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  1. #1

    Default Foreclosuregate

    Does one need much more to assert that so much of the banking/debt boom was ridden by amateurs who understood spreadsheets, but not how to actually run a business?

    This is why I tell my [few] friends who made $150-200k/year out of college in finance to give up and go look for other professions. They were surfing on a wave and it's not going to come back anytime soon.

    October 13, 2010
    Bankers Ignored Signs of Trouble on Foreclosures
    By ERIC DASH and NELSON D. SCHWARTZ
    At JPMorgan Chase & Company, they were derided as “Burger King kids” — walk-in hires who were so inexperienced they barely knew what a mortgage was.

    At Citigroup and GMAC, dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s on home foreclosures was outsourced to frazzled workers who sometimes tossed the paperwork into the garbage.

    And at Litton Loan Servicing, an arm of Goldman Sachs, employees processed foreclosure documents so quickly that they barely had time to see what they were signing.

    “I don’t know the ins and outs of the loan,” a Litton employee said in a deposition last year. “I’m not a loan officer.”

    As the furor grows over lenders’ efforts to sidestep legal rules in their zeal to reclaim homes from delinquent borrowers, these and other banks insist that they have been overwhelmed by the housing collapse.

    But interviews with bank employees, executives and federal regulators suggest that this mess was years in the making and came as little surprise to industry insiders and government officials. The issue gained new urgency on Wednesday, when all 50 state attorneys general announced that they would investigate foreclosure practices. That news came on the same day that JPMorgan Chase acknowledged that it had not used the nation’s largest electronic mortgage tracking system, MERS, in foreclosures, since 2008.

    That system has been faulted for losing documents and other sloppy practices.

    The root of today’s problems goes back to the boom years, when home prices were soaring and banks pursued profit while paying less attention to the business of mortgage servicing, or collecting and processing monthly payments from homeowners.

    Banks spent billions of dollars in the good times to build vast mortgage machines that made new loans, bundled them into securities and sold those investments worldwide. Lowly servicing became an afterthought. Even after the housing bubble began to burst, many of these operations languished with inadequate staffing and outmoded technology, despite warnings from regulators.

    When borrowers began to default in droves, banks found themselves in a never-ending game of catch-up, unable to devote enough manpower to modify, or ease the terms of, loans to millions of customers on the verge of losing their homes. Now banks are ill-equipped to deal the foreclosure process.

    “We waited and waited and waited for wide-scale loan modifications,” said Sheila C. Bair, the chairwoman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, one of the first government officials to call on the industry to take action. “They never owned up to all the problems leading to the mortgage crisis. They have always downplayed it.”

    In recent weeks, revelations that mortgage servicers failed to accurately document the seizure and sale of tens of thousands of homes have caused a public uproar and prompted lenders like Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase and GMAC Mortgage to halt foreclosures in many states.

    Even before the political outcry, many of the banks shifted employees into their mortgage servicing units and beefed up hiring. Wells Fargo, for instance, has nearly doubled the number of workers in its mortgage modification unit over the last year, to about 17,000, while Citigroup added some 2,000 employees since 2007, bringing the total to 5,000.

    “We believe we responded appropriately to staff up to meet the increased volume,” said Mark Rodgers, a spokesman for Citigroup.

    Some industry executives add that they’re committed to helping homeowners but concede they were slow to ramp up. “In hindsight, we were all slow to jump on the issue,” said Michael J. Heid, co-president of at Wells Fargo Home Mortgage. “When you think about what it costs to add 10,000 people, that is a substantial investment in time and money along with the computers, training and system changes involved.”

    Other officials say as foreclosures were beginning to spike as early as 2007, no one could have imagined how rapidly they would reach their current level. About 11.5 percent of borrowers are in default today, up from 5.7 percent from two years earlier.

    “The systems were not ever that great to begin with, but you didn’t have that much strain on them,” said Jim Miller, who previously oversaw the mortgage servicing units for troubled borrowers at Citigroup, Chase and Capitol One. “I don’t think anybody anticipated this thing getting as bad as it did.”

    Almost overnight, what had been a factorylike business that relied on workers with high school educations to process monthly payments needed to come up with a custom-made operation that could solve the problems of individual homeowners. Gregory Hebner, the president of the MOS Group, a California loan modification company that works closely with service companies, likened it to transforming McDonald’s into a gourmet eatery. “You are already in chase mode, and you never catch up,” he said.

    To make matters worse, the banks had few financial incentives to invest in their servicing operations, several former executives said. A mortgage generates an annual fee equal to only about 0.25 percent of the loan’s total value, or about $500 a year on a typical $200,000 mortgage. That revenue evaporates once a loan becomes delinquent, while the cost of a foreclosure can easily reach $2,500 and devour the meager profits generated from handling healthy loans.

    “Investment in people, training, and technology — all that costs them a lot of money, and they have no incentive to staff up,” said Taj Bindra, who oversaw Washington Mutual’s large mortgage servicing unit from 2004 to 2006.

    And even when banks did begin hiring to deal with the avalanche of defaults, they often turned to workers with minimal qualifications or work experience, employees a former JPMorgan executive characterized as the “Burger King kids.” In many cases, the banks outsourced their foreclosure operations to law firms like that of David J. Stern, of Florida, which served clients like Citigroup, GMAC and others. Mr. Stern hired outsourcing firms in Guam and the Philippines to help.

    The result was chaos, said Tammie Lou Kapusta, a former employee of Mr. Stern’s who was deposed by the Florida attorney general’s office last month. “The girls would come out on the floor not knowing what they were doing,” she said. “Mortgages would get placed in different files. They would get thrown out. There was just no real organization when it came to the original documents.”

    Citigroup and GMAC say they are no longer giving any new work to Mr. Stern’s firm.

    In some cases, even steps that were supposed to ease the situation, like the federal program aimed at helping homeowners modify their mortgages to reduce what they owed, had actually contributed to the mess. Loan servicing companies complain that bureaucratic requirements are constantly changed by Washington, forcing them to overhaul an already byzantine process that involves nearly 250 steps.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/15/wo.../15greece.html

  2. #2
    This has pretty much stopped my house shopping. Everything that was shortsale was immediately delisted when its bank "discovered" they were hiring robosigners. Now that the AGs from all 50 states want in on this (causing even more banks to halt foreclosures), its going to cause a huge collapse in prices when the market is flooded again with the backlog of houses once the banks get the paperwork in order.

    Honestly not surprised it happened, there were way to many cases of people getting their homes foreclosed on when they didn't have a mortgage, were update on their mortgage, or had a mortgage with a different bank.

    I was very pleased that Obama did not sign the recent Notary Bill that was rushed through the house and senate without a vote record. It would have allowed all the problems that have built up to this.

    EDIT:
    Don't be lame, stop with the -gate thing.

  3. #3
    Hey, blame that one in Nixon.

    I think I support some kind of "statute of limitations" on this —*if a debt servicer that forecloses can't provide hard documentation of mortgage ownership within a certain [reasonable] amount of time, a new title should be drawn up in the name of the resident of the house (as long as they can prove they've been servicing the debt for more than xx months).

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I think I support some kind of "statute of limitations" on this —*if a debt servicer that forecloses can't provide hard documentation of mortgage ownership within a certain [reasonable] amount of time, a new title should be drawn up in the name of the resident of the house (as long as they can prove they've been servicing the debt for more than xx months).
    This would cause so many problems... All but one of the properties I've looked at have been empty investor properties, what you're suggesting would basically give these people free money, and it would cause an artificial value on the land because the investor could hold onto the land for far longer than what we are already seeing. Allowing them to sell at the price they set, and not the price that the market says its worth.

    I think the bank's line that this is the mortgage owners' fault is bullshit. Yet these mortgage owners were paying someone, and I can only assume that who ever they were paying would have been able to provide the title in 15/30/40 years.

    However I don't think the banks should even be allowed to contact the home owners about late payment until after they have their own paperwork in order.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Bottom line, do financiers have a fiduciary duty regardless of what teh evil gummint subsidizes or regulates, or not?
    You're just using buzzwords again. What does this question even really mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I wonder if Lewk still think he can trust his friendly neighbourhood bank with his mortgage payments. If I were an American with a mortgage on my home I'd withhold payment from now on and notify the recipient of payments that I would only re-start payments if they would prove to me they were holding the lien or were entitled on the basis of a written agreement to collect the money.

    I'd send them a notarized registered letter too.
    It's an interesting thought. The government bought my mortgage a while ago, but left my bank JP Morgan Chase to service the debt. I don't think I could get a straight answer out of the government until it was time to sell; and even then I suspect they would have lost the documentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    This would cause so many problems... All but one of the properties I've looked at have been empty investor properties, what you're suggesting would basically give these people free money, and it would cause an artificial value on the land because the investor could hold onto the land for far longer than what we are already seeing. Allowing them to sell at the price they set, and not the price that the market says its worth.

    I think the bank's line that this is the mortgage owners' fault is bullshit. Yet these mortgage owners were paying someone, and I can only assume that who ever they were paying would have been able to provide the title in 15/30/40 years.

    However I don't think the banks should even be allowed to contact the home owners about late payment until after they have their own paperwork in order.
    How would it cause an "artificial value" on anything? Simply put, if the bank is going to foreclose they need to provide hard documentation that they hold the title within a certain period of time or risk having their right to the home "foreclosed" on.

    A more harsh version of what you're proposing in your last graph.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    How would it cause an "artificial value" on anything? Simply put, if the bank is going to foreclose they need to provide hard documentation that they hold the title within a certain period of time or risk having their right to the home "foreclosed" on.

    A more harsh version of what you're proposing in your last graph.
    Because its giving these investors literally free properties to do with what they wish. They buy a $200,000 house, walk away with it for free, and can hold onto it until they sell for the profit they originally intended out of it. Paying a few thousand in property taxes a few years to hold onto a property until they can sell it fro X% of what they paid for it? Thats not helping anyone that needs help. We already have a problem of banks holding onto properties while they wait for the market to turn around.
    I'm suggesting that the bank shouldn't be allowed to act on past due amounts without the correct paper trail, you're suggesting a bank should hand over the property without strings. Huge difference.

  7. #7
    Wait a damn minute here.

    Dread, weren't you part of the "bankers and traders didn't do anything wrong" camp, when home loans and MBSs and synthetic CDOs exploded?

  8. #8
    All I said is that bankers aren't demons. I also said some made stupid loans, and that many were riding a debt wave fueled by cheap credit. And I said they were encouraged and subsidized to make stupid loans by the government. And people were stupid enough to take loans they couldn't afford.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    All I said is that bankers aren't demons. I also said some made stupid loans, and that many were riding a debt wave fueled by cheap credit. And I said they were encouraged and subsidized to make stupid loans by the government. And people were stupid enough to take loans they couldn't afford.
    So you were fine on the upswing, but not so fine on the downside?

    Bottom line, do financiers have a fiduciary duty regardless of what teh evil gummint subsidizes or regulates, or not?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    All I said is that bankers aren't demons. I also said some made stupid loans, and that many were riding a debt wave fueled by cheap credit. And I said they were encouraged and subsidized to make stupid loans by the government. And people were stupid enough to take loans they couldn't afford.
    What do you mean by demon? Nobody's a demon. Even Stalin wasn't a demon. Sooooo?
    The Rules
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  11. #11
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    I wonder if Lewk still think he can trust his friendly neighbourhood bank with his mortgage payments. If I were an American with a mortgage on my home I'd withhold payment from now on and notify the recipient of payments that I would only re-start payments if they would prove to me they were holding the lien or were entitled on the basis of a written agreement to collect the money.

    I'd send them a notarized registered letter too.
    Congratulations America

  12. #12
    And I'm just using "buzz words". That's Dread's way of trying to shut down conversation, or lead it to where he wants to go......

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    And I'm just using "buzz words". That's Dread's way of trying to shut down conversation, or lead it to where he wants to go......
    You remember the old dread? The nice, compassionate one who cared about people more than money? Yeah, <sigh>, those were the days.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  14. #14
    This really deserves a criminal trial and jail time. $67.5 million is a drop in the bucket of the mess he helped create.

    Countrywide’s Former Chief in Settlement of Fraud Case
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You remember the old dread? The nice, compassionate one who cared about people more than money? Yeah, <sigh>, those were the days.
    I wish I could say I remembered an old Chaloobi that cared more about preventing his country from bankruptcy than he did about imposing his totalitarian views upon others, but I'd be lying.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I wish I could say I remembered an old Chaloobi that cared more about preventing his country from bankruptcy than he did about imposing his totalitarian views upon others, but I'd be lying.
    Where did the dog-whistles about champaign socialism go? Or did they just become even more ultra-frequency?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    What do you mean by demon? Nobody's a demon. Even Stalin wasn't a demon. Sooooo?
    Stalin was pretty demonic. If you want something more drawn out, I refuse to characterize the entire banking industry as criminal or unduly responsible for our economic condition. Doesn't mean I don't think many bankers are stupid and should feel the full wrath of bad business decisions, including possibly losing their right to foreclose because they've lost important documentation.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    And I'm just using "buzz words". That's Dread's way of trying to shut down conversation, or lead it to where he wants to go......
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You remember the old dread? The nice, compassionate one who cared about people more than money? Yeah, <sigh>, those were the days.
    GGT, when you start making those sentences at half past midnight with strings of acronyms and phrases like "fiduciary duty"...and asking questions that don't quite make sense, well it's sort of familiar. Please, what exactly were you asking?

    Chaloobi, I don't see how me wanting to make bankers pay for losing paperwork (and awarding homes to the debt servicers) really reeks of me caring about money more than people. Can you please explain that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Because its giving these investors literally free properties to do with what they wish. They buy a $200,000 house, walk away with it for free, and can hold onto it until they sell for the profit they originally intended out of it. Paying a few thousand in property taxes a few years to hold onto a property until they can sell it fro X% of what they paid for it? Thats not helping anyone that needs help. We already have a problem of banks holding onto properties while they wait for the market to turn around.
    I'm suggesting that the bank shouldn't be allowed to act on past due amounts without the correct paper trail, you're suggesting a bank should hand over the property without strings. Huge difference.
    First of all, it's about homeowners, not exclusively investors. And they aren't walking away from it for free —*they have a record of servicing the debt at some point, but are being foreclosed-upon by a bank that can't definitively prove it has ownership of the mortgage. If the bank can't prove ownership within a period of time, they can't draw out litigation. They simply lose. You couldn't really game that kind of system unless you picked a bank you knew would lose documents.

    It's also rather fair; if a bank can't minimally keep its paperwork in order, the burden shouldn't be on the person who has been living in the home and demonstrably paying the mortgage to get out. That basic principle is why so many banks have shut down their foreclosure operations. I want to take it a step further on the side of homeowners.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Chaloobi, I don't see how me wanting to make bankers pay for losing paperwork (and awarding homes to the debt servicers) really reeks of me caring about money more than people. Can you please explain that?
    I won't touch on your demon debate, but you know better than this. Or you should, at any rate.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    First of all, it's about homeowners, not exclusively investors. And they aren't walking away from it for free —*they have a record of servicing the debt at some point, but are being foreclosed-upon by a bank that can't definitively prove it has ownership of the mortgage. If the bank can't prove ownership within a period of time, they can't draw out litigation. They simply lose. You couldn't really game that kind of system unless you picked a bank you knew would lose documents.

    It's also rather fair; if a bank can't minimally keep its paperwork in order, the burden shouldn't be on the person who has been living in the home and demonstrably paying the mortgage to get out. That basic principle is why so many banks have shut down their foreclosure operations. I want to take it a step further on the side of homeowners.
    Well that is the scary part; how do you know your bank hasn't screwed up so badly that your reliance of them was foolish rather than prudent?

    I agree with you that the bankers who screwed up deserve to bleed; if they can't prove they hold the mortgage, then they shouldn't just lose the case. They should be made to pay for the suffering of the home-owners on whom they falsely forclosed.
    Congratulations America

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    t's about homeowners, not exclusively investors.
    You got a ratio to justify this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    If the bank can't prove ownership within a period of time, they can't draw out litigation. They simply lose.
    This is already the case, and has been for several months. Its step one for any homeowner thats behind and wants to draw the process out even longer. If the banks don't show ownership they can't evict the homeowners. The home owners don't get to a free house (or a house after only paying a year or 2 if you're still stuck on that).

    Instead of giving away houses, there needs to be compensation for those the banks harassed, especially since many times the banks have been caught going after homes they have no business with.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Stalin was pretty demonic. If you want something more drawn out, I refuse to characterize the entire banking industry as criminal or unduly responsible for our economic condition. Doesn't mean I don't think many bankers are stupid and should feel the full wrath of bad business decisions, including possibly losing their right to foreclose because they've lost important documentation.
    What's a demon? Something that is absolutely evil not just in action, but in intent. I don't think many bankers intended to risk collapsing the global economy to make a buck. Some savvy market watchers, knowing what was going on however did root for the collapse as they stood to make a pile of money. But that's something else and no I don't think they were demons either. Was Stalin demonic or was he paranoid, brutally callous, and too powerful? Do you think he cared about the Soviet Union?

    Chaloobi, I don't see how me wanting to make bankers pay for losing paperwork (and awarding homes to the debt servicers) really reeks of me caring about money more than people. Can you please explain that?
    What Nessus said. And I was mostly teasing. I'm sure you're still a pretty nice guy when you're not thinking in abstract policy terms. Anyone that sits down to pee so as not to embarrass his lady roommates is a, well, pretty standup guy.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I wish I could say I remembered an old Chaloobi that cared more about preventing his country from bankruptcy than he did about imposing his totalitarian views upon others, but I'd be lying.
    Did you really just say "totalitarian?"

    Ass.

  23. #23

  24. #24
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    Eh, many of those people who didn't pay couldn't pay because their lenders knowingly seduced them to take out loans they couldn't pay back. That non-payment wasn't really an issue for the banks as the prices went up. So, actually punishing the bank by letting these people have their houses would be quite appropriate.
    Congratulations America

  25. #25
    An alarming report on Bank of America, compiled by Branch Hill Capital, a San Francisco hedge fund, circulated widely on Wall Street Thursday. Branch Hill suggested that the bank, the nation’s largest, could be facing more than $70 billion in losses from mortgage securities that it may have to repurchase from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, as well as private investors.

    “We think this is a very important issue, and the liability will be substantial,” said Manal Mehta, a partner at Branch Hill. “There has been pervasive bad behavior throughout the system.” The fund is betting that Bank of America shares could decline because of the potential liability.

    Bank of America declined to comment Thursday. But the company’s chief executive, Brian T. Moynihan, said last month at an investor conference that adequate reserves had been taken to protect against any losses that could materialize if it was forced to repurchase mortgage securities. “This will be manageable over time, but it has cost us a lot of money so I’m not making light of it,” he said. “We’ll continue to manage it.”

    On Wednesday, JPMorgan said it added $1 billion to its reserves to cover faulty home loans that it was obligated to repurchase from Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and private insurers. It has set aside a total of $3 billion for potential repurchases.

    Even if the larger losses envisioned by Mr. Mehta do not materialize, the foreclosure issue remains a worry. In a report, Paul Miller, an analyst with FBR Capital Markets, forecast that the controversy would cost the banking industry $6 billion to $10 billion. He estimated that each month’s delay cost the banks $1,000 per home loan, so if there was a three-month delay on the roughly two million homes currently in foreclosure, that translated into a $6 billion hit.

    In addition to the losses directly caused by the delay, Mr. Miller foresees additional charges totaling $3 billion to $4 billion to cover lawsuits stemming from faulty foreclosure procedures.

    For now, bank executives are not making any predictions how long the foreclosure halt will last.

    “If you’re talking about three or four weeks it will be a blip in the housing market,” said Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, in a conference call Wednesday. “If it went on for a long period of time, it will have a lot of consequences, most of which will be adverse on everybody.”
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Mortga...dlbWVzcw--?x=0

    Followed by some interesting comments by readers. Like questioning PMI and title insurance company roles and liability in this mess....

  26. #26
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    Cool, the secure assets are coming home to roost
    Congratulations America

  27. #27
    I agree with you that the bankers who screwed up deserve to bleed; if they can't prove they hold the mortgage, then they shouldn't just lose the case. They should be made to pay for the suffering of the home-owners on whom they falsely forclosed.
    The homeowner isn't the victim. They didn't pay their note.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    You really should stop trying to label people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    We've gone over this before dread. There are threads you simply don't follow, and threads that after a point (usually when you're in a corner) you simply give up on following. Before you pull some bullshit move of "this isn't you" you really need to pay attention more.
    Um, yeah sir. The ego. . This is a familiar pattern for you too, sir. Anyway.

    I've already covered the problems that the freeze is going to cause, but you want to give people homes they can't afford, meaning thats fewer homes for the people who can afford them. Thats wrong on just about every level you can think of. You're inflating the prices of homes, and hurting the people that least deserve it, to get vengeance on bad banking paperwork.

    Its a problem, yes. But its also a problem they home owner walked into. The owner signed the papers to pay Bank X for property Y, so its not like the bank is trying to profit off of a property that someone else claims to be owning.

    No the bank shouldn't be allowed to skirt the law when it comes to evictions, but the home owners walked into these homes knowing they owed a mortgage, and who to pay that mortgage towards.
    Comrade, beyond your stunning defense structureless free markets, we're dipping into contract law here. And the core principles of contract law are somewhat emphatic on this: when someone can't prove the terms of a contract, they may be unable to enforce the contract or settle for less than what they (the banks) believe the contract is worth. And that final number could be zero. This is why people who are savvy always ask debt collectors to prove that a contracted debt actually exists. It's also why creditors have the burden of proof on debitors.

    Separately, I think there's a bit of moral hazard in allowing the banks to effectively be "bailed out" on this. At this point, we don't know how bad this is. But what does it say if an entire industry screws up the paperwork, can't prove actual ownership but still gets the revenue stream at 100 cents on the dollar?

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    This is a familiar pattern for you too, sir.
    Awesome tit for tat mod justification

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    we're dipping into contract law here. And the core principles of contract law are somewhat emphatic on this: when someone can't prove the terms of a contract, they may be unable to enforce the contract or settle for less than what they (the banks) believe the contract is worth. And that final number could be zero. This is why people who are savvy always ask debt collectors to prove that a contracted debt actually exists. It's also why creditors have the burden of proof on debitors.
    Now you're repeating me This still however doesn't doesn't justify giving homes away for free. It may mean a debt may not be collected, or enforced, and thats means no envictions. That doesn't mean free land. You don't give party A something because they've made a minuscule payment to party B, who may or may not be able to prove current ownership in a certain time span. What happens when Party C comes in and its discovered they own the property, but were never notified of any proceedings?

    Separately, I think there's a bit of moral hazard in allowing the banks to effectively be "bailed out" on this. At this point, we don't know how bad this is. But what does it say if an entire industry screws up the paperwork, can't prove actual ownership but still gets the revenue stream at 100 cents on the dollar?
    As I've already said, again, if the titles come back after 15/30/40 years, if the mortgage was paid properly, then this wouldn't be a show stopping problem. Something that needs corrected, perhaps fined, sure. I'm not aware of any of the banks actually fully losing the paper trail on a house. Even the article stats its a volume problem at this point, and the problem was because of nonpayment.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 10-17-2010 at 04:19 PM.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Awesome tit for tat mod justification

    Now you're repeating me This still however doesn't doesn't justify giving homes away for free. It may mean a debt may not be collected, or enforced, and thats means no envictions. That doesn't mean free land. You don't give party A something because they've made a minuscule payment to party B, who may or may not be able to prove current ownership in a certain time span. What happens when Party C comes in and its discovered they own the property, but were never notified of any proceedings?


    As I've already said, again, if the titles come back after 15/30/40 years, if the mortgage was paid properly, then this wouldn't be a show stopping problem. Something that needs corrected, perhaps fined, sure. I'm not aware of any of the banks actually fully losing the paper trail on a house. Even the article stats its a volume problem at this point, and the problem was because of nonpayment.
    No mod hats were donned.

    I don't see how you can say it's fair that the debt is not repaid (which is fine), but the home is given away for free (which is not fine). If the mortgage is declared invalid due to lack of proof that it exists, well then yes, the logical recourse is that the home is no longer owned by the bank.

    If Party C comes and finds that Party B is foreclosing, I think the burden is on Party B to have solved this. But I think you underestimate the potential paper trail crisis when stuff like this is happening: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/16/yo...s/16money.html

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