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Thread: Back to High and Rising US Health Care Costs

  1. #1

    Default Back to High and Rising US Health Care Costs

    I recall in one of the health threads a few months back discussing why US health care costs are so high and keep rising. Nobody in the public discourse at the time, or now, seem to be looking for and addressing the cause of the rise. Indeed the big idea floated by conservatives in congress was to simply cut and cap what could be paid out for Medicare and Medicaid. Paraphrasing myself here, that may solve the government's budget probelm, but it doesn't at all adress the real problem we all face: the very high and ever rising cost of health care. So I asked the community here what that cause was and iirc the only one who floated a suggestion was Loki which was that increasing medical technology was the driver of increasing cost. This morning NPR had a blurb about a study published in the Journal of Health Affairs that concludes a big reason we pay so much in the US is higher doctor fees.

    The Journal article, which I have not read, is here: http://content.healthaffairs.org/con.../1647.abstract

    For your convenience, here's the abstract:

    Abstract

    Higher health care prices in the United States are a key reason that the nation’s health spending is so much higher than that of other countries. Our study compared physicians’ fees paid by public and private payers for primary care office visits and hip replacements in Australia, Canada, France, Germany, the United Kingdom, and the United States. We also compared physicians’ incomes net of practice expenses, differences in financing the cost of medical education, and the relative contribution of payments per physician and of physician supply in the countries’ national spending on physician services. Public and private payers paid somewhat higher fees to US primary care physicians for office visits (27 percent more for public, 70 percent more for private) and much higher fees to orthopedic physicians for hip replacements (70 percent more for public, 120 percent more for private) than public and private payers paid these physicians’ counterparts in other countries. US primary care and orthopedic physicians also earned higher incomes ($186,582 and $442,450, respectively) than their foreign counterparts. We conclude that the higher fees, rather than factors such as higher practice costs, volume of services, or tuition expenses, were the main drivers of higher US spending, particularly in orthopedics.
    We have previously talked about our Fee For Service payment system in the US as a source of our higher costs, but not in the context of the fees themselves being unreasonably high. In the previous discussions, it was about incentives to order unneccessary tests and procedures. The more a doctor orders up, the more the doctor gets paid, so the incentive is backwards. Here in this study we add to the discussion that, independant of expenses, the fees themselves are much higher than comparable fees in other industrialized nations. So a move from fee for service to a salary pay structure would likely have an even higher cost reduction effect, going beyond reduction of waste but also reducing excessive charges.

    Are there other ways to 'right size' the fees we pay doctors? Maybe there ought to be legislated caps on fees based on benchmarking what is commonly paid in a variety of other countries. I am already imagining the response from TWF's majority cadre of conservative free marketeers. But is there a free market means to address this particular problem (assuming you accept it is a problem)? How do you use the fact that doctors get paid a lot less in other countries, independant of costs remember, as a means to drive down unreasonably high pay in the US?

    I recall that prior to the Medicare Drug Perscription legislation, many people were crossing the border to Canada - or mail ordering via internet Pharmacies - to get around the unreasonably high price of drugs in the US. That looked a lot like market based competition, and the Bush Administration squashed it at the request of US pharmacies. Is the AMA, or whatever other medical doctor professional association, that powerful too? Is this a route to reducing our excessive health care costs or just another non-starter? With all the influence our system of government lets private entities, especially wealthy private entities, exercise on policy, how can something like our health care cost problem ever be fixed?
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  2. #2
    We conclude that the higher fees, rather than factors such as higher practice costs, volume of services, or tuition expenses, were the main drivers of higher US spending, particularly in orthopedics.
    I didn't read the article either, but how did they isolate US fees from high practice costs and tuition expenses? Physicians often graduate with tons of debt and loans to pay off, and even a low interest rate doesn't change the total dollar amount due. Opening a new practice or buying an existing one requires lots of money and more loans. Operating a practice means rent, hiring employees, medical malpractice insurance--all fairly costly. That's why physicians find recruitment into existing networks so appealing, even with their internal restrictions on referrals or diagnostic sites.

    AHA and AMA have power and lobbyists, so does the Insurance industry. Not sure any of them would welcome the kind of legislated caps you're talking about. They already find Medicare and Medicaid caps too low to cover their costs and profits, and shift the losses onto private insurance and self-pay charges.

