Nationalism, Patriotism, Consumerism

[GGT]

What do those terms mean to you, as consumers?To what degree would you make or change your behaviors....based on helping your nation and fellow citizens prosper...or trying not to promote other nations from exploiting their own?Examples: would you refuse to buy the latest iPhone, knowing Apple has outsourced 500,000 jobs to China just to make the product more affordable to Americans? Would you refuse to buy imported produce or t-shirts from Mexico or Guatemala, athletic wear or sports shoes from Taiwan or India, knowing the cheaper prices reflect "slave labor" wages? Can you walk through an Ikea, Target, Walmart, Kmart, or Pier One Imports...marveling at the low prices....and not have some gut feeling when looking at the tags saying "produced in China/Taiwan/Mexico" or whatever?

[RandBlade]

I don't care at all where things are made.

I do not have any gut feeling about made in China/Taiwan/Mexico/whatever and find those that do no different to racism.

I do care if relevant about conditions however.

[GGT]

I don't care at all where things are made.

I do not have any gut feeling about made in China/Taiwan/Mexico/whatever and find those that do no different to racism.

I do care if relevant about conditions however.

What's racist about any of this?

When a country is trying to recover after a recession/depression, and jobs are needed for millions of people....they can't all be filled by the domestic, non-transferrable service jobs. There's a push for in-sourcing instead of outsourcing, encouraging companies to "repatriate" profits and re-invest in American jobs. I was wondering how many here would spark that demand by changing their buying habits? As a sort of nationalism or patriotism (ie, picking a Toyota made in Ohio, knowing that's employing Americans and sustaining entire towns.)

The SOTU address by POTUS mentioned MasterLock and a group of US companies making the decided effort to move some operations back to the states, incentives for Made in the USA, getting corporations and community colleges to partner in job-training. Those companies are "consumers" too...of resources and human capital.

Apple made like a gazillion dollars in revenue and profit the last quarter, partly by outsourcing assembly line work to China---where they house workers in dormitories and make them work 12 hour shifts on a cup of tea and a biscuit, according to OG's link.

[RandBlade]

I would draw the line at anything at all.

What's racist about any of this?

What else do you call it when you're discriminating based on race?

You may want to justify it as protecting locals (though it doesn't) but that's what all racists do.

[GGT]

I would draw the line at anything at all.
What else do you call it when you're discriminating based on race?

You may want to justify it as protecting locals (though it doesn't) but that's what all racists do.

Bullshit. Some might call nationalism "protectionist", but that's not racism. In the event of an emergency, apply your own oxygen masks before attempting to assist others.

You're an employer, Rand. You need local customers with a demand for your product, but also the ability to pay. That means you can use local manufacturers, distributors, vendors (that give people a paycheck), and that might improve your business demand. Isn't that better in the long run?

[Loki]

Bullshit. Some might call nationalism "protectionist", but that's not racism. In the event of an emergency, apply your own oxygen masks before attempting to assist others.

The better analogy is there's a minor crash leading to some discomfort. People might feel a little bit better right away by putting on an oxygen mask. But if a sufficient amount of people put it on, a circuit blows and the entire plane blows up. That's what you're calling for. The only consequence of large-scale protectionism is everyone (on average) being worse off.

[LittleFuzzy]

Bullshit. Some might call *economic* nationalism "protectionist", but that's not racism.

Might? MIGHT?

[Aimless]

What else do you call it when you're discriminating based on race?

wait, what??

[GGT]

wait, what??

Yeah, I didn't understand the racism card, either.

It's like saying national energy independence is "racism" if we buy less oil from the middle east.

[Loki]

Slave labor wages in Taiwan? Really? As for your main question, I don't make any effort to buy "American", as it makes no good economic nor moral sense.

[Ominous Gamer]

knowing Apple has outsourced 500,000 jobs to China just to make the product more affordable to Americans?

Not so much about it being affordable, I would hardly call any apple product "affordable". US manufacturing isn't designed to compete with foreign countries. Not that I think thats a bad thing, some of the stuff expected of those poor saps is saddening

Apple had redesigned the iPhone’s screen at the last minute, forcing an assembly line overhaul. New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight.

A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

“The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/bu...pagewanted=all


------

and Ikea does a lot of local good around here, and is always a pleasant experience when shopping. The food is cheap yet awesome, and they seem to always be offering it for free.

Target and Walmart on the other hand, its easy enough to see how they are cutting corners in the customer service department. Which sucks, cause that used to be the only thing that Target had over WalMart.

[Asmodian]

quality vs. price is all that matters when purchasing stuff, I will even go out of my way to by US made product if that is the best option and there are some things that are worth it to order from the US still.

[Flixy]

quality vs. price is all that matters when purchasing stuff, I will even go out of my way to by US made product if that is the best option and there are some things that are worth it to order from the US still.

Same here, but not for US stuff of course. Things that are better from around here, I buy that, but not because it's Dutch, because it's better. Which is also why I buy, for example, Belgian beer and Italian olive oil.

[Hazir]

Same here, but not for US stuff of course. Things that are better from around here, I buy that, but not because it's Dutch, because it's better. Which is also why I buy, for example, Belgian beer and Italian olive oil.

Just out of curiousity, which products would I have to think of ?

[Flixy]

Just out of curiousity, which products would I have to think of ?

You mean Dutch? Cheese, apple juice from Zeeland (Appelaere), and I usually buy fresh fish on the market in Zeeland which is mostly from local fishers, and fresh vegetables. Bolussen (the cake) from the local baker instead of the supermarket (not locally made) because the supermarket ones are disgusting. For me Belgium is also local, and I like Belgian chocolate, beer, things like that. Oh, and north sea shrimp are way better, too. There's probably more, but I'd have to think about it.

