get me started on FMLA for unprovable things.

[GGT]

Lawyers Harry and Charles Binder began representing applicants for Social Security disability benefits in the 1970s, when the field was a professional backwater. Last year, their firm collected $88 million in fees for guiding clients through the system, government data indicate, making it the nation's largest Social Security disability advocate by far.

"We'll deal with the government," a cowboy-hatted Charles Binder proclaims in his firm's ubiquitous television ads. "You have enough to worry about."

Having firms like Binder & Binder deal with the government was supposed to be part of the solution for a federal disability-insurance system staggering under a ...

The Binder & Binder ads, along with all sorts of medical injury and disability "attorney advocate" ads, have become super common on cable TV.

IMO, it's a reflection of our many dysfunctional institutions that operate strictly on money, for money, by money. Beginning with our medical and healthcare professionals that've been hijacked by the private insurance industry....bleeding into our political process that legislates for and by powerful lobbying groups....not to mention lawyers who'd rather make $88 million in fees by exploiting these systems instead of being real advocates for jurisprudence.

It's ridiculous to attribute this to a welfare (something-for-nothing-entitlement) state, Ogre. In reality, those attorneys are exposing how little public Welfare (well-being) exists in the US.

[Aimless]

Just another argument to get rid of the welfare state.

I wonder if I would be against it as much as I am, if there were very few actual abuses....

Oh yeah Disability abuse is rampant. And don't even get me started on FMLA for unprovable things.

Well there you have it, the key questions: how many people abuse the system, and how much do they cost per year?

[GGT]

Well there you have it, the key questions: how many people abuse the system, and how much do they cost per year?

But that's not how anti-government Americans pose the question, or try to solve the problem. Many would say that government assistance engenders "abuse" of things like family medical leave, while ignoring that most employers don't offer family medical leave, and expect employees to use sick time or vacation time instead. That includes normal and happy events like child birth (without paternal leave) as well as elder care or immediate family funerals.

If employers were slightly more generous with their leave policies, there probably wouldn't be a need for government intervention in the first place.

[Veldan Rath]

FMLA is not offered, it's a requirement based upon size.

Also I deal with alot of companies that offer their own leave programs even if the employee does not fall within the FMLA requirments

[Lewkowski]

But that's not how anti-government Americans pose the question, or try to solve the problem. Many would say that government assistance engenders "abuse" of things like family medical leave, while ignoring that most employers don't offer family medical leave, and expect employees to use sick time or vacation time instead. That includes normal and happy events like child birth (without paternal leave) as well as elder care or immediate family funerals.

If employers were slightly more generous with their leave policies, there probably wouldn't be a need for government intervention in the first place.

Childbirth is not an "unprovable" thing. I'm talking about "headaches" "back pain" and other aliments that can't be proven. Now you could say, "Well Lewk some people *do* suffer those types of ailments." Yeah sure but how come FMLA seems to be taken most often on Fridays then? And corporations are scared to challenge, the doctors really don't give a crap since no one *ever* prosecutes them for fraud for inappropriately signing paperwork stating the worker needs to be out due to X condition.

[Veldan Rath]

Childbirth is not an "unprovable" thing. I'm talking about "headaches" "back pain" and other aliments that can't be proven. Now you could say, "Well Lewk some people *do* suffer those types of ailments." Yeah sure but how come FMLA seems to be taken most often on Fridays then? And corporations are scared to challenge, the doctors really don't give a crap since no one *ever* prosecutes them for fraud for inappropriately signing paperwork stating the worker needs to be out due to X condition.

Well, this is FMLA Lewk, so the employee is not getting paid for the time off, and while it does make life difficult for the employer, it REALLY hurts the other employees more as they have to pick up the slack. Work communities can be quite tight and everybody knows everybody's' business. So a known 'Sick on every 3rd Friday Jack' is not making any friends at the office/assembly-line.

And while I do see the 'frequent flyers' in my line of work, I'm in the Disability/LOA world, and boy do they know how to game the system, they in the end do hurt themselves cause it (unless a union position) hurts their chances for promotion and more importantly, their fellow employees may just make seek their own recourse (see thread about getting rid of workplace irritants).

