Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 51

Thread: 2010 Legatum prosperity index for nations

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default 2010 Legatum prosperity index for nations

    1 Norway
    2 Denmark
    3 Finland
    4 Australia
    5 New Zealand
    6 Sweden
    7 Canada
    8 Switzerland
    9 Netherlands
    10 United States
    11 Ireland
    12 Iceland
    13 United Kingdom
    14 Austria
    15 Germany
    16 Belgium
    17 Singapore
    18 Japan
    19 France
    20 Hong Kong
    The World's Happiest Countries
    Christopher Helman, 01.19.11, 12:00 PM EST

    Most of the nations atop our list are democratic, business-friendly and boast strong social safety nets.

    Think about it for a minute: What does happiness mean to you?

    For most, being happy starts with having enough money to do what you want and buy what you want. A nice home, food, clothes, car, leisure. All within reason.

    But happiness is much more than money. It's being healthy, free from pain, being able to take care of yourself. It's having good times with friends and family.

    Furthermore, happiness means being able to speak what's on your mind without fear, to worship the God of your choosing, and to feel safe and secure in your own home.

    Happiness means having opportunity--to get an education, to be an entrepreneur. What's more satisfying than having a big idea and turning it into a thriving business, knowing all the way that the harder you work, the more reward you can expect?

    With this in mind, five years ago researchers at the Legatum Institute, a London-based nonpartisan think tank, set out to rank the happiest countries in the world. But because "happy" carries too much of a touchy-feely connotation, they call it "prosperity."

    Legatum recently completed its 2010 Prosperity Index, which ranks 110 countries, covering 90% of the world's population.

    To build its index Legatum gathers data from 12 sources the Gallup polling group, the Heritage Foundation and the World Economic Forum. Each country is ranked on 89 variables sorted into eight subsections: economy, entrepreneurship, governance, education, health, safety, personal freedom and social capital.

    The core conceit: Prosperity is complex; achieving it relies on a confluence of factors that build on each other in a virtuous circle.

    "To use economic measurements alone to gauge the success of a nation would be equivalent to assessing the entire condition of a man simply by looking at his bank balance," writes Peter Mandelson, former U.K. economic minister.

    To that end, the inputs used to create the index are both objective and subjective: that's because it's not enough to know hard data like a country's unemployment or inflation rates. It also matters how hard people think it is to find jobs, how convinced they are that hard work can bring success.

    This can get complicated. In Nepal, for example, inflation is 11%, unemployment 46%. Yet a surprisingly high 50% of the people say they are satisfied with their standard of living and 81% have confidence in their banks. Could be they're scared of voicing their true opinion in a shaky democracy, or maybe the Nepalese are just endemically happier people. Legatum adjusts for this, adding a variable called "ability to express political opinion without fear."

    What's the most prosperous country in the world? Norway. What's it got that the rest of the world doesn't? The biggest bump comes from having the world's highest per capita GDP of $53,000 a year. Norwegians have the second-highest level of satisfaction with their standards of living: 95% say they are satisfied with the freedom to choose the direction of their lives; an unparalleled 74% say other people can be trusted.

    Cynics (particularly those leaving comments on Legatum's excellent website) say Norway's ranking is a fluke, that it's a boring, godless (just 13% go to church) homogeneous place to live with a massive welfare state bankrolled by high taxes. Without massive offshore reserves of oil and gas that it exports to the world through state-controlled Statoil ( STO - news - people ), Norway's GDP would be far smaller.

    And yet joining Norway in the top 10 prosperous countries are its Scandinavian sisters Denmark, Finland and Sweden, with equally small and civilized Switzerland and the Netherlands also in the club. None of these countries are blessed with great hoards of oil and gas.

    So what gives? What do these prosperous European nations have in common that can somehow explain their prosperity? Being an electoral democracy is almost a given--of the top 25 most prosperous countries, only Singapore and Hong Kong aren't.

    Being small helps too. Big countries have so many disparate groups (ethnic, geographic, civic) vying against each other that it's hard for true social cohesion and trust to emerge, and harder to maintain high levels of safety. Among countries with populations of more than 150 million, the United States ranks highest, at No. 10.

