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  1. #1

    Default Goldman Sachs and conflict of interest

    TODAY is my last day at Goldman Sachs. After almost 12 years at the firm — first as a summer intern while at Stanford, then in New York for 10 years, and now in London — I believe I have worked here long enough to understand the trajectory of its culture, its people and its identity. And I can honestly say that the environment now is as toxic and destructive as I have ever seen it.

    To put the problem in the simplest terms, the interests of the client continue to be sidelined in the way the firm operates and thinks about making money. Goldman Sachs is one of the world’s largest and most important investment banks and it is too integral to global finance to continue to act this way. The firm has veered so far from the place I joined right out of college that I can no longer in good conscience say that I identify with what it stands for.

    It might sound surprising to a skeptical public, but culture was always a vital part of Goldman Sachs’s success. It revolved around teamwork, integrity, a spirit of humility, and always doing right by our clients. The culture was the secret sauce that made this place great and allowed us to earn our clients’ trust for 143 years. It wasn’t just about making money; this alone will not sustain a firm for so long. It had something to do with pride and belief in the organization. I am sad to say that I look around today and see virtually no trace of the culture that made me love working for this firm for many years. I no longer have the pride, or the belief.

    But this was not always the case. For more than a decade I recruited and mentored candidates through our grueling interview process. I was selected as one of 10 people (out of a firm of more than 30,000) to appear on our recruiting video, which is played on every college campus we visit around the world. In 2006 I managed the summer intern program in sales and trading in New York for the 80 college students who made the cut, out of the thousands who applied.

    I knew it was time to leave when I realized I could no longer look students in the eye and tell them what a great place this was to work.

    When the history books are written about Goldman Sachs, they may reflect that the current chief executive officer, Lloyd C. Blankfein, and the president, Gary D. Cohn, lost hold of the firm’s culture on their watch. I truly believe that this decline in the firm’s moral fiber represents the single most serious threat to its long-run survival.

    Over the course of my career I have had the privilege of advising two of the largest hedge funds on the planet, five of the largest asset managers in the United States, and three of the most prominent sovereign wealth funds in the Middle East and Asia. My clients have a total asset base of more than a trillion dollars. I have always taken a lot of pride in advising my clients to do what I believe is right for them, even if it means less money for the firm. This view is becoming increasingly unpopular at Goldman Sachs. Another sign that it was time to leave.

    How did we get here? The firm changed the way it thought about leadership. Leadership used to be about ideas, setting an example and doing the right thing. Today, if you make enough money for the firm (and are not currently an ax murderer) you will be promoted into a position of influence.

    What are three quick ways to become a leader? a) Execute on the firm’s “axes,” which is Goldman-speak for persuading your clients to invest in the stocks or other products that we are trying to get rid of because they are not seen as having a lot of potential profit. b) “Hunt Elephants.” In English: get your clients — some of whom are sophisticated, and some of whom aren’t — to trade whatever will bring the biggest profit to Goldman. Call me old-fashioned, but I don’t like selling my clients a product that is wrong for them. c) Find yourself sitting in a seat where your job is to trade any illiquid, opaque product with a three-letter acronym.

    Today, many of these leaders display a Goldman Sachs culture quotient of exactly zero percent. I attend derivatives sales meetings where not one single minute is spent asking questions about how we can help clients. It’s purely about how we can make the most possible money off of them. If you were an alien from Mars and sat in on one of these meetings, you would believe that a client’s success or progress was not part of the thought process at all.

    It makes me ill how callously people talk about ripping their clients off. Over the last 12 months I have seen five different managing directors refer to their own clients as “muppets,” sometimes over internal e-mail. Even after the S.E.C., Fabulous Fab, Abacus, God’s work, Carl Levin, Vampire Squids? No humility? I mean, come on. Integrity? It is eroding. I don’t know of any illegal behavior, but will people push the envelope and pitch lucrative and complicated products to clients even if they are not the simplest investments or the ones most directly aligned with the client’s goals? Absolutely. Every day, in fact.