    Other nations with "free" or heavily subsidized medical education can't really be compared to our private or public universities, either. It's easier for them to pay a lower salary to doctors who don't carry tons of loans, and easier to have lower fees for services when they aren't trying to pay for an on-site radiology department with all the bells-'n-whistles and employees (like many orthopedic surgeon groups have).


  3. #3
    Uhm, you assume these higher fees are unreasonable. Isn't is just as possible the lower fees are unreasonable, and the only reason fees are higher in the US is because our healthcare system is less regulated and it's closer to the true market price of the care given? One reason already mentioned is that medical school is heavily subsidized in most other countries, but is extremely expensive in the US. That just means that instead of society bearing the burden for educating doctors (indirectly through taxes), the people who actually use the doctors are paying for their educations. There's a host of other implicit subsidies.

    The bigger point, though, is that in many other countries doctors' pay is sharply circumscribed by healthcare system rules - sometimes so tightly controlled that they're all effectively government employees. I'm not saying this is a good or bad idea, but it does suggest that the market value for their work is higher than their actual compensation. Being a doctor is generally seen as extremely difficult - requiring high native intelligence, hard work to get into medical school and succeed academically, and grueling hours (at least in med school and residency, and often well beyond). They also forfeit the first ~10-15 years of post-undergrad life to either paying money for their education or being paid peanuts for 80 hours a week of highly skilled labor - and salaries for residents are set by the government. Why shouldn't they make a comfortable living and charge a significant portion of money for their services?


    Oh, obviously it's more complex. For example, certain services might be more expensive just due to artificially created supply shortages. Numbers of doctors going into different specialties is controlled by funding for residencies, which is done through Medicare. So vested interests (yes, including doctors) can artificially limit the number of doctors in a given field to drive up the price (it can also lead to suboptimal public health outcomes). Another issue is that doctors want to keep control of a lot of procedures/tasks that they simply aren't needed for, which keeps demand for their services artificially high, even though it could be done with a lower skilled, cheaper worker (like a technician or a nurse practitioner or whatever). So I'm not suggesting doctors are completely the victims here, but it's not at all clear that they are overpaid. They provide valuable, highly skilled services, and should be compensated accordingly.

  4. #4
    Uhm, you assume these higher fees are unreasonable. Isn't is just as possible the lower fees are unreasonable, and the only reason fees are higher in the US is because our healthcare system is less regulated and it's closer to the true market price of the care given? One reason already mentioned is that medical school is heavily subsidized in most other countries, but is extremely expensive in the US. That just means that instead of society bearing the burden for educating doctors (indirectly through taxes), the people who actually use the doctors are paying for their educations. There's a host of other implicit subsidies.
    Why don't we send our students to those countries to learn then fly them back to the U.S. eventually they'd regulate against us .

    --------------

    I think the costs are so high is because there is a barrier to entry to opening hospitals and clinics. It's absurd the costs for many basic procedures. A person gets X-rayed, told they need a 15 dollar sling to be put on their arm for a few months and the bill is 800 dollars does that seem realistic, shouldn't we be able to accomplish such care much cheaper.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    Why don't we send our students to those countries to learn then fly them back to the U.S. eventually they'd regulate against us
    Actually, this is a real issue, but the other way around. I know a large number of Western-trained physicians who do fellowships in major US hospitals/research centers, but who eventually have to return due to agreements between the countries limiting doctors trained in one state from going to another state, effectively taking the cost of their education with them. I don't know exactly how the system works, but it's a challenge for some European/Israeli/etc. physicians who want to stay in the US for one reason or another.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Are there other ways to 'right size' the fees we pay doctors? Maybe there ought to be legislated caps on fees based on benchmarking what is commonly paid in a variety of other countries.
    Sounds like an outstanding way to reduce the domestic supply of doctors. (Which is all that those laws capping doctor compensation or fees really manage to accomplish. Health care becomes cheaper, but less available.) Wiggin, I think, did a good job of pointing out why other countries have lower health care fees, but let me ask you what you think is fair compensation for doctors is? They go deeply into debt and spend almost a decade in higher education before they can even practice at all, at which point they typically need to take on even bigger debts (to buy or start up a practice), all for the privilege of delivering advice and care to whiny, sick people who may well sue them for tens of millions of dollars if there's a problem or mistake made.

