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  1. #1

    Default Gunvor and the Urals oil price

    I'm catching up on an Economist from a couple weeks ago and I ran across a very unusual - and quite intriguing - article on Gunvor, a major Swiss oil trader with significant ties to Russian politicians and oil producers. What was unusual was that the Economist rarely publishes articles full of such innuendo, they tend not to do this much independent research for an 'expose', and the article was scrupulously clear about their methodology and what of their theory was speculation. What made it intriguing was that they made a reasonable case that Gunvor was very cleverly manipulating the price of Urals oil in order to bilk the Russian taxpayer of significant amounts of money.

    I'd strongly recommend you read the article (below), but for a very quick summary: the Economist contends that based on data taken from the Platts published price for Urals oil they recognized a very odd correlation between intense bursts of Gunvor selling activity and drops in the published price of Urals oil. The technical analysis is a bit more complex - and I myself have some questions about their specific methodology - but it seems to indicate that Gunvor was intentionally depressing the Platts price of Urals oil below its real value. The Economist then speculates that this is done in spurts in order to temporarily drive down the published price, which is used as an index for various oil contracts when Gunvor is buying from Russian producers. Essentially, they're using a small part of their selling trades to influence the spot price on the market which allows them a discount when locking in contracts for Russian oil.

    The article is very speculative, but if their hypothesis is correct, the scheme is both mind-blowingly clever and incredibly impressive that such manipulation of a widely published price index has gone on unnoticed for so long. I question some of their analysis - and notably am curious whey their data stops in 2009 - but they've made a decent case that small group of investors (mostly Russian plutocrats, I believe) has bilked the Russian taxpayer out of, conservatively, hundreds of millions of dollars. It's a very clever use of their clout - they are one of the main traders in a very thinly traded market, and while the Platts index seems to be well-designed, they appear to have found a way to exploit it to their advantage.

    Now, two caveats: Platts angrily rejected the claims that their price research could be manipulated, and since their reputation relies on it, I suspect they've at least done due diligence on whether Gunvor is involved (though whether they'd admit it is another story entirely). Also, the Economist has already tangled with Gunvor before over a libel lawsuit that they settled out of court. I would find it unlikely and pretty petty, but it's possible this is just payback - certainly they appeared to carefully cover their asses wrt libel in how they wrote the article. Even so, it's a compelling - and quite surprising - story.

    What do you guys think? Is it credible? I've seen arguments about much smaller cases of manipulation of similar published indices - for example, there have been some complaints about LIBOR in recent years - but nothing this egregious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economist
    Riddles, mysteries and enigmas
    Amid international concern about the integrity of the global oil markets, we report on the Kremlin’s favourite oil trader

    FEW people outside Russia have ever heard of Gunvor—and Gunvor would probably prefer it that way. It is the world’s fourth-biggest oil trader, and at its peak handled roughly a third of Russia’s seaborne exports of crude oil. We suspect that Gunvor has been driving down the price of Russian oil. An investigation by The Economist into Gunvor’s trading in Urals crude, a benchmark blend in north-west Europe, suggests that such a strategy could have helped the firm buy oil in Russia cheaply and, in theory, earn inflated profits when it sold the same oil on the international market at full price.

    Spot markets for oil are virtually unregulated so the law allows Gunvor considerable freedom of manoeuvre. Yet any fall in Russia’s revenues could have harmed the country’s citizens, who benefit from oil taxes. Moreover, the spot markets have become the subject of official concern. In March, after a request from the leaders of the G20 (including Russia), the International Organisation of Securities Commissions (IOSCO), a forum for regulating financial markets, issued an appeal for ideas on reforming oil-price reporting. One of its aims is to “ensure the integrity of [the oil markets’] price assessment”. If our suspicions are well-founded, Gunvor’s Urals trade would show how vulnerable oil markets are to distortion.

    Nobody but Gunvor itself knows for sure whether it set out to move the Urals price, as we suspect. The firm is adamant that it has done nothing wrong.

    So we have no proven case. But we do have a set of suspicious circumstances. Under Vladimir Putin, who was elected Russia’s president in March and will be sworn in next week, Gunvor has grown from a small, virtually unknown company into the most important trader of Russian oil (see article). Before Russia’s presidential election, Gunvor attracted criticism from opposition protesters for making money out of the country’s oil and for being based in Switzerland. Given Gunvor’s political sensitivity and that Russia needs to get the best price for its oil, Mr Putin should look into the Urals market.

    Our investigation has three parts. The first is based on public data, which show that over a period of years Gunvor’s trading was repeatedly associated with falls in the market price for Urals crude over a few days or weeks. The second is our analysis, which founds our suspicion that Gunvor intended to drive the price down temporarily in this way. And the third is the related question of what such a strategy might have accomplished.