There are also companies that do give out huge amounts of leave...there is one I know of that gives 30+ months of leave...for 'Union Business'...sweet eh? (again unpaid)

My own company provides an enriched FMLA that is 16 weeks instead of 12...couple that with our Short Term Disability plan (which is concurrent) which pays up to 100% for several weeks (depending upon how long you've been an employee) then down to 60% for the rest, it's not too bad.

Better Half got 6 Weeks FMLA for Bonding (Standard) but his company gives it to him PAID without touching his PTO reserves... while mine did not

It really does depend upon who/what company you work for.

[GGT]

Childbirth is not an "unprovable" thing. I'm talking about "headaches" "back pain" and other aliments that can't be proven. Now you could say, "Well Lewk some people *do* suffer those types of ailments." Yeah sure but how come FMLA seems to be taken most often on Fridays then? And corporations are scared to challenge, the doctors really don't give a crap since no one *ever* prosecutes them for fraud for inappropriately signing paperwork stating the worker needs to be out due to X condition.

Workers with crappy unpaid "leave" policies would be wise to begin FML on Fridays, to take advantage of weekends. It stretches time off, without losing work days that might be needed for sick time. Same principle applies when starting vacations on Fridays. That's not fraud or abuse but smart planning.

It's also not the same thing as 'scamming' to get disability payments. Physicians rarely approve vague symptoms (headaches, back pain) as cause for Long Term Disability. SSD requirements are so stringent that even truly disabled workers have trouble getting the benefits, and only after they've exhausted all other paid time off, including unemployment insurance.

If you're talking about private insurance policies used by businesses to cover their disabled employees, then containing fraud or abuse is their responsibility. Since insurance is your area of 'expertise', you know the loss numbers are huge, and something any business would prefer to pass off to Medicaid or SSD. They often create their business models with very thin coverage, expecting the worker will apply for gov't assistance.

How convenient. When private/corporate interests can't manage the job, punt it to the gov't agencies. Then complain the gov't agencies need to be reformed.

[ImAnOgre]

Well there you have it, the key questions: how many people abuse the system, and how much do they cost per year?

From Wki:

Accurate statistics on welfare fraud are difficult to obtain. In every U.S. state, the penalty for extensive welfare fraud (fraud over a period of years) is prison. Some states offer large rewards for reporting those who are guilty of years of welfare fraud.

[GGT]

Ogre, do you consider SSDI to be "welfare"?

[Aimless]

From Wki:

Yes, which is why it's strange to see people assume that fraud is very widespread and large-scale. How widespread? What scale?

[ImAnOgre]

Ogre, do you consider SSDI to be "welfare"?

I consider it to be a pyramid scheme. I think that its actually worse. let me invest how I want instead of the pathetic interest the government pays. And it won't be there when I retire anyway.

Yes, which is why it's strange to see people assume that fraud is very widespread and large-scale. How widespread? What scale?

I've never seen nor met anyone on welfare that couldn't work. Never met until this year someone who needed foodstamps. When i see the laziness of others and how they take advantage of the government it is very upsetting for someone who bust their ass.

[Aimless]

but surely you've at some point in your life met a disabled person at least?







in any case i'm honestly just curious about the stats

[GGT]

I consider it to be a pyramid scheme. I think that its actually worse. let me invest how I want instead of the pathetic interest the government pays. And it won't be there when I retire anyway.

I've never seen nor met anyone on welfare that couldn't work. Never met until this year someone who needed foodstamps. When i see the laziness of others and how they take advantage of the government it is very upsetting for someone who bust their ass.

Uhm, SSDI = Social Security Disability Insurance. It's not a retirement entitlement like SS, but something people have to apply for if they are or become disabled.

Have you been buying a private, lifetime, no-cap, no cancellation, comprehensive disability insurance plan....in case you have a gun mishap and are permanently blinded, or land in a wheelchair as a quadraplegic? Most people don't even have good coverage for rehab or long-term care, let alone disabilities. And once you can't work for long periods, it's only a matter of time before employer insurance runs out and COBRA kicks in (very expensive, btw). How would you pay the premiums without a job/income?

It's got nothing to do with laziness or foodstamps.

Do you consider all "insurance" to be pyramid schemes?