    It astounds me how little senior management gets a basic truth: If clients don’t trust you they will eventually stop doing business with you. It doesn’t matter how smart you are.

    These days, the most common question I get from junior analysts about derivatives is, “How much money did we make off the client?” It bothers me every time I hear it, because it is a clear reflection of what they are observing from their leaders about the way they should behave. Now project 10 years into the future: You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the junior analyst sitting quietly in the corner of the room hearing about “muppets,” “ripping eyeballs out” and “getting paid” doesn’t exactly turn into a model citizen.

    When I was a first-year analyst I didn’t know where the bathroom was, or how to tie my shoelaces. I was taught to be concerned with learning the ropes, finding out what a derivative was, understanding finance, getting to know our clients and what motivated them, learning how they defined success and what we could do to help them get there.

    My proudest moments in life — getting a full scholarship to go from South Africa to Stanford University, being selected as a Rhodes Scholar national finalist, winning a bronze medal for table tennis at the Maccabiah Games in Israel, known as the Jewish Olympics — have all come through hard work, with no shortcuts. Goldman Sachs today has become too much about shortcuts and not enough about achievement. It just doesn’t feel right to me anymore.

    I hope this can be a wake-up call to the board of directors. Make the client the focal point of your business again. Without clients you will not make money. In fact, you will not exist. Weed out the morally bankrupt people, no matter how much money they make for the firm. And get the culture right again, so people want to work here for the right reasons. People who care only about making money will not sustain this firm — or the trust of its clients — for very much longer.

    Greg Smith is resigning today as a Goldman Sachs executive director and head of the firm’s United States equity derivatives business in Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/op...3&pagewanted=1

    The guy who wrote this might or might not have an axe to grind, and it's possible that the behavior he's seen isn't indicative of the entire company, but I think there's plenty of evidence out there that he's not describing a few isolated incidents. There are two issues here I don't understand.

    1. Is the behavior in question not a conflict of interest? Surely Goldman is legally required to tell their clients that they're pitching them financial instruments that Goldman possesses? I'm also not sure where the line between legality and serving your client is when it comes to telling them that you're offloading the product you're recommending them.

    2. Why the heck do these clients stick with Goldman? It's been pretty clear for a while that Goldman serves its own immediate interest before it does the interest of the client (and I would argue its own long-term interest). Surely the proper move for the clients would be to abandon ship? Why do I get the sense that companies are with Goldman because saying that you work with Goldman looks good not because it actually helps?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #2
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Regarding #1, when you're as big as GS, you own some of everything. So the right product that would be the best fit for the client probably comes with the same disclaimer as whatever they're trying to dump.

    Regarding #2, people are stupid. Having money doesn't change that.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  3. #3
    It's not clear that Goldman bothers to tell its clients that it possesses the products in question. This reminds me of doctors who try to get you to take x-rays in their own facilities. Well gee, it's not like they might be doing this to help their own bottom-line. At the very least, I'd want to know there is a conflict of interest, and decide whether the move is still worth it by myself.

    Then perhaps using the term muppets to describe them isn't all that inaccurate.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #4
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    Yeah, the whole "muppets" thing was the least objectionable to me. I've called some of my clients so much worse, and always because it was true. Of course, the idea that your clients are morons, because they're your clients should be much more concerning to GS.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  5. #5
    http://dealbreaker.com/2012/03/jewis...ext-challenge/

    Comment #33 sums up the situation pretty well.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6
    Which one is number 33?
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  7. #7
    I see numbers, but if for some reason you don't:

    "That’s, like, your job as a salesman"

    But they're not, like, a "salesman". They're an investment advisor. And it is not just a customer who is subject to "caveat emptor", it is an advisory client, and as it turns out, there are legal differences that are, like, kind of important. As Goldman has already found out, to the tune of several hundred million dollars.

