No words can express the horror of this pension system.

[agamemnus]

Edit: actually, I think this system is used across the country.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,6677861.story

Approaching retirement, Ventura County Chief Executive Marty Robinson was earning $228,000 a year.

To boost her pension, which would be based on her final salary, Robinson cashed out nearly $34,000 in unused vacation pay, an $11,000 bonus for having earned a graduate degree and more than $24,000 in extra pension benefits the county owed her.

By the time she walked out the door last year, her pension was calculated at $272,000 a year — for life.

Robinson, 62, is among a group of public employees who have increased their retirement paychecks by adding such things as vacation time, educational incentives, car allowances and bonuses to their final salaries.

[Dreadnaught]

Pension spiking is a huge issue. Though I do support paying people for untaken vacation days.

Unless of course the union has negotiated European levels of vacation days. Which is likely.

Rick Perry just did a similar thing in Texas. Pensions are pyramid schemes whose rules are inevitably rigged by insiders.

[Lewkowski]

Pension spiking is a huge issue. Though I do support paying people for untaken vacation days.

Unless of course the union has negotiated European levels of vacation days. Which is likely.

Rick Perry just did a similar thing in Texas. Pensions are pyramid schemes whose rules are inevitably rigged by insiders.

Yeah pay them but don't allow it to be calculated into the final pension formula.

Or better yet... completely do away with pensions. They are dinosaurs.

[CitizenCain]

"By the time she walked out the door last year, her pension was calculated at $272,000 a year — for life."

Think I found a useful loophole here...

[Dreadnaught]

Whoever thinks of stopping the [pension system] before it achieves its goals, I will give him ten bullets in the chest. -- Union Arafat

[GGT]

Edit: actually, I think this system is used across the country.

No, it's not.

"Robinson, 62, is among a group of public employees who have increased their retirement paychecks by adding such things as vacation time, educational incentives, car allowances and bonuses to their final salaries."

Be fair, and mention that private pensions do the same thing. Difference being that not too many workers have private pensions these days.

Instead, that benefit should be called Golden Parachutes for CEOs and upper management. They can demand that kind of largesse after only a couple of months on the job, expect their legal contract will be honored, and presume future shareholders will keep paying.

When private companies and CEOs do this, it's considered savvy contract negotiations. No one bats an eyelash when an executive walks away with half salary/stock options, guaranteed percentage of future corporate earnings, lifetime corporate gym or private Country Club membership, and use of corporate private jets....after a few months on the job.

When public workers try the same thing, based at least on years of time worked, it's suddenly a nefarious thing?



Guns don't kill people....

[CitizenCain]

When literally a few thousand C-level execs are able to abuse their power, you get a severe outbreak of vaginal sand. When the hundreds of thousands of public-sector employees do the same thing, you try to give them a pass because they're not j00s.

Fucking pathetic.

[Being]

When literally a few thousand C-level execs are able to abuse their power, you get a severe outbreak of vaginal sand. When the hundreds of thousands of public-sector employees do the same thing, you try to give them a pass because they're not j00s.

Fucking pathetic.

I don't understand your use of the term j00s. Would you mind explaining that? I get the idea it doesn't mean the same as jews but it's hard to tell and makes your posts seem inane when you use it.

[wiggin]

I don't understand your use of the term j00s. Would you mind explaining that? I get the idea it doesn't mean the same as jews but it's hard to tell and makes your posts seem inane when you use it.

CC likes to equate criticism of a large number of groups - notably bankers, the rich, etc. - as antisemitism. He does this a lot to GGT since it bothers her. I think you can safely ignore it and stick to a substantive discussion. See here: http://www.theworldforgotten.com/showthread.php?t=2255

[CitizenCain]

CC likes to equate criticism of a large number of groups - notably bankers, the rich, etc. - as antisemitism. He does this a lot to GGT since it bothers her.

Or he does it only to GGT, since she's the only one around here who seems to blame the world's problems on the "bankers and accountants and math quants" and other synonyms for "Jew" you'll hear in your average White Power/anti-Semitic hate speech.

[wiggin]

I don't get it... don't most pensions using a moving average of the last 5 or so years to avoid this kind of issue? At least that's how I thought they were structured - then cashing in a bunch of vacation time/etc. wouldn't appreciably move the dial, since it's split over 5 years.

[LittleFuzzy]

I don't get it... don't most pensions using a moving average of the last 5 or so years to avoid this kind of issue? At least that's how I thought they were structured - then cashing in a bunch of vacation time/etc. wouldn't appreciably move the dial, since it's split over 5 years.

Depends on how much you have saved. I know my father's planning on spiking with his accumulated vacation as mentioned in the original post and even if it's averaged over five years it'll still amount to more than a few percentage points increase. Further, I know that his employing state office actually prefer that to what he could do, demand all of that accumulated time be turned into a lump sum payment. Worse for the State over the long term of course, but way easier for his employing office to deal with as an event.

[agamemnus]

Further, I know that his employing state office actually prefer that to what he could do, demand all of that accumulated time be turned into a lump sum payment. Worse for the State over the long term of course, but way easier for his employing office to deal with as an event.

*faceplanet*

[RandBlade]

Two simple solutions:

Holidays for us have an annual allowance - use it or lose it. Shouldn't have five years of vacation stored up.
Abolish final salary pensions. Ideally I'd just have defined contribution plans and abolish all defined benefit ones altogether.

[wiggin]

Holidays for us have an annual allowance - use it or lose it. Shouldn't have five years of vacation stored up.

I actually don't fully agree. I think it's a bit ridiculous when people have oodles of vacation saved up and retire with a huge chunk of money - obviously it's best for employee productivity for vacation to be taken during work and not as a retirement present. But having some flexibility built into a vacation day system is worthwhile - allowing X amount of rollover is reasonable to allow for people who know they will need extra vacation days the next year (say, for some family events, or a wedding/honeymoon, or whatever). Remember that in the US you might only be talking about 10 or 15 days a year, so being able to intelligently allocate them across a few years is not an unreasonable request. There are simple ways to prevent abuse - have accrued vacation expire on a rolling basis (18 months? 24? 36?), giving you some flexibility but not an inordinate amount. It can be quite frustrating to have extra vacation days one year, but far too few the next.

I fully agree about 'use it or lose it' wrt sick days, though. Allowing people to save up sick days and 'cash' them in later just encourages people to come to work when they're sick, which is a bad idea all around. Modest overconsumption of sick days is better than drastic underconsumption.

[Loki]

I fully agree about 'use it or lose it' wrt sick days, though. Allowing people to save up sick days and 'cash' them in later just encourages people to come to work when they're sick, which is a bad idea all around. Modest overconsumption of sick days is better than drastic underconsumption.

The very concept of sick days makes no sense to me; all it does it encourage people to lie about when they're sick. If someone is legitimately sick (i.e. they have a note from a doctor), they should be excused. If they're not sick, they shouldn't be able to call in sick just because they have sick days remaining.

[wiggin]

Is it worth the trip to the doctor if you just have a nasty cold? I think employers and employees should stick to a standard of conduct where the employee is expected to stay home as needed but no more, and the employer is expected to believe the employee when they need the time off.

Giving a certain number of sick days allows for alternative options in the employment contract when they are exceeded due to serious illness - family leave, short/long term disability, etc. It's just a useful counter for dealing with the legalities.

[Loki]

Is it worth the trip to the doctor if you just have a nasty cold? I think employers and employees should stick to a standard of conduct where the employee is expected to stay home as needed but no more, and the employer is expected to believe the employee when they need the time off.

Giving a certain number of sick days allows for alternative options in the employment contract when they are exceeded due to serious illness - family leave, short/long term disability, etc. It's just a useful counter for dealing with the legalities.

Or you could just give workers an extra 5 days off and let them use those days how ever they want.

[Khendraja'aro]

Is it worth the trip to the doctor if you just have a nasty cold? I think employers and employees should stick to a standard of conduct where the employee is expected to stay home as needed but no more, and the employer is expected to believe the employee when they need the time off.

