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Thread: Views of Health Care Economics from a CEO Named Bush

  1. #1

    Default Views of Health Care Economics from a CEO Named Bush

    By ROBB MANDELBAUM
    Published: September 8, 2010

    In the world of health care innovation, the founder and chief executive of Athenahealth has an outsize name. In part, that’s because his name is Jonathan Bush, and he is the nephew of one former president and the cousin of another. But it’s also because his company has mastered the intricacies of the doctor-insurer relationship and become a player in the emerging medical records industry.

    Based in Watertown, Mass., Athenahealth offers a suite of administrative services for medical practices. It collects payments from insurers and patients, and it manages electronic health records and patient communication systems. All of this is done remotely through the Internet — or “in the cloud,” as Mr. Bush puts it. Doctors don’t have to install or manage software or pay licensing fees; instead, Athenahealth keeps a percentage of the revenue.

    Lately, Athenahealth’s stock price has been hammered by news of an internal accounting audit and missed earnings expectations. By July its shares had fallen by more than half from their January high. (They have since reversed some of that decline.)

    Even so, the company’s sales have grown substantially over the last couple of years. While the bill collection service still accounts for most of the sales, the company’s fastest-growing business has been its electronic records segment, which has benefited from provisions in the 2009 stimulus law and this year’s health care overhaul.

    What follows is a condensed version of a conversation with Mr. Bush about how he built a small medical practice into a national enterprise with nearly 1,200 employees, and how the new health care law is likely to affect businesses — small firms as well as his own.

    Q. Athenahealth got its start when you purchased a birthing practice in California back in 1997. But you’re not a doctor — why did you buy it?

    A. You know, Bush family noblesse oblige. I wanted to take advantage of all this education and support I’ve had and do well by doing good, and health care seemed like a place that no one else in my family had been much. A new approach to health care seemed to me to be the oil fields of 1997.

    Q. So what led you into the administrative services business?

    A. I ran into all of the problems that medical practices ran into, all of which were unrelated to medical care. I couldn’t get my claims paid, I couldn’t make payroll because of all of these ridiculous regulatory and insurance rules that were changing all the time and were very esoteric, and the technical infrastructure to connect and move around was incredibly poor.

    We had 13 little offices up and down San Diego County, and they were running up against scale-based obstacles, things that would need real management infrastructure and capital to do properly. So we built a little Web site for ourselves called Athenanet, and pretty soon all the doctors in the neighborhood wanted to be on Athenanet.

    In fact, when we were trying to raise venture capital to go do more birthing centers, and it wasn’t happening, one of the venture capitalists said in passing that he would give me $11 million for an unlimited license to Athenanet [laughs]. And I think our pre-money valuation for the whole company was $7 million. It was as if a budding, small airline wakes up to find that they invented the Sabre system.

    Q. Your revenue has grown 40 percent in each of the last two years, from $98 million to $189 million —

    A. Don’t you love it?

    Q. Well, not as much as you do.

    A. And yet, the Street hates me. I don’t know.

    Q. What’s going on in the health care industry to deliver that kind of growth to you?

    A. We are a disruptive technology. We are the only cloud-based service in an industry segment full of sclerotic, enormous, personality-free corporations that have been in business making 90 percent margins doing nothing for decades and decades.

    Q. What keeps other companies from building cloud-based systems?

    A. For software companies, the biggest barrier to entry is that they give up their business model. Those companies would get hammered on Wall Street if they started selling a service that they have to deliver at a loss for five years. In terms of new entrants, there are two things that we’ve done that would take a good decade to replicate. One, we’ve built out the health care Internet. We’ve been building connections into insurance companies and laboratories and hospital medical records for years and years and years.

    And the other barrier to entry is that rules engine. Every time a doctor anywhere in the country gets a claim denied, we have analysts ask the Five Whys. When we get to root cause, we write a new rule into Athenanet and from that day on, no other doctor gets that particular denial from that particular insurance company ever again. We now know of 40 million ways that a doctor can have a claim denied in the United States. The average practice has to rework about 35 percent of their claims, and we only have to rework about 5 percent of ours.

    Q. What’s the prognosis for bill collecting under health care reform?

    A. Well, there’s going to be new connectors and a whole series of new insurance products that will be managed by the states’ health insurance commissioners. And the law provides for every state to do all of these its own way, so they will have their own rules and regulations, and each state will do it differently. That sounds like springtime in Complexity Land.