    As it is, I personally wouldn't take that job for half a million in profits a year (which, of course, the government'll take more than half of), so I find your claims that US doctors make unreasonable amounts of money to be ridiculous. They make money proportional to the costs and stresses of their profession.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I don't know exactly how the system works, but it's a challenge for some European/Israeli/etc. physicians who want to stay in the US for one reason or another.
    Yup, the US immigration system is a shitty clusterfuck that hurts the US, and it's like this with most/all fields of study. System subsidizes tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on a foreigner's education, and when the foreigner wants to contribute to the economy that educated him, he's presented with a bewildering array of rules and regulations that impede him from doing so, based on bigoted fears about brown people, and moronic fears about highly educated foreigners exploiting American social services, like that sweet $300 a month (for up to 4 years) "welfare" net we have.

    It'd be funny if it wasn't so harmful to everyone.
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  7. #7
    This is a great thread, Chaloobi. Wish I could read the paper.

    It really is a tough issue, however I think there are solutions within a private-market healthcare system. The main problem is our private-market healthcare system needs a complete regulatory and structural refresh to change the backwards-incentives (which you describe) and malformed government pricing (which I think is an issue).

    Without being able to examine the methodology of the paper, let's assume for a moment that our fees for equivalent services are higher for the same quality of service. It's plausible and I'm inclined to agree, but I imagine there are people who would assert that we're getting more variety/quality for the money.

    However, the US medical pricing system is broken because the two major price-influenced are dysfunctional.

    1) Insurance- Insurance companies operate under an insane patchwork of state-by-state regulation. Generations of "there should be a law!" legislation has turned insurance into an industry trying to exist within a massive amount of mandates, which are often in conflict. Despite being part of an enormous part of our economy, the insurance industry still manages to only make razor-thin margins.

    The government's regulatory nonsense comes with a sweetener, in which the insurance companies are given de-facto state-level monopolies and tax incentives that favor employer-based insurance.

    Obamacare sort of recognizes the issue that true competition for health insurance is needed, but the legislation doesn't actually create the conditions for real national insurance competition.

    Regulation and reform should be about standardization and simplification. Because insurers have a heavy-hammer to negotiate lower prices, a more competitive insurance market with a not-insane regulatory system would allow this to happen with a lot more dynamism.

    2) Medicare/Medicaid- As Wiggin points out, in many countries the government basically caps wages for physicians. That is basically making medical practice a state institution, which I really don't think is a good idea. Our prices do reflect the market realities here (regardless of whether that market is broken).

    The abstract mentions that public payers in the US have a lower premium than private payers. This is a reflection of government capping fees and creating a price schedule that may not reflect reality.

    Ever seen how much dermatologists make? The pricing structure is completely out of whack. I had a mole removed two years ago and the doctor billed $1k for a ten minute procedure. I showed the bill to a med-school friend specializing in dermatology and she said it's normal. I

    I recently interviewed someone buying-into my co-op as a pied a terre and an apartment for his kids. The guy submitted two years of W2s with an income of $1.3 million. And he's just the local dermatologist in a suburb nearby.

    The even-higher fees for private medicine suggest that private payers are being used as a release valve. Similarly, I think the higher prices paid for drugs in the US reflects our population being used as a profit center while other countries benefit from price-caps on drugs. By banning individual drug purchases abroad, US government wasn't quashing competition, as much as it was mitigating the impact of other countries quashing market-based pricing.

    ***

    I had a conclusion here, but I think I've written enough to digest for the moment.

  8. #8
    Our private insurance industry has become the "weakest link". Their razor thin profit margin is only partially true, Dread. They make massive amounts of money, enough to pay several thousand employees that have become gatekeepers of care, with their own bureaucratic red tape. They add to costs instead of containing them, that's how middle-men work.

    The mandates to complain about (IMO) should be those the insurance lobby actually wanted---particularly employer subsidized insurance. Talk about a sweet deal, for the insurance industry. Dermatologists, cardiologists, and orthopods make shit loads of money, mostly because of our senior and aging population. They can charge $1,000 for mole removal because the insurer can be counted on to pay at least 80% of that...and offset reimbursement from Medicare often less than half that. They can bill different rates for different groups, and it's impossible to know the true cost of anything. Millions (billions?) of dollars are hidden at the employer group purchasing level, the individual employee premium/co-pay level, and everyone in between from billing to human resources. Basically all those things that add cost but don't really improve care.