Giving a certain number of sick days allows for alternative options in the employment contract when they are exceeded due to serious illness - family leave, short/long term disability, etc. It's just a useful counter for dealing with the legalities.

In Germany, it depends on the kind of company. Some companies demand a trip to the doctor right from the first day (usually those are the slave-driver companies like callcenters, i.e. low end jobs).

More usual is the kind, where you can call in sick for one or two days and not having to go the doctor. If you're ill for three days or more, to the doctor you go. And if you abuse the system (i.e. being absent for one day on a regular basis), the company can either tighten the rule for you or even demand a trip to the Amtsarzt (a special kind of doctor whose sole role it is to determine if you're fit to work just for such cases).

[Aimless]

Jesus christ just use the average of the last ten years or something.

[RandBlade]

I agree with some limited flexibility of rolling over, but not five years. Furthermore even if it is allowed, it should not count as "income" for the purposes of final salary as it wasn't salaried income, it was exceptional. They would not have been able to use rolled over allowances again next year. Very simple fix to exclude this from calculations, or use some sort of average.

Where my dad used to work (private sector) he said there was a big problem of people seeking and getting promotions when opportunities arose, then retiring, as they had final salary pensions in place still.

[RandBlade]

In the UK anyone sick <1 week 'self-certifies' (no doctor), but there's no statutory sick pay for first three days of absence. So we often have problems with people faking sickness, but it's an issue from the view of struggling without them as at least they're not paid for it. No number of sick days, but if people are unreliable then it can be a disciplinary issue.

As a 7 day a week business I also can chart what day of a week people call in sick. Most commonly a problem on Saturday's. Showed one of the worst offenders a bar chart once, in 6 months of employment he'd been "sick" on 12 Saturdays and just 1 Monday (he was scheduled for every Sat and Mon). Said if it continued it'd be taken as a disciplinary issue, suddenly no more Saturday Night Fever.

[Lewkowski]

In the UK anyone sick <1 week 'self-certifies' (no doctor), but there's no statutory sick pay for first three days of absence. So we often have problems with people faking sickness, but it's an issue from the view of struggling without them as at least they're not paid for it. No number of sick days, but if people are unreliable then it can be a disciplinary issue.

As a 7 day a week business I also can chart what day of a week people call in sick. Most commonly a problem on Saturday's. Showed one of the worst offenders a bar chart once, in 6 months of employment he'd been "sick" on 12 Saturdays and just 1 Monday (he was scheduled for every Sat and Mon). Said if it continued it'd be taken as a disciplinary issue, suddenly no more Saturday Night Fever.

Huge problem in the states called FMLA. Get a doctor's note for back pain or migraines and then poof you've got the Friday Monday Leave Act.

[Aimless]

Why was he so often sick on saturdays?

[Nessus]

Water-ethanol compounds

[RandBlade]

Water-ethanol compounds

A very good explanation, couldn't put it better myself.

[Aimless]

Water-ethanol compounds

Did RB tell you? Did the guy tell RB?

[Nessus]

Did RB tell you? Did the guy tell RB?

Employers, businesses, don't have to use science to found their decisions, it's possible the guy had some form of migraine which inflamed mostly around the week-end for this reason or that, but it's several orders of magnitude more likely the guy liked to go out drinking on Fridays when most people do.

If I were Gregory House, I'd want more information; if I'm Scrooge McDuck, as Randy is, I don't.

[RandBlade]

Employers, businesses, don't have to use science to found their decisions, it's possible the guy had some form of migraine which inflamed mostly around the week-end for this reason or that, but it's several orders of magnitude more likely the guy liked to go out drinking on Fridays when most people do.

If I were Gregory House, I'd want more information; if I'm Scrooge McDuck, as Randy is, I don't.

Well said again, except I think Gregory "everyone lies" House would have been quite happy to leap straight to water-ethanol compounds too. Never been called Scrooge McDuck before, I loved Ducktails

[earthJoker]

^^ Friday, Friday, fun fun fun, and the aftermath