    Q. What do you think will happen to the total cost of health care under reform?

    A. Oh, it’s going to go through the roof! It’s widely accepted that this is not a cost-reform bill — it’s an access bill. It’s in fact a cost-expansion bill.

    Q. Last year, Dr. Atul Gawande made a pretty cogent case, writing in The New Yorker, not just that the small pilot projects in the reform would control costs but that they are the only way to control costs in an industry as sprawling as health care.

    A. I e-mail a lot with Atul and he’s a product of the Borg, at some big institution, and thinks in terms of papers and grants from Washington. I totally agree that demonstration projects are what changes a market, but outside of the Borg, we call those businesses. I suppose Washington trying to be an innovator also is fine, but at some point the demonstration project is going to have to be consumers using their judgment about which things they want.

    Q. If you were still a small company, or if you were starting a business now, would health care reform help or hurt you as an employer?

    A. Well, certainly the idea that somebody else is going to pay a lot of my health insurance cost, at the micro level, makes a lot of sense. It’d be great, yeah, thanks — anything else you want to pay for? If you actually ever have to start paying this thing, all of this accelerates the increase in the cost. Eventually, consumers will need to eat a big part of their health care cost, because health care will fundamentally consume the entire G.D.P. in the not-too-distant future.

    Everybody agrees that this is good in the way that it creates engagement in society by those who are outcasts. So if you’re feeling like you don’t want to believe in America anymore because you don’t have health insurance, well, now you can believe a little more. It’s bad in terms of the macro economy. But I don’t know which one is more important in the grand scheme for today.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/bu...html?_r=1&8dpc

    Bush noblesse oblige. Oil fields of 1997.

    I agree with him that this reform was about insurance access and not medical cost control.

    Sounds arrogant for him to end it with *shrug, costs will go through the roof, it'll be bad for the macro economy but I don't know which one is more important in the grand scheme for today* then laughs on his way to the bank. And he wonks about only 5% of their docs getting a denial from insurance companies. Woo hoo, innovation via loopholes, damn actual medical practices and guidelines! There's money in them thar oil fields!

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    addendum:
    Every time a doctor anywhere in the country gets a claim denied, we have analysts ask the Five Whys. When we get to root cause, we write a new rule into Athenanet and from that day on, no other doctor gets that particular denial from that particular insurance company ever again. We now know of 40 million ways that a doctor can have a claim denied in the United States. The average practice has to rework about 35 percent of their claims, and we only have to rework about 5 percent of ours.
    "Analysts" are often sophisticated computer programs, with data entry from utilization review nurses, who can add pre-existing conditions to override any DSM or ICD coding system. This was the origin of "pre-admission certification" or "prior authorization" that Insurers required, purportedly to reduce costs. This used to be a big bugaboo for physicians (Insurers dictating medical practices). This is why physicians need office staff, LLCs or networks, hospitals need UR departments, and they both need benefits/insurance 'analysts'. Might be a great way to employ millions of people in health care field, but not necessarily by reducing costs or improving quality of care.

  3. #3
    I don't see why you're attacking the guy. He seems to be offering a valuable service and isn't charging as much as his competitors for it...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I don't see why you're attacking the guy. He seems to be offering a valuable service and isn't charging as much as his competitors for it...
    I'm criticizing another layer of fees that only benefits another middle man. It might help in collecting fee-for-service, but says nothing about improving our delivery of care, let alone quality care for patients. Digital medical records wasn't supposed to just foster a payment (profit) relationship between physican-insurer.

  5. #5
    Presumably if doctors can get paid on a larger portion of their claims, they could charge patients less for their services. I still don't see the problem. Bush isn't the first guy to offer this kind of service, and, from the article at least, seems to be doing it better and for cheaper than the alternatives.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Presumably if doctors can get paid on a larger portion of their claims, they could charge patients less for their services. I still don't see the problem.
    You don't see a problem with fee-for-service? Let alone adding another person whose incentive is to get a cut based on those services? You don't see a problem with physician-insurer based relationships instead of physician-patient relationships?

    Bush isn't the first guy to offer this kind of service, and, from the article at least, seems to be doing it better and for cheaper than the alternatives.
    This isn't really about Bush. It's about added administrative costs guised as cost-cutting measures. It's about the future of our "healthcare reform" that's not about Health or Care or Reform---it's just dancing around for Insurance companies---and a pretty crappy monopoly buster at that.