    The “Urals blend” includes much of the 5m barrels a day or so of crude oil that Russia exports. The sellers are oil producers, including Rosneft, Surgutneftegaz and Gazprom Neft. The buyers are European refiners such as Hellenic and INA and the refining arms of oil companies such as Royal Dutch Shell and Total. In among the buyers and sellers are the trading companies, such as Glencore, Vitol—and Gunvor.

    The way of the window

    Most of the Urals spot trading takes place in private and is not reported. The published price for Urals oil is set by Platts, part of McGraw-Hill, a media company. Platts writes about the market in its daily Crude Oil Marketwire, a representative summary containing the day’s most noteworthy public bids, offers and trades.

    Platts sets its daily price using the bids, offers and transactions that are published on its systems. Its reporters can consider trades at any time in the day, but what counts is the last half-hour of trading, which ends at 4.30pm sharp London time, when the price is established. Platts invites parties to disclose open bids and cargoes for sale in the lead up to a 3.45pm cut-off, after which it accepts no new bids or offers. Starting at 4pm, it watches the dealing in the half-hour “window”. It uses its knowledge of the market plus the prices of these trades, bids and offers to establish the published price for the day.

    This system, known as the “Market-on-Close” (MOC) methodology, has many advantages. Instead of relying only on the subjective impressions of reporters telephoning around for news from their contacts, it also uses a formal mechanism to help establish a price at the same time each day. It brings together buyers and sellers who want a part in forming the published price. It avoids the drawbacks of average prices, set over the whole trading day, which tend to be too high in a falling market and too low in a rising one.

    Platts is alive to the danger of companies playing games. If its reporters think trading is manipulative or unrepresentative, they have the power to exclude any bid, offer or deal from their reckoning of the published price. As far as Platts is concerned, there has been nothing in the Urals trading to suggest that Gunvor or any other company has systematically been misleading the market. “It is our view”, Platts said in a statement, “that no single company has the ability to determine market prices on its own within Platts MOC assessment process.” Platts believes that its safeguards and the normal market dynamic between willing buyers and sellers create “a natural check and balance” against transactions that distort the price.

    But any system can be played to advantage. Urals is a thin market in which the typical day’s Crude Oil Marketwire features only one cargo on offer, one buyer that has expressed an interest, or one completed trade. We think that, contrary to Platts’s assurance, in such a market it is possible for a trader to direct MOC prices. On behalf of The Economist, Edward Osterwald*, a consultant who is an oil specialist with many years’ experience in central Europe and Russia, used public data from Crude Oil Marketwire to analyse Gunvor’s behaviour. The Economist’s analysis began in January 2005, shortly after Rosneft had taken control of Yuganskneftegaz, and finished at the end of May 2009, when a libel case between us and Gunvor was pending (the case was settled out of court). We also applied some statistical tests to the data.

    Gunvor almost only offered and sold oil in the Platts MOC window. That is because it buys oil off the spot market under tender on long-term contracts with Russian producers and thus has a lot of oil to sell. Its sales in the window were concentrated in bursts, typically lasting several days. But its activity struck The Economist as different from that of other firms, because the bursts very often coincided with a fall in the market value for Urals crude.

    On the face of it, that behaviour is odd, because a trader like Gunvor is normally equally interested in a high selling price and a low purchase price. And yet its trading activity commonly—if temporarily—drove down the spot-price assessment.

    In the four years and five months that were analysed, the Crude Oil Marketwire featured a total of 1,218 bids for cargoes, offers of cargoes and trades within the Platts assessment. Of these, 412 involved Gunvor—more than twice as many as any other trader and nearly nine times more than the average. That is in line with its status as the market’s biggest trader. Remember, though, that Platts’s MOC assessment contains any particular bid, offer or deal only because the parties want it known. Some, like Exxon Mobil, rarely confirm trades with Platts. Gunvor chose to trade in the window often and heavily.

    MOC execution

    What effect did this have? Nearly all Gunvor’s trades within the window were sales or offers to sell (see chart 1). In those four years and five months, Gunvor sold or offered oil 399 times and bid or bought oil just 13 times. In other words, Gunvor was responsible for half of all the sales and 40% of all offers in the window. By contrast, Gunvor accounted for only 3.1% of buys and 0.7% of bids.

    Gunvor makes its offers not in a steady stream, but in bursts. Thus in 2007 Gunvor’s reported trading activity was concentrated in 13 bursts spread over the year. “The usual effect of Gunvor’s activity on the price was to depress it,” says Mr Osterwald, who was head of oil and gas for Arthur Andersen in central and eastern Europe, the Middle East, India and Africa. “This is the opposite of what a normal commercial seller would wish to achieve.”

    The spot price of Urals is measured against “forward-dated Brent”, the benchmark for much of the world’s oil, based on oil from the North Sea priced for delivery on a set date in the future. Urals tends to trade at a discount to Brent, because it contains more sulphur and more heavy hydrocarbons, neither of which refiners prize. The “price” is the size of this discount.