    What else? They are all borderline socialist states, with generous welfare benefits and lots of redistribution of wealth. Yet they don't let that socialism cross the line into autocracy. Civil liberties are abundant (consider decriminalized drugs and prostitution in the Netherlands). There are few restrictions on the flow of capital or of labor. Legatum's scholars point out that Denmark, for example, has little job protection, but generous unemployment benefits. So business owners can keep the right number of workers, while workers can have a safety net while they muck around looking for that fulfilling job.

    Of perhaps utmost importance, nearly all the nations in the top 10 are adept at fostering entrepreneurship and opportunity. Legatum's researchers concluded that a country's ranking in this area is the clearest proxy of its overall ranking in the index.

    This means low business startup costs, lots of cellphones, plenty of secure Internet servers, a history of high R&D spending and the perception that working hard gets you ahead.

    That last bit--the perception that working hard pays off--is especially vital. Consider that Denmark and Sweden rank first and second in entrepreneurship and opportunity, but only 77% of Swedes and 84% of Danes think that working hard will get them ahead. Compare that with the U.S., the No. 3 country for entrepreneurship and opportunity. Fully 9 of 10 Americans think that hard work will pay off.

    Perception matters. Alan McCormick, a managing director at Legatum, points out that the U.S. remains the envy of the world when it comes to entrepreneurialism, pointing out that during the recession year of 2009, Americans created 558,000 new businesses each month. That's 27,000 more per month than in 2008 and 60,000 more per month than in 2007.

    For countries that want to move up in the prosperity rankings, that care about improving the happiness of their people, one of the best ways may be to cultivate an entrepreneurial culture.

    "Over the last three decades, new startups have accounted for nearly all of the increased employment in the American private sector," says McCormick. "Entrepreneurial societies raise levels of expectation and produce a culture in which human potential is released, healthy risk-taking is encouraged, and where the fledgling business ideas of today become the global-selling products of tomorrow."

    Entrepreneurialism also gives a society a mechanism by which it can address and improve other aspects of the prosperity ecosystem. Want better education, health care or safety? Someone's ready to sell it to you.

    So what else does the U.S. have going for it? High levels of governance, education and freedom. But most surprising, Legatum gives the U.S. the top ranking in the world when it comes to health.

    Huh? Didn't we spend last year decrying the sorry state of an American health care system that had left 40 million uninsured? This doesn't mean the U.S. has the best health care system, says McCormick, but $5,500 a year in per-capita health spending has resulted in excellent vaccination rates, water quality and sanitation.

    Lacking: the U.S. scored just 62nd in feeling "well rested." Compare that with China, which ranked 12th in being well rested.

    That takes us back to our original question: What does happiness mean to you? Does being well rested fit into the equation? Maybe. But not if all that shuteye is because you don't have a job to go to. Or if you have no choice but to rest because you don't have access to real medical care. China ranks 66th in health, spending just $350 per capita per year.

    Lacking: the U.S. scored just 62nd in feeling "well rested." Compare that with China, which ranked 12th in being well rested.

    That takes us back to our original question: What does happiness mean to you? Does being well rested fit into the equation? Maybe. But not if all that shuteye is because you don't have a job to go to. Or if you have no choice but to rest because you don't have access to real medical care. China ranks 66th in health, spending just $350 per capita per year.

    Overall China is the 58th most prosperous nation in the world. Despite scoring well in economic measures, it's dragged down by a rank of 92nd in safety and security and 102nd in personal freedom (just edging out Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe).

    And the worst? Zimbabwe is the least prosperous country on Earth, followed by Pakistan, according to the study, with most of the rest of sub-Saharan Africa not much better. To be fair, some countries, like North Korea, are so far off the deep end that they don't publish any data or let in pollsters to quiz their people.

    How to improve their plight? Economic growth at all costs. Roger Bate, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, points out that if you live in one of the poorest nations, a doubling of income from $3,000 to $6,000 per year will generate a lot more additional happiness than would a pay raise of the same amount, from $33,000 to $36,000, for a citizen of a prosperous country.

    Ultimately how happy you are depends on how happy you've been. If you're already rich, like Scandinavia, then more freedom, security and health would add the most to happiness. For the likes of China and India (ranked 88th), it's more a case of "show me the money." What they want most of all? The opportunity to prove to themselves that money doesn't buy happiness.
    It's like the US press is being controlled by the Scandahoovians or something, they have such a hard-on about lying to innocent American consumers that they're not #1
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #2
    And you again support something of incredibly dubious quality because it supports your preexisting beliefs. This index is ridiculously subjective and based on measures that frankly aren't reliable and are highly culture-specific. Had I posted something similar with the opposite conclusion, you'd be calling me the Prince of Lies.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    I didn't support or denigrate their findings, I just posted an article about them (in the silly forum) because I thought it might make for some interesting comments.

    And it did!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I didn't support or denigrate their findings, I just posted an article about them (in the silly forum) because I thought it might make for some interesting comments.

    And it did!
    Can you honestly say that you wouldn't roll your eyes and call me a liar if I posted a similar article with the opposite conclusions?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Can you honestly say that you wouldn't roll your eyes and call me a liar if I posted a similar article with the opposite conclusions?
    Depends on what they looked at. I know alcoholism and depression among youngsters (teens to early adults) are pretty high at least in Finland, so something's afoul in De-- Well you get the idea. If your study with opposite results focused overly on things I find objectionable on ideological grounds, I'd probably make a fuss as you expect, but the point of ideology is thinking you're right, right?

    And as per my joke, Newsweek had similar findings last year. I think it's funny. I'm sure we could dig up some studies that support your world-view on Conservapedia, or something.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  6. #6
    From Nessie's link:

    For countries that want to move up in the prosperity rankings, that care about improving the happiness of their people, one of the best ways may be to cultivate an entrepreneurial culture.

    "Over the last three decades, new startups have accounted for nearly all of the increased employment in the American private sector," says McCormick. "Entrepreneurial societies raise levels of expectation and produce a culture in which human potential is released, healthy risk-taking is encouraged, and where the fledgling business ideas of today become the global-selling products of tomorrow."

    Entrepreneurialism also gives a society a mechanism by which it can address and improve other aspects of the prosperity ecosystem. Want better education, health care or safety? Someone's ready to sell it to you.

    From the Norway Says Ja to Socialism thread:

    Norway is also full of entrepreneurs like Wiggo Dalmo. Rates of start-up creation here are among the highest in the developed world, and Norway has more entrepreneurs per capita than the United States, according to the latest report by the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, a Boston-based research consortium. A 2010 study released by the U.S. Small Business Administration reported a similar result: Although America remains near the top of the world in terms of entrepreneurial aspirations -- that is, the percentage of people who want to start new things—in terms of actual start-up activity, our country has fallen behind not just Norway but also Canada, Denmark, and Switzerland.

  7. #7
    "Economy, entrepreneurship, governance, education, health, safety, personal freedom and social capital."

    I most definitely would agree that Norway ranks among the best in those respects, but I think happiness is moreover about the street life. Here we are quite tense, sometimes respectless and quite cold in how we treat each other. These indexes further boast us being conceited, thinking we are "best in class" while reality is that we're just lucky we got a lot of oil reserved for a little population. The prejudice here is that in the US people are slight overexaggerated with the "come over to my house the next time you're in town" false friendly attitude, that they are easily fooled through say Tea Party or religious meetings, got retarded talk shows to do the morals, and a general mishabit of not thinking logically oneself. This forum consisting of some brilliant thinkers though, clearly shows that this is just a model shown through the media (unless you would acknowledge yourself as a minority ).

    If I were to point out someplace, then I'd say Spain is quite friendly minded and including. The Danish are also cheerful a lot, especially the adults who do not act like rebelious snotty kids like sadly a lot of them do these days.
    Tomorrow is like an empty canvas that extends endlessly, what should I sketch on it?

  8. #8
    Now, now. We can call Icky the Prince of Lies even if he doesn't post something with the opposite conclusion, just for shits and giggles.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    It's like the US press is being controlled by the Scandahoovians or something, they have such a hard-on about lying to innocent American consumers that they're not #1
    I don't know...it looks like it's just kowtowing to some stupid American group. Otherwise the US would clearly be at the very bottom of the list.

  10. #10
    I had posted a global HappiNess Index once, including another one showing Americans' relatively low level of happy factor. As I recall, there were many posts trying to show how USA is #1, based on the pre-existing belief that the USA is #1. Some of those posts were yours, Loki.

  11. #11
    More than a quarter of the top 20 have land in their name.
    Now I'm jealous.

  12. #12
    Thanks for pointing out that you oppose my factual arguments when they run contrary to your ideology, not to reasonable standards of providing evidence.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Thanks for pointing out that you oppose my factual arguments when they run contrary to your ideology, not to reasonable standards of providing evidence.
    You've been saying this for a couple of days now, but you do remember your parents teaching you that saying it often enough doesn't make it true, right? I'd "make a fuss" in the sense that I'd disagree with their choice of criterion, and so on. You and I most often clash on points that can't really be objectively measured; the most efficient way of producing iPods doesn't necessarily make for the best society to live in, and so on. Ranking societies, universities or whatever has to be done on some fundamentally arbitrary basis which focuses on some aspects at the cost of others. Like I said, ideology means thinking you're right, so you're upset at me because I disagree with you, and what you perceive as factual reality. And vice versa. So we spend hours of our spare time each week yelling at each other. I guess we get some sense of satisfaction from the riposte, but I doubt either can objectively prove the other one fundamentally wrong. The US has homeless family tent camps, Finland has rampant alcoholism and people mooching off a crumbling welfare state. Both societies will 'fall' sooner or later, but that's just how it goes.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    The US has homeless family tent camps
    Give us a break, we are working as fast as we can to outlaw any and all signs of this portion of the population.

  15. #15
    Except you never bother to refute actual facts, let alone educated opinions. You think that anything that comes up with conclusions that run counter to your ideology must by default be false, and totally ignore any evidence to the contrary. It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you not because we have diametrically opposed beliefs, but because we have diametrically opposed standards of evidence. One literally can't prove you wrong because you consider any such proof as being dismissible on ideological grounds.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
    I'd object to your absolute terms, but I have been a pretty lazy debater lately. But you've proposed we marry high-school drop outs so they can live together cheaper, while remaining chaste. It's not like I have a monopoly on unhinged argumentation here.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I'd object to your absolute terms, but I have been a pretty lazy debater lately. But you've proposed we marry high-school drop outs so they can live together cheaper, while remaining chaste. It's not like I have a monopoly on unhinged argumentation here.
    You also seem to conflate the opinions of everyone who disagrees with you; makes it easier to demonize those people, doesn't it? I'm fairly sure that was said by Rand (or maybe Lewk). And even if I were to say that (which I wouldn't), that shouldn't affect actual evidence in support of that assertion. Do you dismiss out of hand any evidence presented in physics papers whose thesis you disagree with?
    Last edited by Loki; 01-24-2011 at 04:16 PM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You also seem to conflate the opinions of everyone who disagrees with you; makes it easier to demonize those people, doesn't it? I'm fairly sure that was said by Rand (or maybe Lewk). And even if I were to say that (which I wouldn't), that shouldn't affect actual evidence in support of that assertion. Do you dismiss out of hand any evidence presented in physics papers whose thesis you disagree with?
    I am going to assume poor memory over malice (Cthulhu knows I have a shitty memory myself) but I can find you the chat-logs where you discuss your financial advice for the poor. Not today, though, they're on a different PC.

    Though I happened to pick an interesting example given your response; you were perfectly right in saying that two high-school drop outs would have an easier time financially if they pool their house-holds, and one could get educated and work part-time while the other works full time, with the roles reversed once the first one graduates. It's great advice on paper, and it's well-documented that single people get the shaft when it comes to living expenses. I wouldn't dream of contesting that.

    Not that I dream about arguments with you in general

    But see, the thing is, there are considerations other than financial here. Given the laughably low standards of US high schools (or even colleges), the drop-outs must, for the most part, represent the astoundingly stupid, the mentally ill, and the ones with awful parents/other home problems. There are the lazy, too. The idea that these people should form house-holds together is amazingly terrible when we consider the likely stability and well-being of their relationship, it is also well-documented how poorly relationships formed early in life perform with ones formed later in life. It's also quite likely they would live in an area where abortions are practically not available, and also pose a problem with local society. Their birth control would have to be pretty rock-solid, and while I don't have stats on hand, I would suggest that the possibility of children is non-negligible.

    Not to mention how miserable their lives would be, on a day to day basis. They'd both work to exhaustion in meaningless jobs (meaningless in the sense of unfulfilling, there's meaning in the Bic Mac served to the customer but not to the worker), they probably couldn't save more than a couple months' living expenses as a fall-back money if they lose their jobs. And the unskilled, young workers tend to be the first ones culled when the next croney capitalist bubble bursts. So they'd be afraid all the time. They'd be tired, and given their likely inability to have constructive relationship-conversations, they'd probably bicker and hate one another in short order. And they'd be working/studying all the time, I guess you could argue that their lack of time would act as a birth control!

    Then they both graduate, and have spent the time between 16 and 30 being miserable. Yay.

    I don't remember if we've discussed this, but I don't disagree with you about free market capitalism being a wonderful economic system. It is! It works on the principles of evolution, and evolution's pretty spiffy. My problem, as I suspect is the problem of most leftist thinkers (or non-thinkers, if you prefer), is the cost in human misery. Survival of the fittest means destroying the competition, and in this case that means killing people. White people! I mean, really. That's unacceptable. Or at the very least having a suffering underclass; you saw my conversation with Enoch who blatantly stated that poor people should be miserable. I'd much prefer a system where everyone has some, instead of the polarized society of haves and have-nots the US has been engineering since, when? Reagan? Before that?

    Which does not mean I think the USSR was a wonderful place where everybody was happy and content. They weren't. Their economic system was a fucking mess, and was subsidized on slave labour.

    I am also aware how much the US (and USSR) subsidized the growth of the West European welfare states. You had your own, genocidal political motives behind that, and we took advantage of you in a very self-serving, capitalist way. Greed is good! Right?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I am going to assume poor memory over malice (Cthulhu knows I have a shitty memory myself) but I can find you the chat-logs where you discuss your financial advice for the poor. Not today, though, they're on a different PC.

    Though I happened to pick an interesting example given your response; you were perfectly right in saying that two high-school drop outs would have an easier time financially if they pool their house-holds, and one could get educated and work part-time while the other works full time, with the roles reversed once the first one graduates. It's great advice on paper, and it's well-documented that single people get the shaft when it comes to living expenses. I wouldn't dream of contesting that.
    I'm still not sure who you are arguing against. I don't recall ever saying that high school drop outs should marry for the financial benefits. Your argument seems to be a bigger attack on the poor than anything (you think) I said by the way. You basically don't think poor people should marry one another because they're genetically inferior...I.E. Your argument is not an economic one, and I fail to see how you're using it to refute economic advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Immeasurable?

    Then why don't you condemn those polls asking, "Do you think our country is going in the right direction?" or "Do you believe your children will enjoy a better life-style than yours?"
    I think the questions are generally pointless. The only utility I see in them is comparing the responses over time. Presumably something bad must have happened if a larger portion of the population starts to believe the country in going in the wrong direction. Doing a cross-country comparison of the answers to those questions would be idiotic.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm still not sure who you are arguing against. I don't recall ever saying that high school drop outs should marry for the financial benefits. Your argument seems to be a bigger attack on the poor than anything (you think) I said by the way. You basically don't think poor people should marry one another because they're genetically inferior...I.E. Your argument is not an economic one, and I fail to see how you're using it to refute economic advice.
    Who or What are you arguing for?



    I think the questions are generally pointless. The only utility I see in them is comparing the responses over time. Presumably something bad must have happened if a larger portion of the population starts to believe the country in going in the wrong direction. Doing a cross-country comparison of the answers to those questions would be idiotic.
    Then cross-country polls are a waste of time. Will you do your best to change this type of Political Scientist non-science or pseudo-science, Doctor Loki?

    The only reason for these mealy hot button surveys and polls that I can see, is to tell politicians how to run their campaigns, write a speech, or sell a strategy.

  21. #21
    You will begin bombing in five minutes?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  22. #22
    Shouldn't we marry the high school dropouts to wealthy men and women who need unpaid maids and nannies instead? Legal slavery!

  23. #23
    Bah, can you prove yourself right, Loki? How're you going to do that when it comes to levels of happiness? Everything objective we've discussed in this forum has shown that the US is NOT #1 in things like:

    Debt burdens
    Infrastructure
    Environment
    Health Care
    Education
    Longevity
    Infant mortality
    Elder Care
    Veteran Care
    Retirement Security


    What other things would you add to the Objective list? How could you possibly prove the USA is the Happy place you think it is?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What other things would you add to the Objective list? How could you possibly prove the USA is the Happy place you think it is?
    A) I think happiness is ultimately an unmeasurable concept. Fighting over which country is happiest is like fighting over which country is the "best"; that kind of argument should be left to angsty teenagers.
    B) Every attempt I've seen to operationalize happiness had a clear ideological component.
    C) I don't think Americans are the happiest in the world. I have no way of knowing, and frankly, don't think it's a very interesting question.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    A) I think happiness is ultimately an unmeasurable concept. Fighting over which country is happiest is like fighting over which country is the "best"; that kind of argument should be left to angsty teenagers.
    B) Every attempt I've seen to operationalize happiness had a clear ideological component.
    C) I don't think Americans are the happiest in the world. I have no way of knowing, and frankly, don't think it's a very interesting question.
    Immeasurable?

    Then why don't you condemn those polls asking, "Do you think our country is going in the right direction?" or "Do you believe your children will enjoy a better life-style than yours?"

    Those are also ways of "operationalizing" happiness. Other commonly used words are---trust, content, satisfied, optimistic. Loaded words. They're found in almost every single political science survey, too. Got a better idea of how to separate peoples' ideologies from conceptual harmonies without using words?

    Ya know, no one is fighting over which country is happiest or best. Saying only angsty teenagers think about quality of life or standard of living is just.....well, that's just naive.

  26. #26
    It's the most interesting question there is, and the answer isn't unmeasurable or unknowable--it's measurable and knowable to a certain extent. We can argue about the degree of uncertainty if we like. I'd like to think that a London-based think-tank that rakes in dough has some standards anyway.

    I like the fact that the article tries to provide a balanced discussion for the enjoyment of those that actually decide to read it.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #27
    So that's where our huge disagreement lies? If I don't talk in strictly economic terms, I'm refusing to have an honest conversation?

    (this is about as honest of reading of your post as yours of mine)
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    So that's where our huge disagreement lies? If I don't talk in strictly economic terms, I'm refusing to have an honest conversation?

    (this is about as honest of reading of your post as yours of mine)
    You seem to be arguing against allowing poor people to get married. You're "countering" an argument about poor people being better off if they're married. Except you don't say they'd be worse off, and your solution seems to be some kind of a forced marrying of poor people to rich people (or not letting poor people marry). I.E. You're not responding to the actual argument (which I didn't even make).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29


    Okay.

    Also, I have those chat logs, do you want me to post them when I'm on that PC?

    Furthermore, if you're so sure that discussion with me is impossible because I'm dishonest/stupid/whatever, why don't you just ignore me? I'm just white noise like Alpha or Being or whoever you already have on your list. Why do you persist? After all, this altercation began with you coming at me full-steam.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Furthermore, if you're so sure that discussion with me is impossible because I'm dishonest/stupid/whatever, why don't you just ignore me? I'm just white noise like Alpha or Being or whoever you already have on your list. Why do you persist? After all, this altercation began with you coming at me full-steam.
    I might be on his white noise list, too.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •