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  1. #1

    Default More Bad News for Free Speech in the UK

    Proposed new forum rule: board members with a UK IP who are warned for trolling will also be reported to their local police and possibly jailed.

    But seriously, this is awful.

    Source: حارس فلسطين (Guardian of Palestine)


    Internet troll jailed after mocking deaths of teenagers

    Steven Morris
    guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 13 September 2011 18.19 BST

    Sean Duffy targeted Facebook tribute pages and posted videos on YouTube taunting the dead victims and their families

    ***

    An internet troll who posted videos and messages mocking the deaths of teenagers, including a girl hit by a train, has been jailed.

    Sean Duffy, 25, targeted Facebook tribute pages and posted videos on YouTube taunting the dead and their families.

    Among his victims was Natasha MacBryde, 15, who died instantly when hit by a passenger train near her home in Bromsgrove, Worcestershire.

    The day after Natasha's death in February, Duffy posted comments including "I fell asleep on the track lolz" on the Facebook tribute page created by her brother James, 17.

    Four days later he created a YouTube video called "Tasha the Tank Engine" featuring her face superimposed on to the front of the fictional engine.

    Duffy, who is unemployed and did not know any of his victims, pleaded guilty to two counts of sending malicious communications relating to Natasha.

    He asked for three other cases of Facebook trolling – posting offensive messages on the internet – to be taken into consideration when he appeared before magistrates in Reading, Berkshire.

    Jailing him for 18 weeks, the chair of the bench, Paul Warren, told him: "You have caused untold distress to already grieving friends and family.

    "The offences are so serious only a custodial sentence could be justified."

    He went on to say that the case served as an illustration of the "harm and damage" that malicious use of social networking sites could do.

    Duffy was also given a five-year antisocial behaviour order to prohibit him from creating and accessing social network sites including Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Bebo and Myspace. He will also have to inform police of any phone he has or buys that comes with internet access.

    The court heard that Duffy has Asperger's syndrome and lived a "miserable existence" drinking alcohol alone at his home in Reading.

    Joanne Belsey, prosecuting, said Duffy's series of online attacks began following the death of 16-year-old Hayley Bates, from Staffordshire, who died in a car crash in September 2010.

    Duffy defaced pictures of her, adding crosses over her eyes and stitches over her forehead. One caption underneath a picture of flowers at the crash site read: "Used car for sale, one useless owner."

    He then went on to focus on Lauren Drew, a 14-year-old who died from an epilepsy attack at her home in Gloucester in January.

    Duffy posted offensive and upsetting images relating to her death and for Mother's Day created a YouTube video with a picture of a coffin saying "Happy Mothers Day".

    Public schoolgirl Natasha MacBryde was his next target. She killed herself after she was sent a message by an anonymous bully on a social networking website. She had also been teased by members of an all-girl clique at school.

    Duffy set up a fake tribute page on Facebook called Tasha the Tank Engine.

    On the official memorial page set up by her brother James he wrote: "I fell asleep on the track lolz," and posted images of her with text saying she was spoilt. Other trolls joined the abuse.

    Duffy's final target was Jordan Cooper, 14, from Washington, Newcastle upon Tyne, who was stabbed to death.

    Duffy created a group called "Jordan Cooper in pieces" with a profile picture of a knife with blood dripping off it. A further YouTube video was also made which contained pictures of his eyes crossed out and slashes across his face.

    Duffy's lawyer Lance Whiteford said: "In terms of mitigation there is none. I cannot imagine the trauma and anxiety caused to the families of these horrible, despicable offences."

    She said his condition meant he was not aware of the effect he was having on his victims.

    Duffy had been cautioned for a similar offence in 2009 and Whiteford said he lived an isolated life and had himself been bullied at school and work.

    Speaking outside court, Natasha MacBryde's father, Andrew, said: "He is a disturbed individual who caused the maximum of grief for his own satisfaction.

    "I think he must be a very lonely man who unfortunately tried to get attention through the most disgusting way possible.

    "In a way I feel sorry for him and I think he needs some sort of counselling as it is obviously very odd behaviour.

    "I hope his sentencing shows other trollers that they are not anonymous and they will be caught if they continue their vile games."

    He said he had not been able to watch the Tasha the Tank Engine video as it was too distressing. Following the sentencing, Lauren Drew's father Mark spoke of the devastation it caused her family as they struggled to come to terms with her death: "We were already having a hard time. Lauren was my only daughter and I worshipped the ground she walked on and this person was hiding behind a computer.

    "He caused devastation to us and other families; for so many people. It hurts but he sits behind a computer with no feeling."

    Drew called for the operators of social networking sites to take more responsibility for their content: "The web is a wonderful thing if used right but as you can see in this case it was used wrongly. These days children live on Facebook, it's their lives and they're just so vulnerable."

    After the hearing police said they would continue to track down offenders like Duffy.

    Det Ch Insp James Hahn, of Thames Valley police, said: "Clearly this has been a very emotive case, that has caused additional distress and suffering for families who have been trying to cope with the loss of loved ones.

    "Malicious communication through social networking is a new phenomenon and unfortunately shows how technology can be abused. However, our investigation shows that offenders cannot hide behind their computer screens."

  2. #2
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect...sment_Act_1997

    And I don't see why Free Speech should cover that kind of stuff.

    Unless you're subscribing to the view that human actions need no rules. Which would be a view quite disengaged from reality.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect...sment_Act_1997

    And I don't see why Free Speech should cover that kind of stuff.

    Unless you're subscribing to the view that human actions need no rules. Which would be a view quite disengaged from reality.
    This didn't happen in the workplace...

    Right, free speech means saying things that are agreeable to everyone.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #4
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    This didn't happen in the workplace...

    Right, free speech means saying things that are agreeable to everyone.
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/section/1

    But it's nice that you jumped on one subsection and thought that this applied to the whole legislative text...

    ... I also note that this guy is not exactly the poster boy for free speech and its merits.

    And it's not about "agreeable". It's about harassment and bullying. There's a world of a difference. You obviously never experienced such or you wouldn't be so callous and be so quick so allow everyone to pile abuse on other people.

    I mean, if I were to attack that particular law, I'd rather choose the points made here:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...iberty-central

    This guy? Nope. Wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
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  5. #5
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And it's not about "agreeable". It's about harassment and bullying. There's a world of a difference. You obviously never experienced such or you wouldn't be so callous and be so quick so allow everyone to pile abuse on other people.
    Kind of an ironic position for you to take, given your posting history and style, but whatever.

    This hardly qualifies as harassment anyway - if you don't like the messages someone's sending you (or posting on your wall), you can unfriend them or revoke their posting and even viewing privileges. If you don't like their retard youtube videos, don't go to their youtube channel or video page.

    It's absolutely about criminalizing saying things someone else doesn't like, and/or hurting feelings being against the law because it's really not possible to harass or bully someone online, for how trivial it is to block people and things you don't want to see.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  6. #6
    Odd though, looks like he'd be better served by receiving psychiatric care. Or maybe not
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #7
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    This has happened in the US too, FWIW... not the ridiculous "register your phone with the cops for years and no internet access" bit, but the jailing of an internet troll. Hard to feel sorry for someone doing something like that online without the use of anonymizing tools, though. If he wasn't such a dumbass, he'd still be out and about trolling dead teenagers.

    Which, now that I think about it, seems like a halfway decent idea, to protest the UK's retardery with only allowing socially agreeable speech. Hmm...
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Isn't the point of free speech that it also protects those who are not poster boys?

  9. #9
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Isn't the point of free speech that it also protects those who are not poster boys?
    I would say that it protects controversial subjects.

    Harassment? Not so much. Again, this is a very bad example to tout the merits of free speech. Every freedom ends where it encroaches on the rights of other people.

    To take an example out of another area of speech: Libel and slander are also not allowed. Lying also usually has quite negative consequences. In essence, there are quite a lot of instances where Free speech is curtailed for the simple reason that absolute liberty and freedom is a moronic concept when confronted with the reality of human beings.

    Again: Humanity and freedom simply does not work.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  10. #10
    meh. This is the country that banned westboro from spreading their shit to their shores. So this isn't a shocker. Appears they have a line that seperates expressing opposing opinions and simply attacking others for no other purpose than to cause pain and anguish. I'm with Aimless with how he needs to be handle, but thats coming from an American who knows how American jails work.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  11. #11
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Yeah, but where does criticism end and harassment begin? I mean in this case it's obvious, but where is the line? Not to mention humor and comedy, which is often very offensive. I don't think it's a good idea to make hurting someone's feelings is illegal.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Yeah, but where does criticism end and harassment begin? I mean in this case it's obvious, but where is the line?
    We have the same problem in the US. Especially in relation to veiled threats.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Yeah, but where does criticism end and harassment begin? I mean in this case it's obvious, but where is the line? Not to mention humor and comedy, which is often very offensive. I don't think it's a good idea to make hurting someone's feelings is illegal.
    I actually don't think it's obvious at all. The judicial ruling seems to be that, if one posts a public Facebook memorial to someone, all the comments have to be favorable to the person who died. Seems like a pretty deep limitation on free speech.

  14. #14
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    That's always the question: "Where is the line?" Does not mean that throwing out rules is a good idea just because the "line" is a rather fuzzy boundary.

    I mean, honestly, our codes of law would look rather differently if we had sharp "lines": We'd either have no rules at all or huge monsters of texts written for any and all contingencies.

    Thus this question is actually invalid. It does not serve any purpose. There are always fringe conditions which do not clearly fall into the area the law in question is meant for. That's why we have courts, lawyers, judges and, in some countries, juries. Because they are the ones deciding where the line is.

    Over here we also had several instances where a private citizen was awarded money from the courts because some TV jackass decided to make fun of them for no good reason - harassment and bullying is no joke. Again, if you think that this is something you can simply shrug off, then you obviously have never been victim to bullying. I'm telling you that it is very damaging.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  15. #15
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

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    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    I suppose the fact that his "purpose" wasn't to cause "distress or anxiety" isn't relevant to UK judicial proceedings. I know, expecting too much from the legal system again, silly me.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    his "purpose" wasn't to cause "distress or anxiety"
    It wasn't? But wait, there's more!

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/27/section/1
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

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    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It wasn't?
    No. The "purpose" of trolling is self-gratification. Some trolling necessarily involves causing "distress or anxiety" (and what a lame fucking metric that is anyway), but not all, and in any event, the distress or anxiety is not the purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    So, correct me if I'm wrong, but that means Captain Contra committed [potentially] thousands of violations of this act with his assorted lies? ((a)(iii)information which is false and known or believed to be false by the sender) Yeah, good law, UK. Telling your girlfriend a white lie on Facebook, criminal offense in Britain. I mean, they're crazy as hell over there with their legal system, but that's gotta be too far even for them. What am I reading wrong?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    So, correct me if I'm wrong, but that means Captain Contra committed [potentially] thousands of violations of this act with his assorted lies? ((a)(iii)information which is false and known or believed to be false by the sender) Yeah, good law, UK. Telling your girlfriend a white lie on Facebook, criminal offense in Britain. I mean, they're crazy as hell over there with their legal system, but that's gotta be too far even for them. What am I reading wrong?
    No so much not reading wrong as failing to read beyond the the first two clauses.

    [any person who does any of the things we mentioned before] is guilty of an offence if his purpose, or one of his purposes, in sending it is that it should, so far as falling within paragraph (a) or (b) above, cause distress or anxiety to the recipient or to any other person to whom he intends that it or its contents or nature should be communicated.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
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  20. #20
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Well, if you went to a memorial over here and behaved like a dick, you'd be lucky to escape with your hide intact, that I can tell you.

    Again, this guy is not really a good example for the merits of free speech. This is exactly what the law was about - non-ambiguous and quite clear.
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    Senior Member Draco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    This has happened in the US too, FWIW... not the ridiculous "register your phone with the cops for years and no internet access" bit, but the jailing of an internet troll.
    So an internet troll can go to jail in the US, yet those imbeciles from the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to "protest" at funerals of American soldiers who died in Iraq/Afghanistan ? Oh I love double standards. And here I thought Europe was the queen of all double standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post

    Again: Humanity and freedom simply does not work.
    lol yeah, so lets regulate the f* out of it. Going by the same argument, you could claim "Humanity and leadership simply does not work" just look at Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, that disgusting president of Iran, Saddam, the North Korean guy and the list goes on.

    This whole issue represents a deeper issue with the Western world and the culture of immorality/irrationality/lack of self respect, etc, that has become so common and acceptable. On that note though: I don't know what I find more abhorrent, the fact that this imbecile is going to prison because of something that he said or of the action(s) that put him there.

  22. #22
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    So an internet troll can go to jail in the US, yet those imbeciles from the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to "protest" at funerals of American soldiers who died in Iraq/Afghanistan ? Oh I love double standards. And here I thought Europe was the queen of all double standards.
    Nope, more than enough hypocrisy to go around. One of the things about the Westboro Baptist Church, though, is that the guy at the middle of it all is actually a lawyer, so... not all that surprising that he's able to manipulate the system in a way most internet trolls can't. And I was gonna link to the American guy who got jailed for online trolling ("cyber stalking"/"cyber bullying") but now everything on the search index is about this fat limey fuck. Oh well, gotta head out to work anyway. Stupid life.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    the guy at the middle of it all is actually a lawyer,
    disbarred lawyer. and most of the westboro family is made up of lawyers. they might be scum, but they aren't stupid scum.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I actually don't think it's obvious at all. The judicial ruling seems to be that, if one posts a public Facebook memorial to someone, all the comments have to be favorable to the person who died. Seems like a pretty deep limitation on free speech.
    Signing up for a memorial of someone you don't know, just to post offensive stuff, is definitely harassment (or at least general being a dick). But like I said, I don't want that to be outlawed. Just because I think he is a dick for harassing grieving parents, doesn't mean I want him in jail.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  25. #25
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    disbarred lawyer. and most of the westboro family is made up of lawyers. they might be scum, but they aren't stupid scum.
    Right, that's what it was. He's a [disbarred] lawyer, but his whole extended nut-bag family/"church" organization are lawyers in good standing. I actually vaguely remember something about one of the Westboro morons getting their jaw broken for protesting a (military?) funeral, and then winning a substantial chunk of money in a civil suit against the good Samaritan who shut one of them up for a while. Once again, knowing the law triumphs over what's fair and just.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Signing up for a memorial of someone you don't know, just to post offensive stuff, is definitely harassment (or at least general being a dick). But like I said, I don't want that to be outlawed. Just because I think he is a dick for harassing grieving parents, doesn't mean I want him in jail.
    Doesn't harassment need to involve repeat occurrences? If I launch off an explicative-laced, pejorative at someone once, I'm just a prick who called someone a name. It's only harassment when I follow them and keep calling them names, right?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  26. #26
    It's not about the merits of free speech, it's about the principle of free speech. The idea that it's truly free. You don't have to have someone you don't like at a private funeral, but that doesn't stop them from taking out a newspaper ad blasting your dead relative.

  27. #27
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    It's not about the merits of free speech, it's about the principle of free speech. The idea that it's truly free. You don't have to have someone you don't like at a private funeral, but that doesn't stop them from taking out a newspaper ad blasting your dead relative.
    There no such thing as free speech. That's a myth you keep perpetrating. Libel and slander is not allowed. Lying will get you in hot water quite a lot of times as well. I recall that the police also takes a dim view on death and bomb threats.

    Yes, it's a great idea. It's also like pure capitalism, pure communism or any "pure" ideology: It fails to take human nature into account. And as such, it is doomed as an ideal. It. does. not. work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draco View Post
    lol yeah, so lets regulate the f* out of it. Going by the same argument, you could claim "Humanity and leadership simply does not work" just look at Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, that disgusting president of Iran, Saddam, the North Korean guy and the list goes on.

    This whole issue represents a deeper issue with the Western world and the culture of immorality/irrationality/lack of self respect, etc, that has become so common and acceptable. On that note though: I don't know what I find more abhorrent, the fact that this imbecile is going to prison because of something that he said or of the action(s) that put him there.
    Y'know, one could argue that your "culture of immorality/irrationality/lack of self respect" actually stems from the lack of proper boundaries.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Libel and slander is not allowed.
    Because someone is actively harming you socially. I could see if he was harassing her in person, but like Cain mentioned its pretty easy to ignore someone online now that the tools are available to do so. It also takes a certain, special, type of person who would go to a website where they know there will be a video that is going to offend them, watch this offensive video from start to finish, and then complain that they were offended, and that this action constitutes harassment. Or does the idea that it merely exists offend/harass them?
    . . .

  29. #29
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Because someone is actively harming you socially. I could see if he was harassing her in person, but like Cain mentioned its pretty easy to ignore someone online now that the tools are available to do so. It also takes a certain, special, type of person who would go to a website where they know there will be a video that is going to offend them, watch this offensive video from start to finish, and then complain that they were offended, and that this action constitutes harassment. Or does the idea that it merely exists offend/harass them?
    Way to miss the point. I was responding to Dread's statement that Free Speech is an achievable ideal. There's a reason why I wrote more than that one single sentence, y'know?

    But, go on, address points I wasn't really making by ripping sentences out of context.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I was responding to Dread's statement that Free Speech is an achievable ideal.
    Well if you are going to debate there is no such thing as Free Speech, go ahead. Maybe its going from German to English, but debating that Free Speech does not exist is rather silly, as it does exist as a concept, which is what it is, its just that no government practices it fully. This is rather different than claiming that The Tooth Fairy doesn't exist, as while we do have a concept of what a Tooth Fairy would consist of, its failure to be experienced isn't predicated upon human failings or practices, and is supposed to exist as more than a concept (for instance as a tangible being).
    . . .

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