    During 11 of the 13 bursts in 2007 of Gunvor’s trading in the window, as identified by the Crude Oil Marketwire, Urals fell against forward-dated Brent. In ten of the corresponding periods when Gunvor was absent or virtually absent from the price-setting mechanism, Urals recovered.

    In a market where the price is broadly stable over a long period of time, the size and number of day-to-day price increases should roughly match the size and number of day-to-day price falls—and that holds true for Urals. However, an analysis shows that Gunvor’s pattern of trading has a predictable effect (see chart 2). On more than 80% of the days when Gunvor was selling in bursts in the Platts window, Urals fell against Brent. On more than 75% of the days when it was not, Urals rose.

    Interestingly, Gunvor’s behaviour reversed in March 2009, right at the end of the four years and five months we looked at. In each of the next three bursts of heavy use of the window, over the following two months, Gunvor bought oil and the price relative to Brent rose. Mr Osterwald says this was the first time he saw Gunvor bid in the window. We do not know why its behaviour changed.

    We are left with the first half of a detective story. There is a set of striking trades that we suspect were part of a trading strategy—after all, Gunvor was present in the window only because it chose to be.

    If so, what was it trying to achieve? This leads to the second step of our account, where we leave behind the public domain. Nobody except Gunvor knows why it chose to trade as it did. During the past two years we have repeatedly asked Gunvor to explain its trading to us. However, Gunvor declined to comment for publication. Therefore, from this point onward, we depend on inference and speculation.

    Window shopping

    People close to the Urals market suggest two theories for Gunvor’s behaviour. One view—and this is put forward by Gunvor itself—is that the company was simply behaving commercially. It was, the argument goes, selling into the window to establish a fair benchmark price for the far larger quantities of oil it was selling in private. Eager to shift oil, Gunvor saw the Platts window as the place where buyers congregate. Platts and Gunvor argue that the price is determined by any number of objective factors, such as economic growth, the weather, shipping markets and so forth. To reduce everything to Gunvor’s trading, they say, is nonsense. In this view, Gunvor was not driving the market down, but following it down, selling oil when the price had started to fall, because waiting would only mean a still-worse deal.

    This may be so, but we remain suspicious. We have reasons for thinking that the price fall was often caused not by objective factors, such as changes in the economy, but by Gunvor itself coming into the market. We analysed Gunvor’s trading using a statistical technique called a Granger causality test, which helps to distinguish cause from effect. To see how the test works think of two sets of statistics for rainfall and the sale of umbrellas. The Granger test compares these to show which, as a rule, comes first, the rain or the umbrellas. Here, it is easy to see that shops tend to sell more umbrellas after people start to get wet—or, to put it another way, that rainfall causes the sale of umbrellas.

    Our statistical analysis shows that, in this technical sense, Gunvor caused the Urals price to fall, because it generally started its burst of selling and offering cargoes before the market turned down. Rarely did a falling market lead Gunvor to start selling. It was as if Gunvor’s sales and offers were a signal for Urals to fall against Brent.

    Perhaps Gunvor was using objective factors to anticipate a bearish market—like someone who has seen the weather forecast and buys an umbrella while the sun is still shining. But Gunvor tended to sell and offer oil without other companies piling in. Either the rest of the market was in fact not bearish or Gunvor was undercutting the price so much that others did not think they would make money selling through the window. Whichever, Gunvor was more eager to sell than other companies.

    Gunvor’s analysts might have had their own private forecasters who could spot objective factors that other traders did not. You might then expect Gunvor to have sold in the window when others did not. If so, Gunvor’s forecasters were not much good. Although they were right some of the time—as you would expect—the price usually started to recover when Gunvor stopped selling. Indeed, more often than not the price often recovered a fair bit: the pattern was especially pronounced early in our analysis (see charts 3a and 3b).

    In the first three-and-a-half years, the market was flat. And in the 12 months to May 2009 there was an overall bull market for Urals, in which the prevailing discount to Brent narrowed, from around $5 a barrel to $1 a barrel or less. If Gunvor had a private forecast it often seemed wrongly to predict a bearish market.

    When you analyse Gunvor’s behaviour in this way, the view that Gunvor has merely been responding to the market is not wholly convincing. If Gunvor’s intention was to benchmark the market, the result was mostly to send prices lower. If it came into the window to find better bargains, it tended to get a worse price. If it thought it saw objective factors for thinking that a bear market was on its way, it was alone and often mistaken.

    As a rule, traders should not be predictable—otherwise counterparties can foresee what they are about to do, and bet against them. Part of a trader’s skill is getting the best price. But its approach led Gunvor to sell oil predictably and too cheaply—and hence to leave some profits on the table. You might think that Gunvor was just big and that it had a lot of oil, so it was bound to drive the price down. Yet the markets already knew about Gunvor’s size. The question is why Gunvor’s appearance in the window was so often bearish.

