Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 36

Thread: Faggots, in your West Point? It's more likely than you think! Here's an interview

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Faggots, in your West Point? It's more likely than you think! Here's an interview

    At West Point, Hidden Gay Cadets Put in Spotlight

    WEST POINT, N.Y. — Code words, secret societies, covert meetings, fake identities: these are tools that a certain set of cadets learn here at the United States Military Academy at West Point.

    These cadets are not spies or moles. They are gay, and they exist largely in the shadows of this granite institution known for producing presidents and generals, where staying closeted is essential to avoid discharge under the military’s “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.

    “The most important thing I’ve learned here is how to be a good actor,” said one gay male cadet, who grew up in Philadelphia and is in his fourth year at the academy.

    The resignation this month of Katherine Miller, a top cadet who blogged anonymously about her lesbianism, has turned a spotlight on the hidden gay culture here and revived debate on campus about “don’t ask, don’t tell,” at a time when Washington is also focused on the issue.

    Ms. Miller, who wrote under the name “Private Second Class Citizen” about enduring gay slurs and faking a heterosexual dating history, is transferring to Yale University this fall and has become something of a media celebrity, appearing on “The Rachel Maddow Show” on MSNBC and on ABC News.

    Interviews with three gay cadets, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because revealing their identities could result in expulsion, as well as conversations with Ms. Miller and several gay alumni, painted a portrait of a vibrant, if tiny, gay underground at West Point. The hiding begins on Day 1: new cadets must sign a document acknowledging that revealing one’s homosexuality can lead to discharge, as can demonstrating “a propensity to engage in homosexual acts.”

    In 1996, three female cadets resigned after West Point officials found a diary belonging to one of them that revealed their sexual orientation. In 2002, the academy discharged a cadet after his profile was discovered on a gay Web site. Ms. Miller, whose blog began in April but apparently eluded academy officials, said she quit voluntarily by submitting a letter revealing her lesbianism.

    Asked about gay culture at West Point, Lt. Col. Brian Tribus, the academy’s director of public affairs, issued a statement saying that the school “will continue to apply the law as it is obligated to do,” but also noting that cadets must take military ethics classes that include “topics about unconditional positive respect for others.”

    For gay cadets, repressing their sexuality is just one part of adapting to West Point, where life is regimented and lived mostly in uniform. Romance of any kind can be difficult: the 4,400 cadets, who live in one complex of large barracks and eat together at huge weekday breakfasts and lunches in Washington Hall, are allowed to date but not to kiss or hold hands while in uniform. “It’s like living in a snow globe,” said one lesbian cadet, who is in her third year.

    But she and others said the lack of social freedom only primed the active social grapevine at the academy. They said that they knew at least 20 lesbian cadets (West Point is about 15 percent female), and that when a friend recently drew a diagram showing who had had relationships with whom, it revealed a tight web.

    Trying to divine other lesbians takes “really finely tuned gaydar,” said another lesbian cadet, who is a senior, or “firstie.” There are code words and test phrases: “Are you family?” refers to inclusion in the lesbian sisterhood. Or cadets might throw out references to the television show “The L Word” to gauge the response.

    An encounter during military maneuvers might result in flirtatious Facebook messaging back in the barracks. Those who earn weekend passes might make late-night runs to gay bars in Manhattan, about 50 miles away, or to gay parties on nearby college campuses, often with students they met through intercollegiate sports.

    The two lesbian cadets described all this at 9 o’clock one night last week at Jefferson Library, amid dozens of classmates dressed in immaculately pressed gray uniforms, sitting up straight and studying textbooks. Both said they had been openly gay in high school but found gay socializing nearly impossible during the strict first year at West Point, then began to confide in a tight group of loyal friends as liberties increased.

    “Anyone you meet here,” the senior female cadet said, “you have to assess their personality very closely, and see if you can trust them.”

    She said she wore baggy clothing when going to a gay club in the city, but tighter garments — to “dress straight,” as she put it — when heading to the Firstie Club on campus. She and others also mask their orientation by using nonchalant greetings with other lesbians and feigning attraction for men. And, inevitably, they stay silent amid slurs and slights.

    “I had a roommate who told me, ‘Whenever I see two gay people walking down the street, it makes me want to throw up,’ ” the senior female cadet said. “I was like, ‘Little do you know, I’m gay.’ ”

    Even fending off advances from male cadets can create problems. “You can’t say, ‘Sorry guys, I’m gay,’ ” the senior said. “And if I say, ‘I have a boyfriend,’ I’m breaking the honor code.” Breaching the Cadet Honor Code — “a cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do” — can result in serious discipline.

