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  1. #1
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Default So, the drought in California

    Well, that's about what you can expect if you're consuming more water than is replenished by natural means. Par for the course, so far.

    I'm a bit astounded by the industry's (read: agriculture) attitude towards policy changes by the government, however. They're criticising attempts to regulate which plants they should plant as "disturbing the free market" and "having unwanted economic effects".

    Well, d'oh. What do they think will happen if there's even less water than there currently is (which for this years is practically guaranteed)? Talk about "unwanted economic effects". One of the better examples of the "tragedy of the commons" - even when the consequences of their profligacy are staring them right in the face, they still want to continue as if nothing will ever change.
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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    They don't want to disturb the free market? This coming from farmers? They are aware they are subsidised, and even their water should be much, much more expensive?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  3. #3
    I can't really think of any industry in the US that's less free market than agriculture.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #4
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I guess it's the usual reaction of "regulations are bad if they're bad for me! Nevermind that my business will collapse in a few years time anyway if we don't do something!"
    When the stars threw down their spears
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    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #5
    This is the industry that managed to have the government legislate price floors and to give them money for burning crops.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6
    Northern CA farmers are supposedly selling their water (for higher profit margins) instead of planting crops.

    This is their worst drought since the 70's....with rainfall and snow pack the lowest in at least a century. This affects more than just the agriculture industry -- when peoples' wells run dry, and they have to buy bottled drinking water at $5/gallon -- that's serious stuff.

    Water Rights and Land Use management in CA have been a mess for decades. Giving preference to farmers and crop irrigation, so they could turn desert land into major food-production, seemed like a good idea about a hundred years ago. But it doesn't make much sense to grow high water-use commodities like rice when water is the more valuable (and scarce) commodity.

    On top of the drought, they're expected to have another year of massive wildfires.....

    what a mess

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Northern CA farmers are supposedly selling their water (for higher profit margins) instead of planting crops.

    This is their worst drought since the 70's....

    what a mess
    Word I heard this morning is "they" are calling it the worst drought in the last 1000 years. Not sure how "they" conclude that - tree ring data to guesstimate rainfall history?
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  8. #8
    $5 a gallon of bottled drinking water? Do you buy water made from gold? It costs under $2.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    $5 a gallon of bottled drinking water? Do you buy water made from gold? It costs under $2.
    The price of water varies by state, as does the price of gas.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    $5 a gallon of bottled drinking water? Do you buy water made from gold? It costs under $2.
    Maybe she buys only French bottled water. So posh.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  11. #11
    Bottled water? Not so much.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    Or she buys pint-sized bottles and then pours then into a gallon one...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    And I'm also guessing it depends on whether you call something a drought based on how much water is available, or how much you need. I'd say the latter is the problem, but luckily also fixable! I read farmers water their crops using extremely wasteful means, mostly by simply flooding the fields. Hell, even in famously dry Netherlands we don't do that...
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Word I heard this morning is "they" are calling it the worst drought in the last 1000 years. Not sure how "they" conclude that - tree ring data to guesstimate rainfall history?
    You do use the tree ring data and it's not a bad proxy at all, but whoever "they" are would be wrong if they're using the tree ring data. The tree ring data says that there have been much much worse droughts in California history and that what is considered "normal" rainfall, as per the last 150 years, is actually one of the wettest periods in the area's history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    And I'm also guessing it depends on whether you call something a drought based on how much water is available, or how much you need. I'd say the latter is the problem, but luckily also fixable! I read farmers water their crops using extremely wasteful means, mostly by simply flooding the fields. Hell, even in famously dry Netherlands we don't do that...
    It depends on the crop and the local irrigation solutions. Some crops that's the best method (see rice). Of course, IMO, those are crops that probably shouldn't be planted around here.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    what is considered "normal" rainfall, as per the last 150 years, is actually one of the wettest periods in the area's history.
    That's very interesting in and of itself - do you have a link or anything?
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  16. #16
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    That's just big government run amok. Just like banning certain types of light bulbs. Its all about the government picking economic winners and losers and scoring points with the green lobby.
    No it isn't. It's government doing what it's supposed to do - addressing problems that the private sector is incapable of addressing in a way that doesn't cause long term unnecessary cost/ suffering.

    Thanks for the links. Not that you probably care, but the science link is broken, I skipped the NYT because of it's age, the national geographic was very good, I skipped the USA today because of the source (as if ) and the one for kicks was perfect.

    The broader issue highlighted here is that our modern civilization has grown so rapidly there is no way to know whether the natural systems some parts of it rely upon - like water availability in the southwest - are stable in any longish term way. Well, there is a way to know as discussed in the articles, but in this specific case only way after the fact... Seems like the desalination business may be a good longish term investment bet out West.
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  18. #18
    Must be pretty bad if the Energy Commission are mandating the standards of toilets and faucets that can be sold.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Loocid View Post
    Must be pretty bad if the Energy Commission are mandating the standards of toilets and faucets that can be sold.
    That's just big government run amok. Just like banning certain types of light bulbs. Its all about the government picking economic winners and losers and scoring points with the green lobby.

  20. #20
    Not all of us use the eye-burning theme.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Not all of us use the eye-burning theme.
    No idea how that formatting got in there...
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  22. #22
    If drought becomes *bad enough* then yes flow from public water can be capped. Again allow people freedom to use it how they desire. If they want to water their lawn and make up the savings with low flush toilets - good for them. If they don't mind their lawn going to crap but like to take 3 hour shows good for them. Its about liberty and the government NOT choosing economic winners and losers. Because guess what 'green' companies give money to politicians and oh wow their competitors get regulated out of business. Hmmmm...

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If drought becomes *bad enough* then yes flow from public water can be capped. Again allow people freedom to use it how they desire. If they want to water their lawn and make up the savings with low flush toilets - good for them. If they don't mind their lawn going to crap but like to take 3 hour shows good for them. Its about liberty and the government NOT choosing economic winners and losers. Because guess what 'green' companies give money to politicians and oh wow their competitors get regulated out of business. Hmmmm...
    So you are for water rationing?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Spenni View Post
    So you are for water rationing?
    When necessary yes. But again don't tell me how I need to ration water.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    When necessary yes. But again don't tell me how I need to ration water.
    Would you agree that it might be better to charge more for water first (or even charge for water use at all - apparently some people don't even have water meters)? I mean, then you already get an incentive to save money. Problem is of course that in at least the short term it will hurt farmers (a lot), and the poor. But I think that simply charging for water use would already help a lot. I don't know about the earn back time of water saving devices like these, to be honest - but I know that for example a new fridge can be earned back in a few years already here (or even one year, if it's a really crappy old one). But if there's no limit on use, and you pay the same no matter how much you use, then yeah, the only way to get water saving devices would be mandating it.

    Either way it seems to me that while switching to less water draining houses is a good thing, it's a mere drop in the bucket in the total water use. Farms is where the use is highest (and the waste the biggest). But if water is subsidized to such a low price that you can grow rice in a place like California, apparently competitively.. well, it's why I find the farmers complaining about the government 'disturbing the free market' funny - because if they dropped all influence, the farmers would be in big trouble.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If drought becomes *bad enough* then yes flow from public water can be capped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spenni View Post
    So you are for water rationing?
    Sounds like he is. But since he didn't reply to Choob's questions about the specifics, and says "liberty" trumps governmental mandates, it's hard to know.

    Again allow people freedom to use it how they desire. If they want to water their lawn and make up the savings with low flush toilets - good for them. If they don't mind their lawn going to crap but like to take 3 hour shows good for them. Its about liberty and the government NOT choosing economic winners and losers. Because guess what 'green' companies give money to politicians and oh wow their competitors get regulated out of business. Hmmmm...
    The Agricultural Industry practically writes every Farm Bill, and gets its federal subsidies, because they have more politicians in their pocket than any 'green' company does. Ditto for the Energy Industry. It's still dominated by petrochemical/fossil fuel conglomerates whose massive amounts of money and political clout are valued more than WATER, even though their processes (Fracking) or transport (pipelines) use and/or contaminate WATER.


    Lewk, do you really believe arid, desert, or swamp states became part of the US economy due to Freee Market Capitalism...without any intervention from a federal government in the first place?

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If drought becomes *bad enough* then yes flow from public water can be capped. Again allow people freedom to use it how they desire. If they want to water their lawn and make up the savings with low flush toilets - good for them. If they don't mind their lawn going to crap but like to take 3 hour shows good for them. Its about liberty and the government NOT choosing economic winners and losers. Because guess what 'green' companies give money to politicians and oh wow their competitors get regulated out of business. Hmmmm...
    This isn't about choosing economic winners and losers. There isn't company A that makes low flow shower heads and company B that makes only high flows. This is a design standard, like a safety standard, that all companies have to follow. By using this means to conserve water everyone gets to flush their toilet as much as they want and take as long a shower as they want. The alternative, installing shut-off water meters in every home and business, would cost a comparatively large amount for everyone and would inevitably result in many people unable to shower, flush their toilet or drink water at the end of the month and businesses like restaurants unable to wash dishes or clean their bathrooms because their water ran out. It's not the better option.
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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    This isn't about choosing economic winners and losers. There isn't company A that makes low flow shower heads and company B that makes only high flows. This is a design standard, like a safety standard, that all companies have to follow. By using this means to conserve water everyone gets to flush their toilet as much as they want and take as long a shower as they want. The alternative, installing shut-off water meters in every home and business, would cost a comparatively large amount for everyone and would inevitably result in many people unable to shower, flush their toilet or drink water at the end of the month and businesses like restaurants unable to wash dishes or clean their bathrooms because their water ran out. It's not the better option.
    I guess I can't say for certain how it works across the country, but at least where I live you have a meter reader come by monthly to check usage. I don't think it would add too much additional cost to also have them shutoff water to gross offenders at the same time. A better question is how this would affect apartments and duplexes that often share a single meter and don't measure usage with a high level of granularity.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 04-14-2015 at 04:13 PM.

  29. #29
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I guess I can't say for certain how it works across the country, but at least where I live you have a meter reader come by monthly to check usage. I don't think it would add too much additional cost be to have them also shutoff water to gross offenders at the same time. A better question is how this would affect apartments and duplexes that often share a single meter and don't measure usage that granularly.
    Shouldn't be too hard to install additional meters, something they should do anyway - after all, if when the price for water goes up, I really don't want to pay for my water-wasting neighbours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    [...] that you can grow rice in a place like California, apparently competitively[...]
    What kind of absolute and utter moron made this possible?
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  30. #30
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Shouldn't be too hard to install additional meters, something they should do anyway - after all, if when the price for water goes up, I really don't want to pay for my water-wasting neighbours.
    Then you get all kind of niceties about water use in shared areas etc., for example we don't have a personal energy and water bill because we share kitchen, washing machine, and heating, so it's impossible to individualise those bills, they are just split.


    What kind of absolute and utter moron made this possible?
    Probably historic from times when water shortage was less of an issue. I've been trying to read up on it but it's pretty complex from what I can tell. Over here, farmers generally are okay with just the rainfall plus groundwater sucked up by capillary forces, only in dry periods they irrigate. Price for that in my water authority district is €0,19/m3 for water they extract from the ground (compare to the prices California farmers are complaining about, which is around $1/m3 - though of course that's different from the fees for extracting ground water yourself, which was free in California until recently). But it depends per district, especially since some are polders where keeping the water levels and flushing water to keep the quality right can be complex.

    However, I can't really tell whether those prices are the complete picture for California - there's talk about water allocations, seniority in rights,* etc., which makes me wonder whether these are the prices a farmer pays, or if this is what he pays for buying more than his allocated water, by purchasing excess from others (which is what I am inclined to think, why else would farmers be selling their share of water)? And what the rules are for extracting water yourself (and whether that's even an option there). I'm also assuming they don't use tap quality water for irrigation, because otherwise they pay maximum 1/10th of the water price we have here (in a river delta, not a desert).

