Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 134

Thread: German Government Shoots Country in Foot; Reloads

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default German Government Shoots Country in Foot; Reloads

    Seriously?

    May 11, 2011
    Panel Urges Germany to Close Nuclear Plants by 2021

    By JUDY DEMPSEY

    BERLIN — Germany should close all of its nuclear power plants by 2021 and rely entirely on other forms of energy, according to a committee appointed by Chancellor Angela Merkel in the wake of the Fukushima Daiichi disaster in Japan.

    The recommendations, which have not been made public, will go to a panel of specialists meeting in a closed session in Berlin this weekend. Mrs. Merkel said this week that Germany would certainly end its reliance on nuclear energy, and that the only question was how long nuclear would be needed as a “bridge technology” until other forms of energy could meet the country’s needs.

    Nuclear energy provides 22.6 percent of Germany’s electricity, according to the Energy Ministry. Coal supplies more than 42 percent; natural gas, 13.6 percent; and renewable sources like wind and solar, 16.5 percent. Other sources provide the rest.

    Not even Japan, site of the nuclear disaster that followed an earthquake and tsunami in March, plans to abandon nuclear power. Prime Minister Naoto Kan said on Tuesday that Japan would scrap plans to build 14 more nuclear reactors while the government re-evaluated its energy policies. Nuclear energy provides 30 percent of Japan’s electricity.

    Germany’s move away from nuclear energy is being closely watched by environmental groups and other European governments, particularly those in Central and Eastern Europe that plan to develop or expand nuclear power production.

    “At the moment, there is really a mixed picture in responding to the Japanese disaster by countries that have nuclear power,” said Serge Gas, a spokesman for the Nuclear Energy Agency, part of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

    While Russia, Britain, France and Poland have said they will leave their nuclear energy policies largely unchanged, Italy and Switzerland have stopped development of new reactors. Germany, which has a strong antinuclear movement that cuts across the political spectrum, has gone the furthest in reacting to the Fukushima accident.

    According to the World Nuclear Association, an industry group, 440 nuclear reactors operate in 31 countries, producing about 15 percent of the world’s electricity. The association said more than 60 plants were being built in 15 countries, notably Russia, China and South Korea.

    Germany has 17 reactors; six are boiling water reactors, which is the design used at Fukushima, and 11 use pressurized water. The United States has 104 operating reactors, of which 35 are boiling water reactors and 69 are pressurized water.

    Big German energy companies, including RWE and E.ON, have warned that the rapid withdrawal of nuclear power could spell disaster for the economy, lead to electricity shortages and turn the country into a net importer of energy.

    But the so-called Ethics Commission appointed by Mrs. Merkel said that rather than being damaged by the abandonment of nuclear power, the German economy could benefit from the reduction of energy use and the development of alternative power sources.

    The commission is led by a conservative, Klaus Töpfer, a former environment minister and former executive director of the United Nations Environment Program, and Matthias Kleiner, president of the German Research Foundation. The 22 panel members were drawn from the energy industry and nongovernmental organizations.

    “A withdrawal from nuclear power will spur growth, offer enormous technical, economic and social opportunities to position Germany even further as an exporter of sustainable products and services,” said the panel’s 28-page report, which was seen by The International Herald Tribune. “Germany could show that a withdrawal from nuclear energy is the chance to create a high-powered economy.”

    But while citing the economic benefits of a withdrawal from nuclear power, the commission emphasized that Germany’s 17 nuclear plants should be closed for safety reasons. “The withdrawal is necessary to fundamentally eliminate risks,” it said.

    The commission also said it would be unacceptable for Germany to ration electricity, import power from nuclear plants in other countries or increase carbon dioxide emissions. “There is an ethical responsibility to combat climate change,” it said.

    The commission acknowledged that it was not possible to greatly accelerate the development of renewable energy. Instead, it recommended measures, including reducing energy use by as much as 60 percent and developing cleaner technologies for coal-fired power plants.

    Only last year, Mrs. Merkel overturned a decision by a previous Social Democratic-Green government to close Germany’s nuclear plants by 2022, instead allowing the newer reactors to operate well into the 2030s.

    She quickly changed her mind in March, as the damage to the Fukushima Daiichi plant became apparent. She ordered seven of Germany’s power plants to be temporarily closed, instituted a moratorium on construction of new reactors, ordered an intensive review of security and safety measures, and appointed the Ethics Commission.

    She announced the decision days before regional elections in southwestern Germany, where the Greens soundly defeated the governing conservatives.

    Matthew L. Wald contributed reporting from Washington.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/12/bu.../12energy.html

  2. #2
    Maybe the plan is that through the EU they can get their vassal states to host nucular plants and buy voltage from those?

    Oh, guess not.

    Well, if anyone is going to master orbital solar power transmitters, it'll be Teuton engineers!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Seriously?
    What is your surprise, Merkels plans to get out of NE or her always changing opinion about it. I have only problems with the later.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  4. #4
    I love the assertion that withdrawing from nuclear power is going to spur economic growth.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  5. #5
    I guess I'm not familiar with Merkel's flip-flopping on this. But the part that really galled me was the same as Fuzzy. The idea that this will be an economic boon is something beyond wishful thinking.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Germans are quite the hysterical lot when it comes to NE.
    Congratulations America

  7. #7
    I guess they're expecting one of those 9.0 earthquakes.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I guess they're expecting one of those 9.0 earthquakes.
    Let me point out that Germany did indeed have some earthquakes in the 4 to 6 area. And that our reactors are only certified up to 5.