    There are other "hidden" costs most people are never aware of, like cytology or pathology, messenger or transport fees, maybe second opinions. For the biopsy of that mole. How would they know, if all they ever get is a co-pay charge of something ridiculously low like ten or twenty bucks?

    That's why "Obamacare" was a big fat flop. It mostly helps insurers and middle men, not patients and not quality of care. I think most people aren't just willing but quite glad to see highly educated doctors receive great sums of money for their expertise. After all, they do save lives! But it has to make sense and actually reflect what they do. Not how many loopholes or unnecessary tests are added, or how much debt they're trying to pay off.

    Plus, all that great quality care should be available to everyone, not just those with generous employers who can get great deals for their employees, or wealthy people who can afford to pay cash OOP.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    They add to costs instead of containing them, that's how middle-men work.
    Wrong. Surprise, surprise, right?

    They charge for a service. Evil "middle men" actually have the effect of reducing costs, believe it or not. This is based on elementary economics, which we all know you don't believe in, so I don't expect you to accept this particular reality, but I thought I'd throw that out there for anyone else who might be interested in something resembling an actual discussion, or reality in general, etc.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    They charge for a service. Evil "middle men" actually have the effect of reducing costs, believe it or not.
    Wrong, partially. You assume that the demand for middlemen is not occasionally artificially baked into the law...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Wrong. Surprise, surprise, right?

    They charge for a service. Evil "middle men" actually have the effect of reducing costs, believe it or not. This is based on elementary economics, which we all know you don't believe in, so I don't expect you to accept this particular reality, but I thought I'd throw that out there for anyone else who might be interested in something resembling an actual discussion, or reality in general, etc.
    There you go again.

    Granted, insurers, as middle men, charge for their service. Some of that means representing an employer as they hash out UCR with providers, trying to get special group rates. Most of it's promising to track their members' paperwork, filing forms and handling billing or utilization review. None of that actually improves the quality of care, or reduces the costs of care.

    If the insurance industry could do both those things, how many wouldn't have a problem with "Obamacare" proposals?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Wrong, partially. You assume that the demand for middlemen is not occasionally artificially baked into the law...
    That's not an issue with [the economic class/category of] middle men, but an issue known as "compliance costs." (The cost of complying with legislation.) And even then it doesn't matter - without the middle men to comply with legislative requirements, that responsibility would fall on each individual. It costs less to have a specialist handle the thousands of pages of legislative shit than have each individual do it.

    So, even in that case, middle men still reduce the cost of whatever service/product.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    None of that actually improves the quality of care, or reduces the costs of care.
    Maybe not in your imaginary world, but in the real world, they do reduce the total cost of care. Again, this is back to basic economic principles you don't believe in, and refuse to acknowledge, so there's no point in explaining it to you for 497th time.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    If the insurance industry could do both those things, how many wouldn't have a problem with "Obamacare" proposals?
    And if I had a hot, 18 year old billionaire wife, I wouldn't go to work.

    See if you can figure out what my hypothetical has in common with yours, and why they're both exactly as relevant to the topic at hand.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    That's not an issue with [the economic class/category of] middle men, but an issue known as "compliance costs." (The cost of complying with legislation.) And even then it doesn't matter - without the middle men to comply with legislative requirements, that responsibility would fall on each individual. It costs less to have a specialist handle the thousands of pages of legislative shit than have each individual do it.

    So, even in that case, middle men still reduce the cost of whatever service/product.
    Oh come on, who are you trying to kid here? Getting rid of "middle men" has long been known as a way to reduce costs. Just ask Sam Walton. You can try to call them compliance costs, but they're really just added and superfluous transfer fees. Doesn't matter if we're talking about Walmart t-shirts or dermatologist mole removal. Whenever there are "middle men" using intermediary steps, a new cost will incur. Wholesale vs Retail.

    Maybe not in your imaginary world, but in the real world, they do reduce the total cost of care. Again, this is back to basic economic principles you don't believe in, and refuse to acknowledge, so there's no point in explaining it to you for 497th time.
    Bullshit. If health insurance was the answer to better care and lower costs, we wouldn't have such an expensive delivery system that fails to deliver quality care to so many US citizens.



    And if I had a hot, 18 year old billionaire wife, I wouldn't go to work.

    See if you can figure out what my hypothetical has in common with yours, and why they're both exactly as relevant to the topic at hand.
    OH FFS.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Uhm, you assume these higher fees are unreasonable. Isn't is just as possible the lower fees are unreasonable, and the only reason fees are higher in the US is because our healthcare system is less regulated and it's closer to the true market price of the care given? One reason already mentioned is that medical school is heavily subsidized in most other countries, but is extremely expensive in the US. That just means that instead of society bearing the burden for educating doctors (indirectly through taxes), the people who actually use the doctors are paying for their educations. There's a host of other implicit subsidies.

    The bigger point, though, is that in many other countries doctors' pay is sharply circumscribed by healthcare system rules - sometimes so tightly controlled that they're all effectively government employees. I'm not saying this is a good or bad idea, but it does suggest that the market value for their work is higher than their actual compensation. Being a doctor is generally seen as extremely difficult - requiring high native intelligence, hard work to get into medical school and succeed academically, and grueling hours (at least in med school and residency, and often well beyond). They also forfeit the first ~10-15 years of post-undergrad life to either paying money for their education or being paid peanuts for 80 hours a week of highly skilled labor - and salaries for residents are set by the government. Why shouldn't they make a comfortable living and charge a significant portion of money for their services?


    Oh, obviously it's more complex. For example, certain services might be more expensive just due to artificially created supply shortages. Numbers of doctors going into different specialties is controlled by funding for residencies, which is done through Medicare. So vested interests (yes, including doctors) can artificially limit the number of doctors in a given field to drive up the price (it can also lead to suboptimal public health outcomes). Another issue is that doctors want to keep control of a lot of procedures/tasks that they simply aren't needed for, which keeps demand for their services artificially high, even though it could be done with a lower skilled, cheaper worker (like a technician or a nurse practitioner or whatever). So I'm not suggesting doctors are completely the victims here, but it's not at all clear that they are overpaid. They provide valuable, highly skilled services, and should be compensated accordingly.
    Do you think that'd be a discussion worth having?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Oh come on, who are you trying to kid here? Getting rid of "middle men" has long been known as a way to reduce costs. Just ask Sam Walton. You can try to call them compliance costs, but they're really just added and superfluous transfer fees. Doesn't matter if we're talking about Walmart t-shirts or dermatologist mole removal. Whenever there are "middle men" using intermediary steps, a new cost will incur. Wholesale vs Retail.
    Uh, yeah, Sam Walton is a "middle man." Well, was. Now he's a corpse. His massively successful organization that became worth billions of dollars is a classic example of a "middle man" organization. As in, that's what retail organizations are. "Middle men."

    Nice epic fail, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Bullshit. If health insurance was the answer to better care and lower costs, we wouldn't have such an expensive delivery system that fails to deliver quality care to so many US citizens.
    Right, I'm sure it would be cheaper for you to personally handle the tens of thousands of PAGES of health care legislation every time you needed medical care. No? Well, you don't have to, because some evil insurance middle man provides that service to you, for a price. Which still reduces your health care costs from what they would be without that evil insurance middle man.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Uh, yeah, Sam Walton is a "middle man." Well, was. Now he's a corpse. His massively successful organization that became worth billions of dollars is a classic example of a "middle man" organization. As in, that's what retail organizations are. "Middle men."

    Nice epic fail, though.
    Uh, no. Epic reading comprehension failure is yours. Sam Walton was the classic NON middle man. He had his own truckers, trucking company, and distribution centers. If he didn't like prices paid for name brands like Coke or Pepsi, he started his own generic brand. If Coke or Pepsi balked at that, they knew not to make a fuss because of Walmart's aggregate national sales power. Even if Cokes or Pepsis sold at one cent over production costs, it would still bring them millions of profits. That's why Walmart thrived and grew---wholesale prices at retail convenience.



    Right, I'm sure it would be cheaper for you to personally handle the tens of thousands of PAGES of health care legislation every time you needed medical care. No? Well, you don't have to, because some evil insurance middle man provides that service to you, for a price. Which still reduces your health care costs from what they would be without that evil insurance middle man.
    Now it's my turn to ask what the fuck you're smoking. Health care consumers don't have to deal with tens of thousands of pages of legislation to get care. And it's not because insurance middle men have agreed to do that for us, for a price. Or that providers or employers have agreed to use them as middle men, for a price.