    With an advisory client, you have to put the client's interests first, ahead of the firm's. How does that work with zero-sum products like options? Well, let's see – if the firm has reason to believe that the option is likely to be a losing prospect for the client, then selling it to the client would be putting the firm's interests over the client. If it looks likely to be a winning prospect for the client, that would be fine, but then the firm loses money, so why would they sell it to them? In short, if a zero-sum product is being sold to a client, I see it as being highly likely that the client is being taken advantage of – something which is not just a bad business practice, but illegal.

    I find it telling that Matt – a Goldman veteran – goes the whole article without demonstrating any awareness of the difference between a customer and an advisory client, and demonstrates no knowledge of the fiduciary duty standard. If that is true of Goldman as a company, I would say that Greg's observations are likely spot-on.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    1. Is the behavior in question not a conflict of interest? Surely Goldman is legally required to tell their clients that they're pitching them financial instruments that Goldman possesses? I'm also not sure where the line between legality and serving your client is when it comes to telling them that you're offloading the product you're recommending them.
    Remember the senate hearings where Blankfein et al were asked to defend their involvement in the financial crisis, because they'd created those credit-default swaps for one client, while selling bad MBS to others? They were grilled on conflict of interest and fiduciary duty to clients on both sides of the 'trade', but insisted they'd done nothing wrong, even though GS also bought CDS (and made profit) on the sub-prime MBS they sold....

  9. #9
    [QUOTE= Is the behavior in question not a conflict of interest? Surely Goldman is legally required to tell their clients that they're pitching them financial instruments that Goldman possesses? I'm also not sure where the line between legality and serving your client is when it comes to telling them that you're offloading the product you're recommending them.[/QUOTE]

    Are you sure that the client is not informed, I bet among the documentation that the client signs there is something that warns him of possible conflict of interest, pretty standard document. Most clients just sign however and don't read.

  10. #10

  11. #11
    Before someone starts citing professional asshole Matt Taibbi, I think it's worth noting that Goldman's financial products salespeople are not their proprietary trading people. IE, two people are two people.

    Now, if Goldman were to make it a policy for those branches to be intricately linked, that would turn the company into a sophisticated pump-and-dump operation. But there are laws against that, and the closest they seemed to have gotten to that was the Abbacus investigation. And yet, were this a more widespread problem, the SEC would have pretty easily discovered this their investigation.

    That said, the perception of this kind of operation can hurt client relations. But it's important to remember that Goldman is selling products and packaging deals for very sophisticated clients, who are experienced and have their own teams analyzing every detail of a potential deal.

    Long story short, given what we've seen so far, it's a gross oversimplification to consider Goldman as some kind of monolithic entity who is eating and shitting into the same mouth. At least not yet.

  12. #12
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    And yet, were this a more widespread problem, the SEC would have pretty easily discovered this their investigation.
    A fine of over half a billion dollars says pretty much everything you need to hear.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  13. #13
    Henry Goldman III: These Are The Two Trends That Ruined Wall Street

    Yesterday, Business Insider interviewed Henry Goldman III, the great grandson of Goldman Sachs founder Marcus Goldman, to get his take on Greg Smith's incendiary resignation letter in the New York Times.

    His response: Smith's assessment was accurate.

    But Goldman had even more to say.

    In a follow-up email, Goldman told Business Insider the two forces he believes have caused Wall Street to become unhinged: an obsession with share price, and a departure from normal securities.

    "Stock ownership of investment banks as opposed to the old private partnership structure created a completely different system of incentives for firms such as Goldman, Sachs.

    "In addition when bankers, including Goldman, Sachs, started peddling investment "Products" as opposed to equities and debt instruments it dramatically changed the system of compensation on the street. Whenever an account manager mentions "Products" my advice is to put your track shoes on, turn around and run as fast as you can for the exit."

    Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/...#ixzz1pPQ4kwZ7



    GOLDMAN HEIR SPEAKS: Greg Smith Was Right, They Ruined My Great-Grandfather's Company
    http://www.businessinsider.com/henry...-letter-2012-3

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Thanks for reinforcing what was already said. Goldman will steal the shirt off your book and strangle you with it if you're not an expert. Of course if you're an expert, it's not always clear why you need Goldman. Either way, you don't treat clients like cash cows if your main business is advice, not sales.
    Who puts together the products that are bought by a sophisticated investor? EG the mortgage securities that make home loans affordable. Or the contracts and equity that may fund an energy merger. That's what Goldman does. They assemble financial products and sell them, and it's been one of their main lines of business for a while.

    Who the heck do you know who works with Goldman just to buy some regular hunky-dory stocks? The people who maintain brokerage accounts with them tend to be the super-wealthy who are looking for something a bit more than just equities.

    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    A fine of over half a billion dollars says pretty much everything you need to hear.
    I would expect you to see through the government when they settle for a pile of cash and no admission of any guilt. The government wanted some dollar bills to smile at, and Goldman didn't want a trial. Doesn't mean the government was wrong, but it also doesn't mean they are right.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I would expect you to see through the government when they settle for a pile of cash and no admission of any guilt. The government wanted some dollar bills to smile at, and Goldman didn't want a trial. Doesn't mean the government was wrong, but it also doesn't mean they are right.
    But it does mean that GS was wrong. Of all the players involved, I think that the government had the basest motive of all, but at the same time, when someone's willing to pay half a billion dollars to avoid having their dirty laundry aired, that tells you a lot about the laundry in question, doesn't it?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Who puts together the products that are bought by a sophisticated investor? EG the mortgage securities that make home loans affordable. Or the contracts and equity that may fund an energy merger. That's what Goldman does. They assemble financial products and sell them, and it's been one of their main lines of business for a while.

    Who the heck do you know who works with Goldman just to buy some regular hunky-dory stocks? The people who maintain brokerage accounts with them tend to be the super-wealthy who are looking for something a bit more than just equities.
    So because Goldman is composed of multiple divisions, clients should expect unethical and illegal advice that clearly crosses the line of conflict of interest and is unconcerned with the interests of the clients? FYI, plenty of industries are in a similar situation, and most of them still think each division should do its primary job, instead of forcing everyone to work for sales.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiducia...y_and_remedies
    Last edited by Loki; 03-18-2012 at 09:44 AM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Who puts together the products that are bought by a sophisticated investor? EG the mortgage securities that make home loans affordable. Or the contracts and equity that may fund an energy merger. That's what Goldman does. They assemble financial products and sell them, and it's been one of their main lines of business for a while.

    Who the heck do you know who works with Goldman just to buy some regular hunky-dory stocks? The people who maintain brokerage accounts with them tend to be the super-wealthy who are looking for something a bit more than just equities.

    I would expect you to see through the government when they settle for a pile of cash and no admission of any guilt. The government wanted some dollar bills to smile at, and Goldman didn't want a trial. Doesn't mean the government was wrong, but it also doesn't mean they are right.
    Having super-wealthy clients, or those with 'sophisticated' investing knowledge, doesn't mean there's a lower standard of fiduciary duty, or obligation to disclose possible conflicts of interest. Might even argue those clients raise the bar quite a bit if they're investing for a company's retirement plan or endowment fund, representing thousands of people. Hank Greenberg (AIG) was particularly unhappy with GS after the financial meltdown, when all those 'products' and counter-parties were being untangled. Gah, have you forgotten all the facts that came out after TARP, HAMP etc. and the financial "rescue"?

    (Slight tangent, but it's not the synthetic mortgage-backed securities that make home loans affordable. Those are the CDOs that got lenders into so much trouble to begin with.)

    I'm wondering why you're still trying to defend GS. Here's more of their history:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...3GS_story.html

  18. #18
    Thanks for reinforcing what was already said. Goldman will steal the shirt off your book and strangle you with it if you're not an expert. Of course if you're an expert, it's not always clear why you need Goldman. Either way, you don't treat clients like cash cows if your main business is advice, not sales.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    A 550 million dollar trial? How's that happen?

    Insurance companies pay out 5 grand on medical expenses for "whiplash" to avoid the cost of litigation. No one pays out half a billion dollars because of the cost of litigation.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  20. #20
    Sure they do. $500 million really isn't a ton for these things, especially for a company like Goldman.

    As of 2010 Google spent $100 million on lawyers fighting Viacom in court over YouTube clips uploaded before Google bought YouTube. And that case never went to trial. Plus I think Viacom has tried to re-open it since. That lawsuit was over activity that happened over a short period of time when YouTube was just a small startup.

    Beyond the legal costs, these trials involve epic discovery processes. The government (or opposing council if the lawsuit is between two private companies) runs a massive court-ordered dragnet through the company. EG, they will subpoena all of the e-mails, expense reports and travel records for an entire division. And depose as many of them as they can. And that info will be prime meat for the prosecution to selectively leak to the media just to embarrass the defendant over tangential issues.

    For example, a series of e-mails in which several Goldman workers refer to other large banks as "muppets" will get pitched to the NYTimes and get published with the following sentence: "An examination of Goldman employee e-mails obtained by The New York Times paints a picture of Goldman employees showing extreme disdain for banker-clients at other firms, even while taking them out to professional lunches. The e-mails reflect what ex-Goldman employee Greg Smith describes as the firm's, 'loss of soul' and loss of dedication to clients."

    Sure, the idiot Goldmanites shouldn't be trash-talking their clients over e-mail. But it happens, at every company. And the threat of such leaks (combined with whole departments being deposed for hours/days on end) really casts a pall on business operations. Plus it often hurts potential business that is probably totally unrelated to the actual transaction being investigated by the SEC/DoJ.

    Long story short...

    These kinds of trials basically subject defendants like Goldman to a hundred-million dollar colonoscopy. They may find some polyps, but not necessarily malignant cancer. Nonetheless, the patient (Goldman) can't eat because there's a giant camera up its ass.

    In a business which depends on building solid products, having strong client relationships and making smart investments, settling without admitting anything is worth $500 million to a firm that had $29 billion in revenues in 2011.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    For example, a series of e-mails in which several Goldman workers refer to other large banks as "muppets" will get pitched to the NYTimes and get published with the following sentence: "An examination of Goldman employee e-mails obtained by The New York Times paints a picture of Goldman employees showing extreme disdain for banker-clients at other firms, even while taking them out to professional lunches. The e-mails reflect what ex-Goldman employee Greg Smith describes as the firm's, 'loss of soul' and loss of dedication to clients."
    They're not dealing with idiots. I find it odd that you don't think that a financial advisor calling his client a muppet because the latter bought financial instruments they didn't need passes the fiduciary duty test. It speaks to warped priorities and a lack of separation between the advising and sales part of the corporation. I don't know where you got your ethics training from, but a financial advisor SHOULD NOT BE TELLING HIS CLIENT TO BUY PRODUCTS THE CLIENT DOES NOT NEED. Doing this is not only unethical, but also illegal.

    Coincidentally, I've worked at a decent-sized corporation and I've never seen or heard of any client being referred to as a muppet or any other derogatory term; the worst you could say about a client is that they ask for too much, not that they're too dumb to know whether to do business with you.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
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    Fighting a lawsuit and fighting a criminal complaint are two wildly different things, Dread.

    Also, 2% of gross revenue is a big deal, not a small one.

    Like I said, and you seem to acknowledge to a large degree, they valued not having their dirty laundry aired at or greater than 550 million dollars. That kind of price tag on dirty laundry is a LOT more than just calling your clients morons and having questionable expense reports, because, as you admit, everyone knows that happens everywhere.

    If your secrets are worth half a billion dollars to keep from seeing the light of day, those are some nasty secrets indeed.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  23. #23
    Fighting a corporate lawsuit and fighting a corporate criminal complaint both require intense amounts of lawyers. Do you really think fighting a federal criminal lawsuit is cheaper than two companies fighting each other? It's not. Lawyers cost a ton and bill by the hour.

    And two percent of one year's revenue is not a big deal — their profit margins are 16% of revenue. Taking a one-time $500 million charge, avoided hundreds of millions of dollars in legal fees and avoiding months/years of dueling with the federal government is worth it.

    But it's not about dirty laundry -- this isn't about secrets. It's about not being able to walk down the street with a colonoscopy tube in your butt. These trials are invasive, expensive and hobble business. Any sane company with Goldman's revenues and profit margins will pay good money avoid them. They don't care about losing face for a bit as long as they can move on.

    And please note that I'm not saying Goldman was necessarily in the right on that case. But I don't think the settlement proves they were in the wrong. I am honestly shocked that you're willing to take at face value the government's shit-stained smile as they declare victory.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    And please note that I'm not saying Goldman was necessarily in the right on that case. But I don't think the settlement proves they were in the wrong.
    And where have I said anything different? My position is that the half a billion dollar payout means that GS values keeping its secrets secret at >= $550 million. Sure, there are legal fees and PR and the whole running a business while being rectally examined to be considered, but there's no way that accounts for the whole payment. A couple hundred million, maybe. But anyway you look at it, they're paying a nine figure premium to keep their dirty laundry from being aired... and that says a lot about the magnitude of their dirty laundry.

    I'll even grant (enthusiastically) that our legal system is such a clusterfuck that there's simply no way for any large corporation (or individual, for that matter) to conduct daily business without committing a bunch of crimes. But as that applies to everyone, you're still left with the unavoidable conclusion that GS paid a nine figure premium to avoid a trial and the airing of its dirty laundry. And that indicates some really dirty laundry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I am honestly shocked that you're willing to take at face value the government's shit-stained smile as they declare victory.
    Whatever are you reading? I think GS made out like a bandit on this deal. They get to keep their secrets by tossing the fed their 30 pieces of silver. Hell of a deal, especially for the dirty laundry GS has.

    The government can declare victory all it wants, it lost out big time on this deal. It would have been able to extract more money and tough penalties from GS, in addition to actually being in the right (not that such a thing matters to government, I guess) if it had pursued this to trial, or even taken a harder line in negotiations. Then again, that might have meant sending one of the country club buddies or the lobbyist's clients to jail, so maybe this was what "the government" wanted after all - a big payoff, with no consequences for the cronies involved in the malfeasance.

    If Africa can be summed up as "government bad, rebels worse," then surely the Western world can be summarized by "corporations bad, government worse." No one's righteous in this story, just a bunch of abusers and tyrants here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Coincidentally, I've worked at a decent-sized corporation and I've never seen or heard of any client being referred to as a muppet or any other derogatory term;
    Clearly, you need more experience. At least, if you want a better understanding. Plenty of clients are morons and worse (and referred to as such); it's just telling and rare that the reason they're morons is for being a [GS] client.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  25. #25
    Wait, so, if they'd fought and won they'd still have had to pay their lawyers etc. with their own money?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Wait, so, if they'd fought and won they'd still have had to pay their lawyers etc. with their own money?
    In civil cases you can get the loser to pay the winner's legal fees. This does not happen here with criminal or regulatory proceedings to the best of my knowledge. It's one of the many difficulties in fighting the government.
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  27. #27
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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    yes
    Wow then I guess the gummint has a great deal to gain from just randomly suing companies left and right
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #29
    I think you might be basing your experience on the IT industry, where the reason you get calls is because the client is inept.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
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    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Being an IT guy (now) doesn't mean I work for a tech company or get calls from stupid users. I'm not in end-user support, and don't work in the tech sector these days.

    Seriously, think about all the people in the world, how dumb most of them are, all the half brained ideas and then consider that these people generally hire professional labor and/or have employment, so they're someone's client. Whether or not someone contracts me to setup a VM farm has no bearing on how big of an idiot or asshole, or whatever else they may be (some of them even have their shit together), and when you get right down to it, lots of clients are absolute retards, as you'd expect, since being a drooling dumbass doesn't preclude having money to spend on professional services.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

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