    Then take this map, consider that most reactors are located in southern Germany, that those reactors are only certified for quakes with a strength of 5 on the Richter scale and it's actually a valid concern.



    The repetition period for quakes of M_L = 5.1 is 10 years, for M_L = 5.8 is 50 years and for M_L = 6.1 is about 100 years when using the data for German earthquakes over the last 250 years. (M_L being the local quake magnitude)
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Oh come on. A valid concern warranting getting out of it alltogether or a valid concern warranting retrofitting existing reactors and setting higher standards for future ones ?
    Congratulations America

  10. #10
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Oh come on. A valid concern warranting getting out of it alltogether or a valid concern warranting retrofitting existing reactors and setting higher standards for future ones ?
    I'm not sure that you actually can retrofit reactors to such a degree. I mean, you also can't retrofit other buildings to be safe against quakes. Either you build them safe from the get-go or you don't. You can't very well add structural integrity afterwards - unless you employ molecular binding generators

    And please spare me. I simply stated why earthquakes are a valid concern regarding the older reactors. Please stop interpreting things into my posts I did not say. I mean, Loki, you can keep strawmanning like you do in the other post - keep in mind that it makes you look like an ass, though.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I'm not sure that you actually can retrofit reactors to such a degree. I mean, you also can't retrofit other buildings to be safe against quakes. Either you build them safe from the get-go or you don't. You can't very well add structural integrity afterwards - unless you employ molecular binding generators

    And please spare me. I simply stated why earthquakes are a valid concern regarding the older reactors. Please stop interpreting things into my posts I did not say. I mean, Loki, you can keep strawmanning like you do in the other post - keep in mind that it makes you look like an ass, though.
    A lot of retrofitting can be done as we're not really talking about the reactor itself but about the system of cooling the reactor, other secundary systems and the building holding the reactor.

    There are better systems than the most used ones, but you'd have to start counting on some major big ass catastrophe to seriously consider the risk too big.

    Also, if you don't want to be attacked on a half assed argument of someone else, you should consider distancing yourself from it as you post it.
    Congratulations America

  12. #12
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Doesn't mean you shouldn't build new ones.
    I actually do agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    A lot of retrofitting can be done as we're not really talking about the reactor itself but about the system of cooling the reactor, other secundary systems and the building holding the reactor.
    Even if that were so - it'd probably be way cheaper to simply build new ones.

    Also, if you don't want to be attacked on a half assed argument of someone else, you should consider distancing yourself from it as you post it.
    I'm not quite sure what I'd have to distance myself from - I simply stated the status quo. It's not my fault if a certain someone tries to read more into my posts than I actually wrote.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  13. #13
    The commission also said it would be unacceptable for Germany to ration electricity, import power from nuclear plants in other countries or increase carbon dioxide emissions. “There is an ethical responsibility to combat climate change,” it said.

    The commission acknowledged that it was not possible to greatly accelerate the development of renewable energy. Instead, it recommended measures, including reducing energy use by as much as 60 percent and developing cleaner technologies for coal-fired power plants.
    That sounds reasonable to me, especially if they have a large number of anti-nuclear people there. It'd be great if the US tried to reduce consumption by 60%....!

    How does that garner the title they're shooting themselves?

  14. #14
    Well since there are old buildings in NYC that can't handle a 5.0 earthquake, the clear solution is to stop constructing new buildings.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #15
    Doesn't mean you shouldn't build new ones.

  16. #16
    Well so what do you think is the best strategy, Khend?

  17. #17
    Any idea if the Germans who are against nuclear power are also against the use of coal, seeing that the latter kills far more people on an annual basis than nuclear disasters?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Any idea if the Germans who are against nuclear power are also against the use of coal, seeing that the latter kills far more people on an annual basis than nuclear disasters?
    The better sound-byte ('one-liner') is the one about how a coal plant puts out more radiation than a nuclear plant. Radiation bad!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    The better sound-byte ('one-liner') is the one about how a coal plant puts out more radiation than a nuclear plant. Radiation bad!
    Brick and stone houses are much more radioactive than wooden ones. But the latter get smashed easier by tornados and hurricanes - and big bad wolves. What is a mortal to do? I like nuclear power and I think the Germans are making a mistake. I do recall reading Germany was heading this way before the Japanese earthquake/ tsunami, however. And I was scratching my head then too. Oh well. We all know orbital's the only way to go, even if the short sighted can't seem to justify the start up costs.... What is a mortal to do? What, I say? What I ask?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Brick and stone houses are much more radioactive than wooden ones. But the latter get smashed easier by tornados and hurricanes - and big bad wolves. What is a mortal to do? I like nuclear power and I think the Germans are making a mistake. I do recall reading Germany was heading this way before the Japanese earthquake/ tsunami, however. And I was scratching my head then too. Oh well. We all know orbital's the only way to go, even if the short sighted can't seem to justify the start up costs.... What is a mortal to do? What, I say? What I ask?
    Personally I like nuclear, but mining and handling uranium isn't pretty either. Energy policies will have to remain hap-hazard and retarded so long as we're a bunch of nation states combating over it :/
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  21. #21
    That suggestion is equivalent to the "cutting waste" crap we hear in the US. I.E. They ruled out every solution that had any chance of work and put their faith in one that has no political cost but also no chance of working.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    The biggest problem with renewable energies is energy storage. And for that, several workable ideas exist.