[Illusions]

Target and Walmart on the other hand, its easy enough to see how they are cutting corners in the customer service department. Which sucks, cause that used to be the only thing that Target had over WalMart.

There is a cost to keeping prices low, when the cost to produce them goes up, customers have less money to spend (or aren't willing to spend as much as previous years), and thus the workers have to do more with less hours, manpower, and other resources. That and you can not imagine the number of people who will be furious when an item that cost $X last week now costs $X + $1, and will still be furious regardless of logical explanation.

[Asmodian]

Such as?

Well I bought my alienware laptop from the US store, yes I know that most of components are made elsewhere but I assume they put it together in the US. In any case for reasons unknown you can get a more advanced pc for half the price vs. european dell store. The Dell tries to control it by not shipping to Europe, but you can purchase forwarding from myus.com and still save about 2k and you have to call them to convince them to accept a european credit card which involves speaking to several retarded people but eventually it works. Similar thing with steam games I buy them via amazon.com downloadable and then enter the code in to my steam to avoid geographic price discrimination. It defenatly should be made illigal for them to do this btw, I can understand shiped good costing more based on region because of higher employee costs, storage and shipping etc but higher costs for downloadable content based on region makes me want to pirate stuff instead.

[RandBlade]

Such as?

[Lebanese Dragon]

I would say as long as it's voluntary, then i dont' care where it's made, or the conditions for that matter. I feel those conditions will naturally rise as that industry becomes increasingly popular in that territory, and competition between businesses raises standards. To not buy, would shut down that business, and deny all those who people, who that was the optimal choice for, that job opportunity.


On where stuff is made:

My philosophy is a bit more complicated on this subject matter. I view it like a game of Risk. Perhaps buying this trinket from china is the best bang for your buck, but it also strengthens china, and if china is my enemy, then i view any dollar given to them as negative dollars for me, and all my allies. However, if i could buy from an ally then I would much rather do that.

The idea of just buy what is the best price falls under the premise of peace time, of it doesn't matter who you strengthen as long as your maximizing your own strength. This is not always true.

[RandBlade]

Increased trade leads to peace.

If we don't buy from China then they have nothing to lose being our enemy. Think of it as costs versus benefits? What's the cost of fighting, what's the benefit? The more we trade, the higher the cost and the less the benefit.

[Loki]

Increased trade leads to peace.

If we don't buy from China then they have nothing to lose being our enemy. Think of it as costs versus benefits? What's the cost of fighting, what's the benefit? The more we trade, the higher the cost and the less the benefit.

The effect is far from definitive. Numerous studies on the subject, and most find a moderate effect at best. Newer studies look at different types of trade. For example, two countries can trade a lot, but easily find new markets for imports/exports in the event of a war. The real effect of trade is when both countries can't easily replace their trading partners.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I pick consumerism.

[Lebanese Dragon]

Increased trade leads to peace.

If we don't buy from China then they have nothing to lose being our enemy. Think of it as costs versus benefits? What's the cost of fighting, what's the benefit? The more we trade, the higher the cost and the less the benefit.

I can buy that argument.. but when it comes to wars where winner takes all, a world war. I wouldn't trust any sort of trade relationship as any ultimate protection.

[Loki]

What does "winner take all" have to do with world wars?

[Hazir]

But Wiggin is sort of right, I got side-tracked, but I was curious about non-food products. And I can't really come up with aan end-user product made in Holland. I could think of a lot of capital goods made in Holland, but not anything I would buy for my home.

[earthJoker]

I usually try to buy things which aren't transported around the globe, but not for the reasons of the OP.

[wiggin]

I usually try to buy things which aren't transported around the globe, but not for the reasons of the OP.

What are your reasons? If you're about to make an energy argument, you might want to think again. The energy (and carbon, etc.) cost of transportation by sea is a tiny fraction of total transportation costs - most costs are incurred in domestic distribution networks. Those big container ships are pretty cheap from a number of perspectives.

[Hazir]

What are your reasons? If you're about to make an energy argument, you might want to think again. The energy (and carbon, etc.) cost of transportation by sea is a tiny fraction of total transportation costs - most costs are incurred in domestic distribution networks. Those big container ships are pretty cheap from a number of perspectives.

I think you will find that few of those big containerships ever find their way into the Swiss Alps.

[Aimless]

I think you will find that few of those big containerships ever find their way into the Swiss Alps.

I would SO watch that movie It'd be like Sahara, only it'd be called "Alps" Matthew Mcwhatshisface would have to reprise his fantastic role of course.





I'm a nationalist, so I buy lots of clothes and only those made in Bangladesh. No, that's a lie. There is one Bengali brand that I like, and I occasionally try to buy clothes and other fabricy things from them.

Tbh I try to restrict my spending to second-hand goods if they're expensive to buy new. So I'm not the one saving those poor Chinese workers with my cash. I spend most of my money on paying bills, and that's hardly out of nationalism or patriotism Much of the remainder of my spending is on food, where I'm disinclined to pay a premium for Swedish food, ecological food, fair trade etc. Nevertheless, most of my food does still end up being of Swedish origin.

[wiggin]

I think you will find that few of those big containerships ever find their way into the Swiss Alps.

So? They don't make it to Kansas either. The basic point stands. I imagine that very few people in either Switzerland or Kansas can keep their buying to items made in a 150 mile radius or so (roughly the diameter of Switzerland); I assume eJ has a somewhat more expansive definition of 'not transported around the globe' than 'not transported across the Swiss border'. His response was quite reasonable (I assume he meant air travel; he's right, there the calculation is far more complex).