  7. #7
    Companies charging money for offering a service? The horror. Next thing we know, people will get paid different salaries and the government won't control every industry! I still fail to see your problem. Under any system, either insurers or the government would have to approve some claims and deny others. It makes sense for doctors to use a service that would minimize the latter.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Companies charging money for offering a service? The horror. Next thing we know, people will get paid different salaries and the government won't control every industry! I still fail to see your problem. Under any system, either insurers or the government would have to approve some claims and deny others. It makes sense for doctors to use a service that would minimize the latter.
    You're trying to apply cost/benefit ratios to medicine, like you would for a muffler shop.

    Physicians need to be paid for their expertise, time and services, of course. What makes sense is physicians knowing and caring about standard practices for high quality care with good results, not "what would Insurance pay" or "what would the government approve" or cloud data systems trying to get a profit from exploiting gaps or transitions.

    This isn't my problem you jerk, it's a problem for everyone.

  9. #9
    ....it's one thing to buy a computer service that streamlines billing, or coordinates patient data and medical records. It's another thing to buy a service promising "better returns" on payment that's disconnected from actual patient care and outcomes. That's medicine for insurance. I dislike this notion that physicians need a fourth party to help them justify payment from a third party, instead of practicing good medicine and logically expecting payment to follow.

    I expect my provider to know the difference between care and compensation. But maybe that's just me.

    I suppose plenty of other people might be happy to have their doctor say, "Well, you've got a high fever so we need to do a complete blood profile, blood cultures, 24 hour urine, lumbar puncture/spinal tap, and some x-rays! We need to rule out everything before we can treat you appropriately!" I don't want an insurance company to step in and say uhh uhh, that's too much. I don't want a doctor who practices that way, either out of fear of lawsuits (defensive medicine) or inadequate education (diagnostics by technology only). And I sure as hell don't want doctors buying computer programs trying to second guess insurance companies, or dictating their practices based on payment.

    What do you want?



    Adding this for anyone who's interested:

    http://www.metlife.com/individual/em...icy/index.html

    Interesting that CAT insurance can still lead to medical bankruptcy, or that traditional 80/20 major medical isn't "enough" any more, and the Insurance Industry is creating yet ANOTHER tool to serve our needs! There's another whiff out there, suggesting that our health insurance be tied to our life insurance (so they can decide the cost/benefits). Where the hell is the AMA, the medical education community, the patient advocates? Why are we all still rotating around the Insurance providers, and their spawn?
    Last edited by GGT; 09-09-2010 at 06:48 AM.

  10. #10
    And the other barrier to entry is that rules engine. Every time a doctor anywhere in the country gets a claim denied, we have analysts ask the Five Whys. When we get to root cause, we write a new rule into Athenanet and from that day on, no other doctor gets that particular denial from that particular insurance company ever again. We now know of 40 million ways that a doctor can have a claim denied in the United States. The average practice has to rework about 35 percent of their claims, and we only have to rework about 5 percent of ours.
    What

    the

    fuck





    Athenahealth has done a good job of reducing one of the more important problems in an undeniably borked system. But, honestly, it might be better to just unbork the system so you that you don't have 40 million ways in which you and your patients can get hassled
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Athenahealth has done a good job of reducing one of the more important problems in an undeniably borked system. But, honestly, it might be better to just unbork the system so you that you don't have 40 million ways in which you and your patients can get hassled
    Exactly!

  12. #12
    Let me ask you a basic question GGT. What is your preferred method of rationing health care?

  13. #13
    "Rationing"
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  14. #14
    Athenahealth sounds to me like a sensible innovation

    We pay for a similar company for anything emploment-related. They are our legal advisors, health and safety advisors, run payroll for us (what a headache) and everything is done online. Get a new starter: create them on the website, add in their details, scan and upload their proof of right to work in the UK (eg passport) and other important documents and then within a few days we'll have a contract for them and they'll get paid etc, etc ... if I need to fire them though then the company will tell me what steps to take to make sure I don't break the law. And if an employee thinks I'm treating anyone unfairly, then there is a "careline" where anyone can raise any concerns to be addressed.

    So long as everything is followed, we shouldn't break any employment-related laws and if we do then they'll pay for it not us if we followed their advice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    What

    the

    fuck




    Athenahealth has done a good job of reducing one of the more important problems in an undeniably borked system. But, honestly, it might be better to just unbork the system so you that you don't have 40 million ways in which you and your patients can get hassled
    How?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    "Rationing"
    Its the right word.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Let me ask you a basic question GGT. What is your preferred method of rationing health care?
    By physicians' expert advice. For example, that means I want doctors to know how much it costs to keep a terminal patient alive for just two more weeks, and can discuss the pros and cons with the patient, and what costs mean. I also want doctors who don't give up on patients who could live two more years, just because insurance won't pay for their care. And I don't want them to punt to another service, because they're no longer being compensated.