    The only reason insurers hold their VIP status is that they've helped keep the system bigger and more cumbersome than any consumer ever needed, and their lobbyists were able to persuade legislators how very important they were.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Uh, no. Epic reading comprehension failure is yours. Sam Walton was the classic NON middle man. He had his own truckers, trucking company, and distribution centers. If he didn't like prices paid for name brands like Coke or Pepsi, he started his own generic brand. If Coke or Pepsi balked at that, they knew not to make a fuss because of Walmart's aggregate national sales power. Even if Cokes or Pepsis sold at one cent over production costs, it would still bring them millions of profits. That's why Walmart thrived and grew---wholesale prices at retail convenience.
    Neat. Added "middle man" to the list of phrases GeeGee doesn't know the actual meaning of.

    https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...iki/Middle_man

    Just for your education, edification and rejection, a "middle man" is a person or business in between the actual producer of a good service, and the end consumer. That is the DEFINITION.

    So WalMart (like all retailers) is a middle man, because it doesn't actually produce products, nor does it actually consume the products it purchases. It purchases products from the companies that actually produce them, and then resells those products to consumers.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Now it's my turn to ask what the fuck you're smoking. Health care consumers don't have to deal with tens of thousands of pages of legislation to get care. And it's not because insurance middle men have agreed to do that for us, for a price. Or that providers or employers have agreed to use them as middle men, for a price.
    And, in your delusional perception, just who does deal with all those thousands of pages of legislation, if not the middle men, and not the users? No one? Bureaucracy fairies?

    Remarkable. It's like every time I think you've said the craziest, wrongest thing ever said, or even possible, you come out and top yourself. Too bad that's not a marketable skill.
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    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  18. #18
    What the hell? How can Walmart be a middle man or third party, when they are ALSO the producer, distributor, transporter, and retailer? Are you seriously trying to say Walmart and Sam's Clubs (or any other direct distributor) have NOT cut out several middle men and that's why their costs are so low? I have no idea why you can't see that some companies are their own "middle men", so it's not like some fucking wiki definition.

    How do you think generic store brands work, or why they're always cheaper than national name brands? Don't you read your breakfast cereal boxes and milk containers?


    And, in your delusional perception, just who does deal with all those thousands of pages of legislation, if not the middle men, and not the users? No one? Bureaucracy fairies?

    Remarkable. It's like every time I think you've said the craziest, wrongest thing ever said, or even possible, you come out and top yourself. Too bad that's not a marketable skill.
    You can't seriously believe that patients or providers deal with thousands of pages of legislation. Or that those thousands of pages of legislation make care better or cheaper. The only thing those thousands of pages of legislation do is keep attorneys employed, legislators busy, and insurance companies as the middle men. All at billable hours and easy profits.

    How's that make our health care system better and more affordable for more people? It doesn't.

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    God can’t match ma hole & pa pole sex.

    Every male on Earth born of a woman.

    Your Dictionary will explain Viviparous.

    Believers Ego kills Teen for queer image.



    Hands Flat on Table With Thumbs

    Touching – Proves You Are Mirror

    Opposites – Not A Diabolic ONEist.

    Opposites Pulsate Life, One Is Death,

    Earth Has 4 Days In Same 24 Hours.



    TIMECUBE4 Transcends 1 Day God.



    Humans are wiser at birth than after

    fully educated – for they are taught

    negativistic anti-life ONEism that does

    not exist on opposite + & - pole Earth.

    It devastates Life’s pulsating antipodes.

    Human metamorphosis has 4 life stages.



    Without instituting the TimeCube 4 day

    principle on Earth, 4 races are doomed

    to the coming ONEness of hell on Earth.

    Don’t forget, you are ONEist retarded,

    1 perspective voids your opposite rationale.


    FREE SPEECH in AMERICA is "BULL STUFF" LIE

    BY IGNORAMUS EVIL EDUCATORS - who

    block and suppress.

    You are educated evil,

    and might have to kill

    the evil ONE teaching

    educators before you

    can learn that 4 corner

    days actually exist -but

    all Cube Truth denied.

    Dumb ass educators fear

    me and hide from debate.

    They are paid to teach a propaganda book - not

    Cube Truth - for which

    they would be fired. Evil

    teachers betray students,

    as ONE is a Death Value.

    Cube 4x4 voids 1 & God.

    USA ripe for holocaust.

    Man evolves from teenager -

    in cube metamorphosis

    but ignores teenager to

    worship a Queer adult,

    guised in woman's garb,

    churchman called father.

    Adult god is adult crime

    upon their own children.

    More holocaust deserved.

    The 12 hour or 1/2 Day clock is an intended EVIL against humanity -

    indicting every human on Earth as Dumb, Educated Stupid and Evil -

    for imaginary Cubed Earth has 4

    Days within simultaneous rotation.

    One God would equal a God Dunce

    as Humans evolve from Children.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  20. #20
    Stop that, Cain. Seriously. You might think it's witty or something, but it's not. You might think it's part of your GeeGee is a moron mantra, but it just makes you look like an immature and oppositional teenager. My kids can do that better than your feeble adult attempts.

    Look, if you don't want to discuss containing US health care costs from spiraling out of control, while increasing quality of care or serving more people efficiently, then either bow out of the thread, or move back to Canada.

  21. #21
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Did you see the movie Matrix? Actually the
    induced night "dream world" is synonymous
    with the academic religious induced daytime
    "word world" enslavement of humans. Word
    has no inherent value, as it was invented as a
    counterfeit and fictitious value to represent
    natural values in commerce. Unfortunately,
    human values have declined to fictitious
    word values. Unknowingly, you are living
    in a "Word World", as in a fictitious life
    in a counterfeit nation - which you could
    consider Matrix induced "Dream World".
    Can you distinguish the academic induced
    "Word World" from the natural "Real
    World"? Beware of the change when your
    brain is free from induced "Word World"
    enslavement - for you could find that the
    natural "Real World" has been destroyed.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  22. #22
    Go to sleep, Cain. Log off, drink some water, and get some sleep. The forum won't disappear.

  23. #23
    Cain, seems a bit over the top. This is a quality thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    There you go again.

    Granted, insurers, as middle men, charge for their service. Some of that means representing an employer as they hash out UCR with providers, trying to get special group rates. Most of it's promising to track their members' paperwork, filing forms and handling billing or utilization review. None of that actually improves the quality of care, or reduces the costs of care.

    If the insurance industry could do both those things, how many wouldn't have a problem with "Obamacare" proposals?
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What the hell? How can Walmart be a middle man or third party, when they are ALSO the producer, distributor, transporter, and retailer? Are you seriously trying to say Walmart and Sam's Clubs (or any other direct distributor) have NOT cut out several middle men and that's why their costs are so low? I have no idea why you can't see that some companies are their own "middle men", so it's not like some fucking wiki definition.

    How do you think generic store brands work, or why they're always cheaper than national name brands? Don't you read your breakfast cereal boxes and milk containers?

    You can't seriously believe that patients or providers deal with thousands of pages of legislation. Or that those thousands of pages of legislation make care better or cheaper. The only thing those thousands of pages of legislation do is keep attorneys employed, legislators busy, and insurance companies as the middle men. All at billable hours and easy profits.

    How's that make our health care system better and more affordable for more people? It doesn't.
    The existence of a bureaucracy doesn't add to costs by default, especially if insurance companies are devoted to negotiating better prices on behalf of their whole subscriber base. However it's tough to do that with all the mandates that you also recognize are a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Do you think that'd be a discussion worth having?
    Yes. Though it seems like it could head towards a fundamental capitalism/incentives vs. socialism/communalism discussion if we're not careful.

  24. #24
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Cain, seems a bit over the top. This is a quality thread.
    Or was, until someone came into it and started claiming that Walmart manufactures everything from high-end 60" flat screen TVs to toothpaste and paper towels. It's apparently the most varied and dynamic goods manufacturer in existence.

    I'm always open to suggestions, so how should I have responded to that kind of completely bat-shit insane, no-connection-to-reality what-so-ever TimeCube caliber lunacy? Since explaining things never works [with the poster in question], nor does logic, nor rhetorical hyperbole, what's wrong with posting TimeCube excerpts in an attempt to illustrate how utterly insane and delusional her positions [here in particular] are?

    Neither me posting that, nor GGT claiming that Walmart manufactures PlayStations precludes a quality discussion on the causes of high health care costs in America, and I'm happy to discuss that, but as a prerequisite to discussing the role that middle men play in the economy (or in the total costs of health care, in the particular case I was responding to), the other party attempting the discussion has to have some idea of what a middle man actually is and actually does. Where's the "quality" in a thread where every other post is from GGT, claiming that health care is increasingly expensive in America because Walmart manufactures Maytag refrigerators and Quaker State motor oil? That's not quality discussion, it's channeling kathsung.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Or was, until someone came into it and started claiming that Walmart manufactures everything from high-end 60" flat screen TVs to toothpaste and paper towels. It's apparently the most varied and dynamic goods manufacturer in existence.