    Everything else is just infrastructure.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  23. #23
    Cutting waste isn't "crap". A huge part of US energy consumption is chalked up to inefficiency and waste. You can criticize Italy and Switzerland for moving away from nuclear, too.

    The article says only 15% of global electricity comes from nuclear. Germany's is 22% nuclear currently. But it's still Germany's choice on how they want to make their national energy policy moving forward. It's not like they've ignored economic impacts, availability, rationing, imports, costs, science and technology, or environmental damage/risk.

    If Germany can reduce electricity consumption by 60%, make coal technology cleaner and more efficient, and reduce electricity imports....that makes their 22% nuclear less important. And if they can do that in ten or twenty years, more "power" to them.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I guess I'm not familiar with Merkel's flip-flopping on this. But the part that really galled me was the same as Fuzzy. The idea that this will be an economic boon is something beyond wishful thinking.
    Well her flip-floping is a major issue. We speaking about literally billions of Euros that must be invested on a replacement or not. And her stance was not a change on the nuclear stance but on the deadlines for the current reactors. So what she did was to push the deadlines far into the future, which of course changed the whole situation for investors in the energy sector. And then after Fukushima she suddenly changed her mind again, and shut down some of the reactors that she wanted to run longer.
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Cutting waste isn't "crap". A huge part of US energy consumption is chalked up to inefficiency and waste. You can criticize Italy and Switzerland for moving away from nuclear, too.
    In Swirterland nothing has been decided yet, but there are plans from a group of politans from different parties. So far the FDP,CVP and SVP were always pro NE, but now most of the CVP switched and many politicans in the FDP too. But the SVP is still pro. Italy has (thankfully) never got any nuclear power plants, I really don't wanne see the Mafie to handle that waste too.
    The article says only 15% of global electricity comes from nuclear. Germany's is 22% nuclear currently. But it's still Germany's choice on how they want to make their national energy policy moving forward. It's not like they've ignored economic impacts, availability, rationing, imports, costs, science and technology, or environmental damage/risk.
    Yeah it's their decition in the end, I don't think it will have such a impact on the economy either but Germany doesn't need a boost anyway, they have a solid growth, not sky-rocking booming, but solid.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  25. #25
    Pray tell how a country can reduce electricity consumption by 60% (without resorting to moralistic arguments about how people should behave if they were angels, please).

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    The biggest problem with renewable energies is energy storage. And for that, several workable ideas exist.

    Everything else is just infrastructure.
    And the fact that A) they currently cost far more than nuclear, and B) can't be produced in sufficient quantity to cover the supply you'd lose by abandoning nuclear.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Pray tell how a country can reduce electricity consumption by 60% (without resorting to moralistic arguments about how people should behave if they were angels, please).
    That's up to Germany, now isn't it? You've pronounced their failure before they've even started any specific policy?

    Pray Tell , how can Professor Loki make such premature and moralistic judgements?

  27. #27
    I can also pronounce right now that we don't cut our deficit by $1 trillion by "cutting waste". You know how I know this? Because it physically isn't possible. For someone who constantly rails against politicians, I'm amazed at your willingness to accept their lies without question.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I can also pronounce right now that we don't cut our deficit by $1 trillion by "cutting waste". You know how I know this? Because it physically isn't possible. For someone who constantly rails against politicians, I'm amazed at your willingness to accept their lies without question.
    You're seriously comparing national budgets and deficits to electricity? For someone who constantly rails about John Q. Public being idiots, you're not doing your political/academic standing much good.

    Pretty much everyone in the US knows that we not only over-use electricity (all energy), but that there are ways to be more efficient and use less. Insulation and window technology to reduce energy loss, programmable thermostats, certain types of light bulbs, using sunlight for its lighting and heat absorption, situating buildings to exploit the sun, planting trees for cooling shade....on and on.

    Google did that with their entire corporate HQ, experimenting with cyclical, self-sustained, alternative electricity, and relying less on "buying" or importing electricity. Are you going to criticize that, too?

  29. #29
    My mistake for assuming a rational debate with you was possible.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    My mistake for assuming a rational debate with you was possible.
    Right, I'm the irrational and unreasonable one. You're the one comparing electricity to national deficits. You're the one who said cutting waste is "crap". You're the one who dismissed the unknown risk of future earthquakes. You are the one who mentioned "lies" and "moral judgements".

    You're the one who can't admit you simply don't like Germany. No matter what they do. Must be particularly difficult for you to admit this now, when Germany is the strongest economy in Europe.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •