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Thread: Prognostication and tax law

  1. #1

    Default Prognostication and tax law

    Primer for non-US taxpayers:

    There are two basic kinds of retirement savings/investments in the eyes of the IRS: tax-deferred accounts and tax free withdrawals on principal that has already been taxed (let's call them Roth accounts). Deposits into tax-deferred accounts are not taxed as income, but withdrawals are taxed at normal income tax rates. Deposits into Roth accounts are post-income tax, but anything you withdraw in retirement - including interest/earnings/gains/dividends - is completely tax free. There are various rules and limitations (e.g. contribution limits, income levels, what can/must be withdrawn when, etc.) for the accounts, but let's assume you have a chunk of money that can legally be invested in either one.

    So (US people, start reading here):

    How does one decide which account to invest a chunk of money into? The basic calculation seems pretty straightforward - take your current tax bracket and savings rate, extrapolate your target nest egg to get a rough idea of your tax bracket in retirement, and compare. There are a few wrinkles - it will generally make sense to have at least a little money coming out of a tax-deferred account to take advantage of federal income tax deductions and exemptions (otherwise known as free money), though Social Security benefits or other pensions will also have to be taken into account for tax ramifications.

    But I think the bigger issue facing someone who's currently in a fairly high bracket (say, 25% or 28%) is what their expectations are for tax rates in the future. Even if their tax burden in retirement would be lower under current tax law (suggesting a strategy leaning towards tax deferred accounts), what about policy/political risk? If taxes rise decades from now, wouldn't a Roth strategy make more sense?

    This is a difficult call - I personally haven't a clue what will happen with tax law forty-odd years from now when I retire. Of course, the easy solution is to just keep a mix of tax deferred and Roth accounts to diversify around such 'political risk', but that's obviously a lower yield solution than if tax trajectories can be reasonably predicted. Plenty of pundits argue that higher taxes are inevitable in the future, but a forty-year time scale is awfully hard to be sure about.

    Do any of you have ways of hedging this risk? What about successful predictive models to guess where tax rates (and related financial policy) are going? Lastly, is the relative popularity of Roth accounts since their inception point to long-term pessimism about US tax rates, or is it indicative of assumptions of rising personal wealth - or something else entirely?

  2. #2
    I think if you seriously believe that tax rates will be significantly higher in 30-40 years (not unreasonable), then you must also believe that America will have huge economic problems which have a devastating effect on the value of your money. In that case, you probably shouldn't have money locked away when you think it will rapidly lose its value; better either move it elsewhere or invest in something that won't lose as much value.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    IRA investments can be put into pretty much anything - foreign stocks (though I'll admit they're normally dollar-denominated), gold, other commodities, etc. Doesn't need to be directly tied to the US economy.

  4. #4
    Well I think the popularity of ROTH accounts is due to the fact that the 401k works like a normal IRA. So the bulk of retirement savings (assuming you work for a company with a profit sharing/401k, which up until recently was most major companies) would be in the accounts you haven't paid taxes on yet. So as a simple means of tax diversification any extra retirement savings would get plowed into a ROTH account.

    What will be interesting to see is now with the option of a ROTH 401K will the ROTH IRA become less popular?

    The other added variable is that you can take out money from a Roth IRA without paying any penalties on what you have put in. This makes it more flexible and appealing to risk adverse folks. I think these factors play a bigger role then any type of long-term pessimism for future tax rates.

  5. #5
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Of course, this could all be moot if/when within the next 40 years a certain wing of a certain party decides to tax IRA's
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  6. #6
    They are already taxed, either up front or at the rear. The history of IRAs and 401-Ks is all about tax loopholes in the first place.

    The management fee structures can be as important as the taxes, and it seems that's what changing (?) There are enough hidden taxes and fees we'll all need a tax advisor. yay

    Saw this today:

    If you have even peeked at your account statements in the past year, it's painfully obvious that something is wrong with the way we save. The tax-deferred 401(k) plan, and others like it, such as the 403(b) and the IRA, have become our nation's go-to retirement piggy bank. Invented nearly 30 years ago as an executive perk — one more way to dodge Uncle Sam — the 401(k) was never meant to replace the employer-guaranteed pension fund, supplemented by Social Security, as the cornerstone of our nation's retirement system. But propelled by a combination of companies looking to cut costs and consumers who wanted control of their retirement destiny, that's exactly what happened.

    The ugly truth, though, is that the 401(k) is a lousy idea, a financial flop, a rotten repository for our retirement reserves. In the past two years, that has become all too clear. From the end of 2007 to the end of March 2009, the average 401(k) balance fell 31%, according to Fidelity. The accounts have rebounded, along with the rest of the market, but that's little help for those who retired — or were forced to — during the recession. In a system in which one year's gains build on the next, the disaster of 2008 will dent retirement savings long after the recession ends.

    In what must seem like a cruel joke to many, the accounts proved the most dangerous for those closest to retirement. During the market downturn, the 401(k)s of 55-to-65-year-olds lost a quarter more than those of their 35-to-45-year-old colleagues. That's because in your early years, your 401(k)'s growth is driven mostly by contributions. You control your own destiny. But the longer you hold a 401(k), the more market-exposed it becomes. It's a twist that breaks the most basic rule of financial planning.

    The Society of Professional Asset-Managers and Record Keepers says nearly 73 million Americans, or just under 50% of our working population, now have a 401(k). And collectively we pour more than $200 billion into these accounts each year. But retire rich? Don't bet on it. The average 401(k) has a balance of $45,519. That's not retirement. That's two years of college. Even worse, 46% of all 401(k) accounts have less than $10,000. Today, just 21% of all U.S. workers are covered by traditional pensions, and the number shrinks every year. "The time may have come to consider returning 401(k) plans to their original position as a third tier of retirement planning, behind pensions and Social Security," says Alicia Munnell, who heads the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College. "They should not be the thing we rely on for retirement security." And the government seems to agree. This summer, the Government Accountability Office concluded, "If no action is taken, a considerable number of Americans face the prospect of a reduced standard of living in retirement." That's what is known as an understatement.

    The 401(k)'s defenders say bad markets don't make the accounts a bad idea — and that it's still too soon to tell whether they work. Many companies adopted them less than 20 years ago. Even then, most firms (including mine) still provided pension plans to their workers. So boomers retiring now were never focused on piling money into 401(k)s. In order for the plans to succeed, workers have to stash savings regularly for about 30 years. Most accounts haven't been around that long.


    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/business/ar...#ixzz0yHqWpQiC

  7. #7
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    ROTH IRA's a contributed to post tax. THE worry is that by the time I retire, some yahoos in Congress will decide that I have too much money in my IRA and tax it when I take it out. (like Maine tired to do this year and was shot down)
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  8. #8
    The worry is that even in "retirement" we'll all still be working to make ends meet....

  9. #9
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    What does that have to do with taxing my IRA after I've already paid taxes on the money going in?
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    What does that have to do with taxing my IRA after I've already paid taxes on the money going in?
    Nothing, really. I worry more about losing gains in the future than paying a tax. But that's just me.

  11. #11
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Nothing, really. I worry more about losing gains in the future than paying a tax. But that's just me.
    Depends upon the rate of the tax.

    Would you rather loose 30% of your gains or pay 35% in taxes?

    Or even bloody better

    Take a 30% loss on your gains AND pay a tax? Double Stuff Fuck anyone?
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  12. #12
    Then push to have your employer match what you save, since they're taking it out of your wages (so you pay less income tax). Then manage it yourself, or take it to a fund manager that only charges a 1-2% fee. If you lose 30% on an investment, it's a capital loss and you write that off your income taxes.

  13. #13
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Why would my employer be responsible for matching for my private ROTH IRA?

    Again it is a POST TAX contribution!!!

    I doubt I can write of a 30% hit in my IRA.

    You also did not answer my question about it getting taxed.
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  14. #14
    It's all taxed, just differently or different rates! That's why these accounts were created in the first place, mostly for high-income earners (instead of taxing salaries as ordinary income) as tax shelters! ie get a tax advisor.

    Aren't you glad you didn't retire during the last couple of years, like the people in the article? Feel lucky for the next 20-30 years?

  15. #15
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    At this point, I think we are just talking past each other. But I will try one more time.

    My Private ROTH IRA will not, currently, get taxed when I retire as I pay into it with post tax dollars. My concern (on top of a lesser rate of return due to marked forces) is that between now an then State (as they tried this year) and/or Fed yahoos will make it worse by taxing me on it when I take it out.
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  16. #16
    My concern (on top of a lesser rate of return due to marked forces) is that between now an then State (as they tried this year) and/or Fed yahoos will make it worse by taxing me on it when I take it out.
    I agree liberals would love to do this but I don't think it will happen.

  17. #17
    Prognostication! I hear ya. I'm saying neither future taxes, nor the future value of these accounts can be crystal-balled, any more than our retirement age....

  18. #18
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    @ Lewk.

    yeaaaaahhhh...right.

    Dude, it almost did.
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  19. #19
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Prognostication! I hear ya. I'm saying neither future taxes, nor the future value of these accounts can be crystal-balled, any more than our retirement age....
    Wha????

    Is this why no one directly engages you in discussion?
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Wha????

    Is this why no one directly engages you in discussion?
    IMO you guys are worrying about taxes, as if that's some protection for the future, when none of it can be foreseen. None of it can be prognosticated; not retirement age, not what the markets will do with IRA or 401K values, or anything that's looking forward 20-30 years. That's my point. But if y'all have specific TAX concerns, hire a professional tax advisor!

  21. #21
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    IMO you guys are worrying about taxes, as if that's some protection for the future, when none of it can be foreseen. None of it can be prognosticated; not retirement age, not what the markets will do with IRA or 401K values, or anything that's looking forward 20-30 years. That's my point. But if y'all have specific TAX concerns, hire a professional tax advisor!
    So...do nothing? Just because it's in the future???

    With that logic...why bother setting aside funds for retirement?
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    So...do nothing? Just because it's in the future???

    With that logic...why bother setting aside funds for retirement?
    Then reply to wiggin's questions. You guys can delve into the specifics of his OP. My two cents are spent.

  23. #23
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Then reply to Wiggin's questions. You guys can delve into the specifics of his OP. My two cents are spent.
    I had no real intention of answering as I was just throwing another possibility in the mix.

    But, the answer has already been given (by Wiggin). All you really can do is diversify.
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I think that's an utter load of crap. A tax-deferred stock plan can't guarantee post-employment paradise, so it should be guaranteed by companies who can't make such a promise in good faith?

    401k plans make sense because they are like mini pension funds, but without the systemic risk. Two years of stock losses don't equate to a failed system. 401ks are designed with the idea that market volatility is real, but on the balance values go up over time. That's more realistic than telling a bunch of workers they are guaranteed money for life from a company that may not exist in ten years.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I think that's an utter load of crap. A tax-deferred stock plan can't guarantee post-employment paradise, so it should be guaranteed by companies who can't make such a promise in good faith?

    401k plans make sense because they are like mini pension funds, but without the systemic risk. Two years of stock losses don't equate to a failed system. 401ks are designed with the idea that market volatility is real, but on the balance values go up over time. That's more realistic than telling a bunch of workers they are guaranteed money for life from a company that may not exist in ten years.
    You haven't been watching 401ks for very long.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
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  26. #26
    I recall us going through this before. You claimed that 401ks were doing worse than the S&P 500. Wiggin and I called BS and asked you to give us a few representative examples. You came up empty.

    Even the most boring Vanguard funds (like one of the ones I use) has outperformed the major indexes, which isn't even the goal of many 401k funds.

  27. #27
    yeaaaaahhhh...right.

    Dude, it almost did.
    By your state? Because no way do I see that happening on the federal level. Come to Texas we won't try to screw you that way.

    I mean seriously even liberals are going to be gun shy of going after the Roth IRA. The Roth accounts are not havens for rich folks, there are income restrictions.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Well I think the popularity of ROTH accounts is due to the fact that the 401k works like a normal IRA. So the bulk of retirement savings (assuming you work for a company with a profit sharing/401k, which up until recently was most major companies) would be in the accounts you haven't paid taxes on yet. So as a simple means of tax diversification any extra retirement savings would get plowed into a ROTH account.
    [...]
    The other added variable is that you can take out money from a Roth IRA without paying any penalties on what you have put in. This makes it more flexible and appealing to risk adverse folks. I think these factors play a bigger role then any type of long-term pessimism for future tax rates.
    I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say... but if it's that the Roth account provides a good diversification strategy outside of work-related plans that are invariably tax-deferred, I agree. Then again, why not go for a traditional IRA instead of the numbers don't work out in your favor?

    Honestly I think the reason is that most people overestimate how much wealth (and annual income) they'll be able to call on in retirement. Thus, they have inflated expectations of their tax bracket in retirement and think it's a good deal.

    I personally like my Roth account just because it allows you to withdraw the principal investments at any time, penalty-free. It's a nice place to stash cash that doesn't need to be super liquid but I might still need soonish (e.g. savings for a house, car, that sorta thing) - and the interest/dividend/capital gains are tax free in retirement. Of course that only works as long as I'm putting enough retirement money into that and other assets, which I am. Tax diversification is a nice add-on, but to be honest I have no idea what my tax situation will be like. Also, if I end up moving out of the US, the tax ramifications are muddy at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    The management fee structures can be as important as the taxes, and it seems that's what changing (?) There are enough hidden taxes and fees we'll all need a tax advisor. yay

    Saw this today:
    [Time article]
    That article is a load of crap. The statistics they cite are meaningless - they look at numbers of individual 401(k) accounts, and not total (401)k savings per household. Lots of people fail to roll over their accounts. Furthermore, it's not surprising that most accounts are pretty anemic, given demographics and the relatively recent provenance of the 401(k). Lastly, the issues they cite aren't a problem with the 401(k), but they're a problem with people who have unrealistic expectations of free lunches. Someone is going to have to pay for all of that retirement, and companies were fed up dealing with longevity risk. Getting rid of pensions also freed up the labor market in very positive ways.

    I will agree that there is a fundamental issue of individuals assuming all of the longevity risk instead of companies - it causes individuals to be much more conservative with their nest egg distributions in fear of outliving their money. There are easy instruments to fix this, though - buying annuities or similar products can hedge longevity risk in a fairly reasonable manner.

  29. #29
    I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say... but if it's that the Roth account provides a good diversification strategy outside of work-related plans that are invariably tax-deferred, I agree. Then again, why not go for a traditional IRA instead of the numbers don't work out in your favor?
    Tax diversification. Your 401k/traditional IRA is also pre-tax and ROTH is post tax. Will tax rates go sky high? A Roth is some insurance against it.

    Honestly I think the reason is that most people overestimate how much wealth (and annual income) they'll be able to call on in retirement. Thus, they have inflated expectations of their tax bracket in retirement and think it's a good deal.
    I think its one of the positive things about America, our optimism. Though it seems to be in shorter supply these days. Even if they are wrong its not like the Roth is the bulk of their nest egg, most of it will be from the 401k.

    Tax diversification is a nice add-on, but to be honest I have no idea what my tax situation will be like.
    Which is why tax diversification is good. Since your not sure what the future will bring you hedge your bet a bit.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I think that's an utter load of crap. A tax-deferred stock plan can't guarantee post-employment paradise, so it should be guaranteed by companies who can't make such a promise in good faith?

    401k plans make sense because they are like mini pension funds, but without the systemic risk. Two years of stock losses don't equate to a failed system. 401ks are designed with the idea that market volatility is real, but on the balance values go up over time. That's more realistic than telling a bunch of workers they are guaranteed money for life from a company that may not exist in ten years.
    So you didn't like the Time article, okay. Even though it said a few bad years don't make a failed system, just a horrible situation for millions retiring in a down market. Many were forced to take hardship withdrawals or loans against their 401-K during the Great Recession, systemic risk didn't disappear.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    .... Tax diversification is a nice add-on, but to be honest I have no idea what my tax situation will be like. Also, if I end up moving out of the US, the tax ramifications are muddy at best.
    Again, find a tax advisor.

    That article is a load of crap. The statistics they cite are meaningless - they look at numbers of individual 401(k) accounts, and not total (401)k savings per household. Lots of people fail to roll over their accounts. Furthermore, it's not surprising that most accounts are pretty anemic, given demographics and the relatively recent provenance of the 401(k). Lastly, the issues they cite aren't a problem with the 401(k), but they're a problem with people who have unrealistic expectations of free lunches. Someone is going to have to pay for all of that retirement, and companies were fed up dealing with longevity risk. Getting rid of pensions also freed up the labor market in very positive ways.
    So you didn't like the Time article either, okay. You think people planning retirement want a free lunch? Does your employer contribution count in that? Think how employers could be "freed up" if they didn't have 401-Ks to match or manage.

    I will agree that there is a fundamental issue of individuals assuming all of the longevity risk instead of companies - it causes individuals to be much more conservative with their nest egg distributions in fear of outliving their money. There are easy instruments to fix this, though - buying annuities or similar products can hedge longevity risk in a fairly reasonable manner.
    Of course folks are fearful of outliving their money! Just ask retirees or those near retirement whose nest egg was busted the last couple of years, without another 20 years of full employment to make up the gap. Many are grocery baggers and Walmart greeters now, or staying in their jobs until 70-75. No, there aren't "easy instruments to fix this" or it would be done by now.

    It's interesting, the young people who have such faith in their 401-K and IRA with market swings 30 + years forward, when the whole scheme hasn't been around for 20 years yet. That was my reason for linking the Time article....

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