    I'm always open to suggestions, so how should I have responded to that kind of completely bat-shit insane, no-connection-to-reality what-so-ever TimeCube caliber lunacy? Since explaining things never works [with the poster in question], nor does logic, nor rhetorical hyperbole, what's wrong with posting TimeCube excerpts in an attempt to illustrate how utterly insane and delusional her positions [here in particular] are?
    There's always the ignore function if you need it. It's better than the other place's was! You could also simply stop responding. I get your point with the spam, but it's still spam, and was kinda disrupting the thread more than anything GGT was doing, and there have been complaints.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Wrong. Surprise, surprise, right?

    They charge for a service. Evil "middle men" actually have the effect of reducing costs, believe it or not. This is based on elementary economics, which we all know you don't believe in, so I don't expect you to accept this particular reality, but I thought I'd throw that out there for anyone else who might be interested in something resembling an actual discussion, or reality in general, etc.
    Ideally yes. But I'm not at all convinced that's how the insurance system is actually working.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  27. #27
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    There's always the ignore function if you need it. It's better than the other place's was! You could also simply stop responding.
    Well, I'll give it a look, but that's really not optimal (to me), given how some people get around here... with the "no one refuted it or objected to it, so it must be right, and I'll bring that up 3 years later in a discussion about something else" thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I get your point with the spam, but it's still spam, and was kinda disrupting the thread more than anything GGT was doing, and there have been complaints.
    Noted.

    But, whatever, in deference to the complaints, I'll shut up now and stop disrupting the fruitful discussion that was budding about how Walmart's massive-scale manufacturing of almost every consumer good imaginable increases health care costs in America. And I eagerly await the discussion getting back on that track, FWIW.

    EDIT: since Fuzzy snuck it in before I posted...

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Ideally yes. But I'm not at all convinced that's how the insurance system is actually working.
    Well, a screwed up, distorted tangle of 50 different legislative jurisdictions'll do that. I'm not saying the system actually works, just that it works better than it would if the evil insurance middle men got eliminated and individual patients and doctors had to handle that aspect personally, per GGT's assertion... line of thought... insinuation.... well, whatever you wanna call it.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  28. #28
    Imploring the use of middle men where they are in a seperate business outside your own, would raise cost over being able to buy that company out, and use their workers at their hourly rate. If you can own all the parts to your production you will lower your costs, and in effect be able to provide lower more competitive pricing on goods, and services.

    As for this insurance-medical field problem.

    I think we should look at statistics on what people use the most (say standard-checkups) and find ways to improve and reduce the cost of using those devices and services. Spend R&D into them. For example, maybe there's a cheaper build/make to X-ray machinces or whatever, or we can make the process go faster (seems speeding up processes may be our biggest way to save). For medication we need a way to increase the competitiveness of drugs in the market, I don't know if our regulations on pills are making a unneccessarily too high of barrier to entry; however, if other countries have made a pill legal, and we haven't.. I feel we need to priotize that drug in testing que of what's being allowed.
    Last edited by Lebanese Dragon; 09-09-2011 at 04:43 PM.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Do you think that'd be a discussion worth having?
    Sure! You can probably guess where my feelings tend to lie on this one, but I do think it's a complex issue. If the supply of something is artificially constrained by the suppliers who effectively exert a monopoly (i.e. doctors control roughly how many doctors in a given specialty there are), it's probably not unreasonable to force them to charge fair prices. On the other hand, if someone who's very bright and very skilled spends a good chunk of their life getting trained to do a challenging job, shouldn't they be compensated a fair market wage rather than an arbitrarily set government value? And as a corollary, won't more and more of the best and brightest move into other fields where their skills are compensated better? I'm tempted to draw comparisons with teachers, but I'm not sure I want to go there.

    IMO it's better to err on the side of taking away control from the system - both from ridiculous issues of supply/etc. in the US and from physician pay in many other countries - but I can see arguments for needing some of these controls for a greater societal good. *shrugs* If you want to have the discussion, we can have it.

  30. #30
    I think Dread nixed it.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

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