The British EU referendum; isn't it ironic?
I must say that it's quite remarkable that David Cameron's big attempt to placate the eurohaters in his party (a referendum on EU membership) is doing exactly the opposite; tearing the Conservative Party to shreds only weeks after the campaign has started. And then of course we've got the fact that his friend at number 11 is being ground down in the process.
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Nothing could be less remarkable than the Tory party tearing itself to shreds over Europe. Why this observation needed a thread of its own is something of a mystery however.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Osborne screwed up in the budget which has led to him being damaged (like he was in 2012 for a similar mistake). The impression was given that the Tories were cutting funds for the disabled while the reality is that spending on disability benefits was being increased to a record high. The defense that came out was half-hearted and it was completely screwed up allowing a narrative of "cruel cutting from the disabled" to take grip. Osborne has been a great Chancellor but this was totally mishandled and had nothing to do with the EU. He's recovering though, I believe from what I've heard he defended himself well and came out batting today in Parliament after Labour called on him resign. I think that's probably reminded Tories who the real enemy is.
I have nothing against an open and honest debate over the EU right now, this should be taken seriously. However whichever way the referendum goes I hope that is the end of it and we all accept the result and move on.
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
I am aware of the divisiveness of the topic. But this referendum supposedly was to unite them. And that doesn't seem to be the case.
This topic is about the conservative party. I have no urge to talk about the referendum itself.
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No the referendum itself was not to unite the party, instead it was for the referendum result to put this issue to bed. Instead of having years of neverending bickering on the subject (along with the perpetual whining that its been 40 years since the last vote and so much has changed since then) we instead have a few months of debate as far away from a general election as possible followed by unity afterwards as there's a fresh national result the populace has voted on and settle the issue with.
We haven't had the result yet. The debate within the Tory party has so far been remarkably civil, more civil than I'd have expected. There have been a few malcontents complaining about Cameron and comparing him to Heath but overall the debate is being conducted with a level of mutual respect. That is the first time that has been the case for decades.
So that's what goes for a civil debate amongst friends in the Conservative Party? The only thing that's missing are knives to be buried in each other's backs.
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The Conservative Party doesn't knife leaders in the back, it knives them in the front.
I almost made a new topic and then realised I already made one with this title. So I decided to post here.
I think one can call the Brexit referendum kind of a nuclear option in the relations between the UK and EU. And I think it's sad that Cameron wasted it on virtually nothing.
What he could have done is go to the Council and tell them 'Now listen people, we've got this EU going on here and I kind of like the general tenets of it but we're really making a mess of what could be a real good thing for the people of Europe. It has come to the point that I can't defend it any longer back home and to be honest I don't know if it s worth my while. We really should overhaul the EU and start tackling some issues that have been sticking in my throath for a good while now. First of all we should drastically reform CAP. We should stop acting like we're living in the middle ages when it comes to food production and squeeze the live out of food production in Africa while we're at it. We should also stop fishing policies that make no sense to anybody anywhere. Third we should immediately stop dragging our EP between Brussels and Strassbourg like it's some sort of third rate dog and pony show. Finally, and not least of all we should set up real central oversight of how we spend our tax payer's money. It's ridiculous that all of us around this table act as if the EU shouldn't know how EU money is being spent by us. Like this we'll never get our accounts signed off on'. People simply don't want this anymore. They want us to deliver on making this bloody continent the most competitive on the planet so that our children have a future. Now, if we can make a deal on that I would gladly defend it back home and anywhere else. If you guys think struggling on like you've always done, that's fine with me, but in that case I'll go back to London and ask the British people to allow me to get out.
Now, if he would have done something like that he'd not even have to bother to campaign for either outcome of the negotiations.
In stead we got; faux negotiations on issues that only marginally were of real interest and which (as I already claimed) he mostly could have had with national legislation. With the result the British people are stuck with two campaigns about a referendum without substance, both sounding more and more outrageous in their claims, with the serious risk that the majority of voters will make a vote they can't really justify because they honestly don't know. And that in the end Brexit may happen, with all the subsequent damage for everybody in the EU.
Now, the chance to use Brexit as a tool to reform the EU for the better has been lost, and probably lost for a couple of decades. And that indeed is ironic.
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Except Cameron did start this off by saying things along those lines. The Bloomberg speech he made years ago was excellent: https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...h-at-bloomberg
The problem is Merkel and others weren't too interested in reforms we were suggesting and were more obsessed with the problems in the Eurozone (and then latterly the problems in Schengen which arose after this speech). I don't think either he, nor Merkel, nor the rest of the negotiators took the concept of Britain actually leaving seriously and this referendum rather than being taken seriously was actually seen as a distracting irritant to get out of the way. So no serious reforms were offered, nothing like that discussed in the Bloomberg speech and then even though Cameron had given himself a deadline of the end of 2017 he signed a meaningless pact at the first opportunity and claimed that it was serious. That dishonesty is what has made this referendum ultimately closer than it ever should have been.
However now the idea of Brexit actually occuring suddenly is being taken seriously. If there is as I expect a narrow Remain vote next week then I think there will be a realisation that this was closer than it ever should have been and that the chances of a Brexit in a second vote down the line (especially if the government was on the other side of the ballot) would be high. British politicians have been like backseat children for nearly thirty years now in the EU, moaning about the direction being taken and seeking opt-outs saying "I don't want to do that" while France and Germany take turns at the wheel choosing the next destination. While politicians like Schauble fight relentlessly for what is best for the German taxpayer, too often the British premier just folds to do whatever is best for Europe - eg Blair giving up a large part of the rebate, Brown signing Lisbon, Cameron signing this deal. After a narrow Remain vote our membership will effectively be on probation, we would nationally be giving both the EU and our own establishment a final warning and the British politicians will need to stand up for Britain and become the squeaky wheel in a way they haven't in the last three decades.
Speaking of the irony of British referendums...
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and fascism."
-- Attlee
"The late Lord Attlee was right when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues."
-- Thatcher
Can anyone confirm if these are real quotes and also explain how the erosion of British democracy came about?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
As far as I know they are real.Speaking of the irony of British referendums...
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and fascism."
-- Attlee
"The late Lord Attlee was right when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues."
-- Thatcher
Can anyone confirm if these are real quotes and also explain how the erosion of British democracy came about?
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Tony Blair.Speaking of the irony of British referendums...
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and fascism."
-- Attlee
"The late Lord Attlee was right when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues."
-- Thatcher
Can anyone confirm if these are real quotes and also explain how the erosion of British democracy came about?
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