    The male cadet in his fourth year said he had had sexual relationships with several other men at the academy. Last year, he fell for a guy at a gay bar in Manhattan who, to the surprise of both of them, turned out to be a classmate.

    Back on campus, they enjoyed and suffered through a seven-month relationship on the “down low,” he said. They might share a meal at Grant Hall, but if they passed each other in company, they would simply nod hello or offer a casual back-slap. They did not attend the year-end formal dance together.

    “I went alone and told the other guys my girlfriend from home had flight delays,” said the senior, who goes nightly to a deserted parking lot to make personal phone calls, for fear of tipping off his straight roommates.

    Ms. Miller, 20, a sociology major from Findlay, Ohio, said she decided to leave West Point after two years because she grew tired of hiding.

    “It was a whirlpool of lies — I was violating the honor code every time I socialized,” she said in an interview.

    Ms. Miller, who ranked 17th in her West Point class, wrote in her Aug. 9 resignation letter: “I have lied to my classmates and compromised my integrity and my identity by adhering to existing military policy. I am unwilling to suppress an entire portion of my identity any longer.”

    Becky Kanis, a 1991 West Point graduate and chairwoman of the group Knights Out, which offers guidance to gay West Point cadets, said Ms. Miller’s resignation provided a morale boost to gay cadets by alerting the public to the “shared adversity” they endured in having to mask their sexual orientation.

    Ms. Kanis, a former Army captain who now lives in Los Angeles and works with a social services organization, Common Ground, said that her own sexual orientation was investigated twice during her years at West Point — friends interrogated, lockbox searched — and that gay cadets often spoke in code, using genderless pronouns, for example, when talking about significant others. “You have to operate in a ‘shush network,’ ” she said.

    But it all “came in handy,” Ms. Kanis said, when she began doing intelligence work in the Army. “I was used to having a cover for my personal life,” she said. “Living closeted is excellent training for intelligence jobs. You’re always fine-tuning who you can talk to about what.”
    What I find most striking is that these aspiring future leaders have such strong moral convictions that being in the closet is no longer an option; they ascribe to an honour code so much that lying about their sexuality makes them so uncomfortable that they quit. Nifty way of weeding out the fags from a prestigious institute, sure, but is it really in the best interests of the nation?

    Spoiler:
    No.


    So, don't ask, don't tell, dumb, or dumbest?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #2
    Ms. Miller, who wrote under the name “Private Second Class Citizen” about enduring gay slurs and faking a heterosexual dating history, is transferring to Yale University this fall and has become something of a media celebrity, appearing on “The Rachel Maddow Show” on MSNBC and on ABC News.
    I saw that interview. Yale is getting a top-notch student.

    Even fending off advances from male cadets can create problems. “You can’t say, ‘Sorry guys, I’m gay,’ ” the senior said. “And if I say, ‘I have a boyfriend,’ I’m breaking the honor code.” Breaching the Cadet Honor Code — “a cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do” — can result in serious discipline.

  3. #3
    Even fending off advances from male cadets can create problems. “You can’t say, ‘Sorry guys, I’m gay,’ ” the senior said. “And if I say, ‘I have a boyfriend,’ I’m breaking the honor code.” Breaching the Cadet Honor Code — “a cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do” — can result in serious discipline.
    Right, because it's so hard to just say nothing.. LiberULZ.

  4. #4
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Right, because it's so hard to just say nothing.. LiberULZ.
    Are you kidding me?

    The honor code and the Don't Ask, Don't Tell rule are in conflict with each other in actual practice.

    Straight Cadet: So, got a girl back home?

    Gay Cadet: (If I say yes, then I'm lying, if I say no, then other questions will follow, eventually leading to a lie or if I tell the truth then I get kicked out)
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Are you kidding me?

    The honor code and the Don't Ask, Don't Tell rule are in conflict with each other in actual practice.

    Straight Cadet: So, got a girl back home?

    Gay Cadet: (If I say yes, then I'm lying, if I say no, then other questions will follow, eventually leading to a lie or if I tell the truth then I get kicked out)
    It's simple.... don't engage the flirting then...ie: don't talk. =\
    No one seems to ask me if I am straight or not when I say I don't have a girlfriend... LULZ.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Right, because it's so hard to just say nothing.. LiberULZ.
    When they're hitting on you? Yeah, it is. Being female at one of the military academies is already tough and the possibility of being labeled a homosexual is enough of a problem for the straight cadets, who can actually refute it. When you can't refute it, you have to make certain the accusations never come in the first place. Non-participation isn't going to cut it.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  7. #7
    Also...

    If a guy that age is asking a girl out and she says nothing at all, he will think she is playing hard to get and continue. "No thanks, I'm not interested" is a better response, but it doesn't keep it from coming up repeatedly.

    It gets even more complicated when it's just friends (same or mixed gender) shooting the shit about relationships/celebrity crushes.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  8. #8
    My immediate response is to call agamemnus an idiot, but I'm also tempted to ask if he ever made it to high school, or college (or native equivalent).

    Or did I miss a sarcasm transition?

  9. #9
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    My immediate response is to call agamemnus an idiot, but I'm also tempted to ask if he ever made it to high school, or college (or native equivalent).

    Or did I miss a sarcasm transition?
    See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    It's simple.... don't engage the flirting then...ie: don't talk. =\
    No one seems to ask me if I am straight or not when I say I don't have a girlfriend... LULZ.
    Because they probably know that you ain't get laid either way. LULZ.

    And, actually, they're only asking to make sure you don't breed. LULZ.

    Finally, you should follow your own advice: don't talk. Might up your chances with women. Then again, considering what I said before: Talk. Often and loudly. Please. LULZ.

    Spoiler:
    Please Dread, don't kill me
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  10. #10
    Going a bit off-topic now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Then again, considering what I said before: Talk. Often and loudly. Please. LULZ.
    Interesting logical conundrum. Do we or do we not want little agas running around the CC?... on the one hand, we'd have more people to mock, but on the other hand, it's more work.

    Edit...
    Anyway, my original point is that saying that this sort of thing qualifies for serious political discussion is similar to saying that kath's.. thoughts.. qualify for serious argument. It just seems like fluff to me. I am intrigued by the thinking of people for whom this is serious... I would like to see some logical/debate points brought up by such people if they exist.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Anyway, my original point is that saying that this sort of thing qualifies for serious political discussion is similar to saying that kath's.. thoughts.. qualify for serious argument. It just seems like fluff to me. I am intrigued by the thinking of people for whom this is serious... I would like to see some logical/debate points brought up by such people if they exist.
    What, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, the official stance that homosexuality is not acceptable in military service?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Well, look at that William Hague affair in the UK. People really get silly if the idea comes up that they might be gay. I'm not saying Hague is gay, but really, he thinks that the fact they are trying to make a baby (and it's implication of he and his wife fucking - pardonez le mot) is really any evidence at all to the contrary? If I'd have to give a nickel to every gay person doing exactly that while dreaming of hot steamy nights with 'good friends' of the same gender I'd be a poor man.
    Congratulations America

  13. #13
    Actually, more generally.

    Should half-drunk discussion over who has what girlfriends (or boyfriends) and ... what they do with them... be appropriate in the military?

  14. #14
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Actually, more generally.

    Should half-drunk discussion over who has what girlfriends (or boyfriends) and ... what they do with them... be appropriate in the military?
    ???

    Ummmm...what else do you expect 18 to 22 yr olds to talk about? They are cadets, not soldiers (yet).

    You expect the Commandant to issue an order to these kids to not talk about their personal lives?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Actually, more generally.

    Should half-drunk discussion over who has what girlfriends (or boyfriends) and ... what they do with them... be appropriate in the military?
    Yeah because people in their late teens and early twenties never talk about their love-life with their school mates. Why should they change that all of a sudden if they are admitted to a military academy.
    Congratulations America

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Yeah because people in their late teens and early twenties never talk about their love-life with their school mates. Why should they change that all of a sudden if they are admitted to a military academy.
    Probably... because it's a military academy, not a booze guzzling state "university"? You have to be straight and narrow; disciplined. You are, after all, theoretically, not training to chat with people about their sexual deeds.. you are training to kill people...

    -----------

    I think the idea of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is that saying "Hi, I'm gay" distracts soldiers; soldiers who have been already purposely segregated into male and female groups because otherwise they will ... distract... themselves with non-military-type-activities (as seen on Battlestar Galactica and as you all have already mentioned... thanks for falling into my trap!).

    So, it's a logistical issue, really. Are you going to separate people into 4 or more categories now, or do away with the policy and pretend that people are not going to be distracted by their "gay" bunkmate?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Probably... because it's a military academy? You have to be straight and narrow; disciplined. You are, after all, theoretically, training to kill people...
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Probably... because it's a military academy, not a booze guzzling state "university"? You have to be straight and narrow; disciplined. You are, after all, theoretically, not training to chat with people about their sexual deeds.. you are training to kill people...

    -----------

    I think the idea of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is that saying "Hi, I'm gay" distracts soldiers; soldiers who have been already purposely segregated into male and female groups because otherwise they will ... distract... themselves with non-military-type-activities (as seen on Battlestar Galactica and as you all have already mentioned... thanks for falling into my trap!).

    So, it's a logistical issue, really. Are you going to separate people into 4 or more categories now, or do away with the policy and pretend that people are not going to be distracted by their "gay" bunkmate?
    US combat troops aren't segregated by gender. If they are trained to kill, and are disciplined, they shouldn't be distracted by a female, a gay man, or a marching band coming through town.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    US combat troops aren't segregated by gender.
    I don't think women can serve in active combat roles on the ground in the US military (though, effectively, that's not the case... escorting a truck convoy of supplies is not an active combat role but it can become one in a moment), and I don't think they sleep in the same bunker as men...


    If they are trained to kill, and are disciplined, they shouldn't be distracted by a female, a gay man, or a marching band coming through town.
    I agree, but I think* it seems that only perhaps the most elite soldiers will not be distracted. It only takes a split-second to get killed if you are in distracted in a situation when there are enemy units nearby; looking/thinking at someone who you might be attracted to (or who you think is attracted to you) will take that split-second away.



    * The others who opined in this thread seem to think in this general direction, too.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Should half-drunk discussion over who has what girlfriends (or boyfriends) and ... what they do with them... be appropriate in the military?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  21. #21
    It's not just the younglings who do it - a certain amount of bragging is expected for soldiers/sailors of any age.

    But for West Point cadets there is absolutely no way to stop it; it's the same as any other 18-22 year olds - growing up time.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  22. #22
    I added some more after that paragraph and in the paragraph.. how easily you all fall into my trap.

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    I don't think anybody stepped in any trap; the US military to my knowledge consists of normal human beings that will actually behave like normal human beings.You are reasoning under the fallacy that all human behaviour should be logical. Get off the Star Trek bandwaggon buddy.
    Congratulations America

  24. #24
    I don't expect the military to be like Star Trek.

    Nor do I expect it to be like Battlestar Galactica.

    How "normal human beings" act is a product of their environment and life experiences, not just their natural instincts.

    It should be reasonable to provide certain measures that encourage or discourage certain behavior in the military that is not conducive to the expectations that we have of soldiers.

    I dare you to get any more generic than that!

  25. #25
    So agamemnus wants college kids to learn, drill, and live together. But not talk, network, and form friendships?

    I give up, he is an idiot.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    I give up, he is an idiot.
    This was made obvious back in '07 or so, yet people persist in talking at it, and I cannot fathom why!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    This was made obvious back in '07 or so, yet people persist in talking at it, and I cannot fathom why!
    It's like watching a train wreck. Horrible, yet you just can't look away.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    So agamemnus wants college kids to learn, drill, and live together. But not talk, network, and form friendships?

    I give up, he is (edited) a charming individual.
    That's not what I said... you are putting words in my mouth.
    Last edited by agamemnus; 09-04-2010 at 05:17 PM.

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    That's not what I said... you are putting words in my mouth.
    It is actually what you said. The sad thing is that you don't realise it.
    Congratulations America

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It is actually what you said. The sad thing is that you don't realise it.
    No, it's his (and yours) wildly inaccurate mis-characterization of what I said. Great way to win an argument when you don't have any real points, I must say. Unless you or Ominous (or anyone else) have any further points, I'm done on this one.

    I will just report anyone who just wants to spew insults at me, and I will not respond to them in my usual nonchalant insult-ignoring civil manner, any more. This is supposed to be a "debate and discussion" forum, not an insult-throwing monkey-shit fest, or a place for people to act out their kindergarten playground years!
    Last edited by agamemnus; 09-05-2010 at 11:46 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •