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  1. #1

    Default USA to go bust

    Just like Iceland, Greece, Ireland....

    No, we're not in the Eurozone, and we don't need the IMF to throw us a life line. We have our own central bank, with our own printing press, and the US dollar is still the dominant international currency.

    But we do have this pesky thing about our debt, and a new congress with Tea Party people who threaten not to increase our national debt ceiling. That might put the US into immediate default, unable to pay interest on our debt.

    It's never happened before, but that doesn't mean it's impossible or even improbable. Just because we are the US of fuckin' A doesn't give us immunity from going bust.

    Let's play a little game though, and follow the dominoes, if the USA officially declared bankruptcy......

    What would the first events look like?

  2. #2
    Following article is meant only for context, outlining the magnitude of our problems. There are a few domestic hints if anyone wants to play the game of falling dominoes. The rest would be international.....IMO it wouldn't impact China too quickly, but if/when it did, we'd be up shit creek without a paddle:


    Will the next fiscal crisis start in Washington?

    By Sheila C. Bair
    Friday, November 26, 2010


    Two years ago the United States experienced its worst financial crisis since the 1930s. The crisis began on Wall Street, where misguided bets on risky mortgage loans resulted in enormous losses that few anticipated. More than 4 million jobs were lost in just six months after the peak of the crisis. There is hardly one Main Street in America not still feeling its effects.

    Even as work continues to repair our financial infrastructure and get the economy moving again, we need urgent action to forestall the next financial crisis. I fear that one will start in Washington. Total federal debt has doubled in the past seven years, to almost $14 trillion. That's more than $100,000 for every American household. This explosive growth in federal borrowing is a result of not just the financial crisis but also government unwillingness over many years to make the hard choices necessary to rein in our long-term structural deficit.

    Retiring baby boomers, who will live longer on average than any previous generation, will have a major impact on government spending. This year, the combined expenditures on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are projected to account for 45 percent of primary federal spending, up from 27 percent in 1975. The Congressional Budget Office projects that annual entitlement spending could triple in real terms by 2035, to $4.5 trillion in today's dollars. Defense spending is similarly unsustainable, and our tax code is riddled with special-interest provisions that have little to do with our broader economic prosperity. Overly generous tax subsidies for housing and health care have contributed to rising costs and misallocation of resources.


    Unless something is done, federal debt held by the public could rise from a level equal to 62 percent of gross domestic product this year to 185 percent in 2035. Eventually, this relentless federal borrowing will directly threaten our financial stability by undermining the confidence that investors have in U.S. government obligations. Financial markets are already sending disquieting signals. The cost for bond investors and others to purchase insurance against a default by the U.S. government rose markedly during the financial crisis, from an annual premium of less than 2 basis points in January 2007 to 100 basis points in early 2009, before falling to the current level of 41 basis points.

    With more than 70 percent of U.S. Treasury obligations held by private investors scheduled to mature in the next five years, an erosion of investor confidence would lead to sharp increases in government and private borrowing costs. And while we enjoy a uniquely favored status today - investors still view U.S. Treasury securities as a haven during crises - events in Greece and Ireland should serve as a warning. The yields on their long-term government securities have risen from rough parity with U.S. Treasury obligations in early 2007 to levels that are hundreds of basis points higher. If investors were to similarly lose confidence in U.S. public debt, we could expect high and volatile interest rates to impose losses on financial institutions that hold Treasury instruments, and to raise the funding costs of depository institutions, which can be highly vulnerable to interest-rate shocks. All of us would pay more for consumer and business credit, and our economy would suffer.

    Recent proposals by the co-chairs of the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform and by the Bipartisan Policy Center represent credible first steps toward recognizing and addressing the nation's fiscal problem. Both propose to reduce and cap discretionary spending, enact comprehensive tax reform, reduce mandatory spending on health care and other programs, and ensure the long-term solvency of Social Security.

    Fixing these problems will require a bipartisan national commitment to a comprehensive package of spending cuts and tax increases over many years. Most of the needed changes will be unpopular, and they are likely to affect every interest group in some way. We will want to phase in these changes as the economy continues to recover from the effects of the financial crisis.

    Establishing a comprehensive plan now would demonstrate a firm commitment to the type of long-term budget discipline that will be needed to preserve our nation's credibility in the global financial markets and a stable banking sector at home.

    The quiet confidence of the American public in the FDIC's deposit insurance guarantee was one of the bulwarks that helped to stem the tide in the recent crisis and avert even greater economic calamity. But we must never take public or investor confidence for granted. In the end, that confidence is only as great as the resolve shown by our government in identifying emerging risks and taking concerted action to head them off. Excessive government borrowing poses a clear danger to our long-term financial stability. All of us must work together now as Americans, look beyond our narrow partisan interests and show the world that we are prepared to act boldly to secure our economic future.

    The writer is chairman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.

  3. #3
    Glad Sheila is kicking folks in the balls. I'm sure she'll get heat from this, good for her.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Glad Sheila is kicking folks in the balls. I'm sure she'll get heat from this, good for her.
    Along with Brooksley Born (years ago), Meredith Whitney (recent past) and Elizabeth Warren (today).

  5. #5
    I don't think Elizabeth Warren has come out in favor of the deficit commission's suggestions. She's a political appointee meant to keep the newspapers happy.

  6. #6
    She's been a vocal advocate for the consumer for at least a couple of years. That's probably why she was appointed by the Obama administration.

  7. #7
    GGT - a US default is extremely unlikely. Even if the debt ceiling isn't raised, the President has a lot of options at his disposal to keep things going. It's happened before, and it's likely to happen again - last time IMO was with Clinton and the budget crisis with the new GOP Congress. There are a few options, but one easy one is to raid Social Security - since it's not external debt, the government can easily use that money to fund ongoing commitments without raising the debt ceiling. Other solutions include shutting down the government and such, and will easily keep things funded for quite a while without raising the debt ceiling - or a default.

    I think this is why markets seem unworried about the prospect of American default. The reason why Ireland and Greece are in trouble is that their fundamental economic weakness and the sheer size of their debt is unmanageable. The US has neither of these issues, just some political deadlock that can easily be circumvented by the executive.

  8. #8
    I'm not aware of congress ever refusing to raise our debt ceiling. The government shut downs in previous administrations weren't related to our sovereign debt, but squabbling in congress. (Correct me if I'm wrong about that)

    American markets seem unworried about the true state of our affairs, because they've become disconnected from reality. It's why "technical analysis" is ambivalent or futile. If our markets reflected the reality of Main Street, it wouldn't look the same at all. Part of that is due to the Fed pumping billions into the economy, and buying trillions of assets. That lifts certain things artificially, with the hope that it will lift consumer confidence and more bank lending.

    But we can't get out of this hole by shopping for more Chinese shit, let alone using credit and debt to buy it.

    And everybody knows

  9. #9
    Not true, in the 1995 showdown between Gringrich and Clinton Congress refused to authorize an increase in the debt limit without Clinton agreeing to their budget (which he didn't), meaning the government shut down for about two months.

  10. #10
    Ok thanks, I didn't know that. I stand corrected.

  11. #11
    All we need to do is cut defense spending in half and raise tax revenue by less than 1% and we'll be fine.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    All we need to do is cut defense spending in half and raise tax revenue by less than 1% and we'll be fine.
    I could go for that. Bring our troops home, close some bases abroad. Maybe employ some military at our borders, for a fraction of the cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Let the Bush tax cuts for the top 2% expire.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    All we need to do is cut defense spending in half and raise tax revenue by less than 1% and we'll be fine.
    Not in the long run we wouldn't be.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Not in the long run we wouldn't be.
    He also isn't very good at math. Cutting the defense budget in half would cut spending by about $450 billion. Increasing revenue by 1% would lead to a $25 billion increase in revenue. The deficit is $1.25 trillion.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    He also isn't very good at math. Cutting the defense budget in half would cut spending by about $450 billion. Increasing revenue by 1% would lead to a $25 billion increase in revenue. The deficit is $1.25 trillion.
    Right, like we've seen any ideas from Dr. Loki.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    He also isn't very good at math. Cutting the defense budget in half would cut spending by about $450 billion. Increasing revenue by 1% would lead to a $25 billion increase in revenue. The deficit is $1.25 trillion.
    I think he meant raising the marginal income tax rate by 1% point, not raising revenues by 1%. Even so, I'm skeptical it would be enough but I didn't run the math.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    He also isn't very good at math. Cutting the defense budget in half would cut spending by about $450 billion. Increasing revenue by 1% would lead to a $25 billion increase in revenue. The deficit is $1.25 trillion.
    Um, I didn't say cut the defense budget in half. I said cut defense spending in half. Are you sly enough to discern the difference?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  18. #18
    Let ALL of W's cuts expire.

  19. #19
    GDP is about $14 trillion. 1% of GDP is $140 billion. Raising the marginal income tax by 1% wouldn't give you that $140 billion (I'd be surprised if it increased revenues by half of that), but even if we assume that it does, that still only cuts the deficit by $600 billion ($140b+460b).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    And how much is our involvement in Afghanistan costing? How much are we still paying to build Iraq?

  21. #21
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...ets/budget.pdf Have a look at page 149 (153/192) and then tell me how cutting "defense spending" in half would cut the deficit by over a trillion. Are you a pathological liar in real life too, or just here?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...ets/budget.pdf Have a look at page 149 (153/192) and then tell me how cutting "defense spending" in half would cut the deficit by over a trillion. Are you a pathological liar in real life too, or just here?
    Riiiight, never count unfunded spending when arguing your false pretense.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  23. #23
    We wait with bated breath for Dr. Loki's magical mathematics that will solve all our problems.

  24. #24
    I appologize for the off-topic but can someone explain why the Ireland thread got closed? Is Rand pouting because it took a turn? That'd be kinda selfish and possibly a misuse of authority.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  25. #25
    See my point above. Why do you continue writing when you know that you have no knowledge about this topic?

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