    I'd really like it if physicians and other health professionals held the keys to the future of our care, instead of insurance monopolies.

  16. #16
    Demand for health-care if 'free' would be essentially infinite, as a result healthcare in the UK is rationed through organisations like NICE.

  17. #17
    Who said anything about "free"?

  18. #18
    If clinical need was the concern rather than cost then it would be free surely?

  19. #19
    Plus who would decide clinical need? Individual doctors? If that was the case, I can see GGT starting chicken little threads about doctors wasting taxpayer money on unnecessary procedures.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If clinical need was the concern rather than cost then it would be free surely?
    What? All physicians know nothing is "free". Care comes with costs of technology, personnel, time of service.... and always with emotional costs for patient and family.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Plus who would decide clinical need? Individual doctors? If that was the case, I can see GGT starting chicken little threads about doctors wasting taxpayer money on unnecessary procedures.
    Scroll back Dr. Loki and see where I mentioned standard professional practices, the AMA, other health professionals and patient advocates. But it does sound much more hysterical when you mix GGT, chicken little, and taxpayer money in the same sentence.

  22. #22
    And who decides standard professional practices, especially given the rapidly changing technology and procedures in the medical field? We're back to square one about doctors submitting claims for procedures and some higher entity having the right to reject.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    This isn't really about Bush. It's about added administrative costs guised as cost-cutting measures.:
    Those added costs are already there and they're not going away. Congress deliberately turned its back on cost-containment as too scary for them to attempt *and in choosing to focus on expanding an already cost-accelerating system, they made it much much harder for anyone else to try and contain costs in the future* So what I see is you objecting to someone who built a business on minimizing a preexisting administrative cost.

    I have little sympathy or empathy for someone who has had a revelation about the massive overheard in the industry, after screaming about how many people lacked coverage in the health-care discussions over the last few years, despite the numerous claims by others on how cost-containment needed to come first. It's a bit late.
    Last edited by LittleFuzzy; 09-09-2010 at 04:41 PM.
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  24. #24
    The dude said "Bush noblesse oblige" to the New York Times.

    But I find this part the most interesting:

    Doctors don’t have to install or manage software or pay licensing fees; instead, Athenahealth keeps a percentage of the revenue.
    So...basically they are like credit card processors for insurance claims? That's a very interesting model.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    How?
    I have no idea, maybe shoot the insurers and reboot that industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Demand for health-care if 'free' would be essentially infinite
    Free is good, when it's free it's easier to say "no". With that said not very many people are all that keen to waste their time on appointments involving unnecessary poking of bums and liberal drawing of blood. Many people aren't even particularly interested in taking medicines. Time is money, inconvenience is money, there is no such thing as free healthcare even when it doesn't cost money. Moreover, physicians are perfectly capable of having a dialogue with patients in order to minimise unnecessary interventions. In some places they may even be inclined to have such a dialogue rather than to succumb to greed or to fear

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Plus who would decide clinical need? Individual doctors?

    And who decides standard professional practices, especially given the rapidly changing technology and procedures in the medical field?
    ... I'm not sure what you mean with these objections or why they're especially relevant to this discussion given that, for most physicians, the medical interview and the physical exam remain the most valuable tools for both diagnosis and treatment. They're augmented by some tech and some labwork, sure, and there are a lot of drugs that may be useful, but it's not like every patient requires an MRI or a gamma-knife Medical technology may develop at a high pace but clinical practice doesn't change at the same pace. That's probably a good thing it's good to have a good idea of what you're buying.

    PS. Good practice can sometimes be difficult to establish, but it's not as if it's always impossible. Check out www.pubmed.com for more info
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #26
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Demand for health-care if 'free' would be essentially infinite, as a result healthcare in the UK is rationed through organisations like NICE.
    You have a rather strange definition of "infinite". There's only a finite number of humans on this planet of which only a finite percentage is ill at a given point.

    Thus painting the demand for healthcare as "infinite" is a rather dumb way to try to sway the argument your way.

    If you'd said that the demand is greater than the available capabilities of the system, that would be correct, but your statement is essentially bullshit.
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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Free is good, when it's free it's easier to say "no". With that said not very many people are all that keen to waste their time on appointments involving unnecessary poking of bums and liberal drawing of blood. Many people aren't even particularly interested in taking medicines. Time is money, inconvenience is money, there is no such thing as free healthcare even when it doesn't cost money. Moreover, physicians are perfectly capable of having a dialogue with patients in order to minimise unnecessary interventions. In some places they may even be inclined to have such a dialogue rather than to succumb to greed or to fear
    Disagreed with the idea its easier to say no when its free, its easier to say no when its not free - because people don't ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    You have a rather strange definition of "infinite". There's only a finite number of humans on this planet of which only a finite percentage is ill at a given point.

    Thus painting the demand for healthcare as "infinite" is a rather dumb way to try to sway the argument your way.

    If you'd said that the demand is greater than the available capabilities of the system, that would be correct, but your statement is essentially bullshit.
    Its not dumb, I didn't say it was infinite, I said it was 'essentially' infinite, which it is.

    If everything was free then you'd have demand for far more than you do now, for everything possible. Not only of course do people live longer with more healthcare, thus needing even more healthcare in later age in a circle, but make everything free and freely available: Every type of drug, minor treatments, IVF, cosmetic surgery ... if you don't draw the line anywhere (and there's no nation in the world that I know of which makes all medicine free at the point of use) then the demands grow and grow to such a far away point that we not only couldn't cope but it is essentially infinite. Not literally, but in practice it essentially is.

    Even if a nation cancelled all other unnecessary expenditure and concentrated solely on healthcare the spiralling and continuous demands for it would always outstrip the supply of it now.

  28. #28
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Disagreed with the idea its easier to say no when its free, its easier to say no when its not free - because people don't ask.
    Its not dumb, I didn't say it was infinite, I said it was 'essentially' infinite, which it is.

    If everything was free then you'd have demand for far more than you do now, for everything possible. Every type of drug, minor treatments, IVF, cosmetic surgery ... if you don't draw the line anywhere (and there's no nation in the world that I know of which makes all medicine free at the point of use) then the demands grow and grow to such a far away point that we not only couldn't cope but it is essentially infinite. Not literally, but in practice it essentially is.
    Then your definition of "essentially" is weird. Point is, you're laying on the hyperbole pretty strong here in order to make your argument unattackable. But, hey, let's redefine words so that we can make up anything we want, by simply adding "essentially" to it!

    For instance, my medical treatment, when I need it, is essentially already free of cost to me (see? I'm just using your definition of "essentially" here). Does that mean that I demand a shitload of my doctor every time I get the chance? Nope.

    Thus your theory has just essentially been refuted as theories only need one counterexample to invalidate them.

    Maybe you shouldn't make such sweeping essential statements which reality essentially does not support?
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  29. #29
    If all your medical treatment that you could ever possibly need is all guaranteed free of charge, unrationed based on medicine only with no concern to money then I will agree with you that my claim is refuted. Before I do a few questions:

    If you get sick are all drugs free of charge for you?
    If so are all drugs available to you? EG regularly in the UK there are stories about drugs, especially expensive experimental drugs or drugs with low success rates (but higher than not having the drug)
    Can you get IVF etc on-demand whenever you feel you need it?
    Ditto for any forms of cosmetic surgery?

    Hell even just 1 or 2 I doubt you really get.

  30. #30
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Your questions do not establish any kind of qualifier on the amount of demand. They're simply building the framework. As such, they're strawmen. You do not seem to understand your own argument.

    And the demand for experimental drugs is rather limited, my dear. Don't try to inflate numbers of, what, a hundred, a thousand? into a Gazillion Trillion of pounds! Because, y'know, that still falls under the heading of "limited". Pretty far from infinite, too, unless you now want to tell me that the great bank crash also burned an infinite amount of money.

    Essentially, you're guilty of hysteria - pumping a picture of "medicinal support is limited" up into "OMG! If we went free, an infinite number of humans would ask for an infinite number of procedures! And we only have limited ressources! And anybody know what happens when you divide a finite number by infinity! That means everyone gets ZERO treatment! OMG!"

    I detest that kind of arguing. It's cheap demagogic. Honestly, if your arguments held any kind of water, you would not need such trashy tactics.

    And, by the way, voluntary cosmetic surgery is not health care - unless you've been maimed or somesuch (in which case it is unvoluntary and covered by insurance, at least in Germany). Please don't build another strawman by lumping voluntary cosmetic surgery and health care together.
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