    *over here, in cases of drought, farmers are not high in the priority list for who gets water - first tier is safety (think stability of water defenses), ground levels (drying out a polder or mire/peat areas makes the area 'sink'), and nature (for permanent effects), then potable water and energy supply, followed by capital intensive crops and process water, and only then other farms, shipping, industry, etc.


    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-drought-grows
    In the northern Sacramento Valley, 50 rice farmers this year agreed to forfeit part of their crop and sell their water at double the usual price to drought-stricken peers to the south.For the rice farmers who give up some of their water, “the price comes down to what they would get for their rice, so the profits are about the same,” Trimble said.

    ...

    The inflated amounts paid for water reflects “the number of people who don’t have access to underground water, who’ve planted very valuable perennial crops,” said Richard Howitt, one of the authors of the report.
    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...-water-wasters
    You might expect water-scarce parts of the country to pay higher rates. But that's not usually the case. As you can see in this chart, water-use rates have little connection to geographic region, and even less connection to drought. Los Angeles and San Diego are western cities with more expensive rates, while Denver, El Paso, Phoenix, and Las Vegas are relatively inexpensive, according to Brookings:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/bu...-low.html?_r=0
    The price of water going into Americans’ homes often does not even cover the cost of delivering it, let alone the depreciation of utilities’ infrastructure or their R&D. It certainly doesn’t account for other costs imposed by water use — on, say, fisheries or the environment — caused by taking water out of rivers or lakes.Consumers have little incentive to conserve. Despite California’s distress, about half of the homes in the capital, Sacramento, still don’t have water meters, paying a flat fee no matter how much water they consume.
    Some utilities do worse: charging decreasing rates the more water is consumed. Utilities, of course, have little incentive to discourage consumption: The more they did that the more their revenues would decline.

    ...


    Their water rights are primarily subject to state law. In the West, they have been allocated by a method that closely resembles “first come first served.” The first farm that drew water had a right to whatever it needed pretty much forever. Junior users — who arrived later — had to stand in line.
    Farmers pay if the government brings the water to the farm, say via an aqueduct from the Colorado River. But the fees are minimal. Farmers in California’s Imperial Irrigation District pay $20 per acre-foot, less than a tenth of what it can cost in San Diego. And the government has often subsidized farmers via things like interest-free loans to cover upfront investments. (An acre-foot is the amount it takes to cover one acre of land a foot deep in water.)
    This kind of arrangement helps explain why about half the 60 million acres of irrigated land in the United States use flood irrigation, just flooding the fields with water, which is about as wasteful a method as there is. It also helps explain why underground water reserves declined by 53 million acre-feet between 2003 and 2014, about twice the volume of Lake Mead.


    This is hardly the only obstacle to conservation. A farm that doesn’t use its full allotment of water risks forfeiting it for not putting it to “beneficial use.” And any water saved automatically flows to other farmers with junior rights.
    Farmers in many states are theoretically allowed to lease unused water. But the many holders of junior rights can block them. And they are legion:California has granted rights to five times its average annual flow of surface water.
    These restrictions have perverse consequences. San Diego, for instance, isbuilding the nation’s biggest desalination plant to produce fresh water at a cost of about $2,000 per acre-foot. But alfalfa growers in Southern California last year used hundreds of billions of gallons growing alfalfa that might fetch at best $340 a ton, or $920 per acre-foot of water.
    http://articles.latimes.com/2014/mar...arket-20140328
    But nearly half of California farms still use flood irrigation, when using sprinklers or drip systems could save nearly as much water every year as the 9 million acre-feet all 38 million of us use.

    ...

    The cost to our environment is steep. California's salmon and steelhead populations are either extinct, endangered or in decline. The Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta, switching yard for most of the state's water supplies, is close to ecological collapse because too much water is pumped out of it or is diverted before it gets there.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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