    Because we were surprised by what we found, we asked Michael Sayers to review Mr Osterwald’s study. As a former head of compliance for ICE Futures Europe in London, Mr Sayers is an expert in overseeing oil markets. In his opinion: “It is inconceivable that [Gunvor] are unaware of the shadow they cast but they continue [to sell] repeatedly throughout the period covered by the study. A rational trader would recognise that their behaviour was not profit-maximising and change accordingly.” Yet Gunvor kept on selling.

    Assuming Gunvor was not just incompetent, that leaves the second, less benign, view: that Gunvor knew it was driving the price down and did so repeatedly. How, though, can a company that sells oil profit from a lower price? That is the third step in the analysis. The private nature of commodities trading means it can only be speculative—unless official regulators with the power to investigate take an interest.

    Time to look closely

    In theory, there are many ways to make money from the foreknowledge that the Urals spread against forward-dated Brent is about to widen temporarily. Gunvor, or related parties, could trade in futures markets—though you might then expect its counterparties eventually to realise that the market was hard to make money in. Or it might trade in other spot markets where prices are predictably connected to Urals.

    Gunvor does not just use the Platts Urals window to sell oil, it has also used the published price to determine how much it should pay for the Russian oil that it buys on long-term contracts. In March 2008, for instance, Reuters reported that Gunvor had signed a six-month tender with Rosneft that was based on the price of Brent minus the Platts Urals spread.

    Perhaps Gunvor could win an open tender for oil, by driving the Platts price down and offering a generous premium, safe in the knowledge that it would still make money when the Platts price recovered. Or Gunvor might have used a lower Platts price to cut its own purchase costs only to sell it on later at the full price, when the market had recovered. The rate of tax on Russia’s oil exports is set partly by reference to average oil prices over a month. By lowering the Urals price, Gunvor could thus also have lowered Russia’s tax take.

    Gunvor could point out that on any given day it is buying some cargoes of oil in Russia and selling other cargoes of oil on the open market. If so, what it gains by lowering the purchase price of one cargo, it would lose in the sale of another. But volumes matter: if a trader could sell less at the depressed price than it bought, it would make money. Moreover, the oil might not be priced on the day of purchase. If the price for an entire month’s oil deliveries could be pegged to the average Platts price for, say, the first two weeks of the month, then a trader could turn a profit.

    Gunvor would not have to change the price of the oil it is trading by more than a few cents to make a decent return, because it trades such huge volumes. In the four years and five months we looked at, just 25 cents of extra profit per barrel would be worth more than $200m.

    The Economist has two possible explanations for Gunvor’s behaviour—that Gunvor was being commercial or that it intended to drive down the market price. Gunvor denies that it has manipulated the market, and Platts rejects the idea that our statistical analysis is a substitute for its own “rigorous market observation and analysis”. But if the second explanation is true, a benchmark for crude has been distorted and the Russian taxpayers might have seen a lot of money depart to Geneva.

    IOSCO points out that spot markets like the one for Urals crude are a reference for all sorts of contracts. They can thus have “a high impact on oil-derivatives markets and …broader financial markets and the global economy.” We think it is now time for Mr Putin and IOSCO to investigate.

    *Mr Osterwald now works for Navigant, a management and litigation consulting firm.
    http://www.economist.com/node/21554185

  2. #2
    You sound surprised that speculation on commodity futures....might have some bad actors manipulating prices.

  3. #3
    All I can say is... ARGH!

  4. #4
    What's your ARGH mean, wiggin? Have I managed to miss another point?


    You know my opinion on commodities trading vs speculation. Some of the futures traders never take possession of any commodity, and they're not part of the actual chain of extraction/manufacturing/processing, or end-consumption. Some are trading commodity index funds, and they can trade all day long on nothing but currency values fluctuating, and make profits in HFT volume one/tenth of a penny at a time.

    I see no reason to exclude any nation, oil company, or their subsidiaries doing the same thing. Do you?



    IOSCO points out that spot markets like the one for Urals crude are a reference for all sorts of contracts. They can thus have “a high impact on oil-derivatives markets and …broader financial markets and the global economy.” ...

    But if the second explanation is true, a benchmark for crude has been distorted and the Russian taxpayers might have seen a lot of money depart to Geneva.
    Again, we see the impact of certain derivative trading on all manner of "contracts", financial markets, and economies. Including distorted prices, and taxpayers basically funding private gains for public losses. This isn't something peculiar to Russia. The US has been engaged in this type of behavior for decades....
    Last edited by GGT; 05-16-2012 at 07:15 PM.

  5. #5
    Yes, you missed the point. By a mile and a half. As usual, you have to interject into a thread with completely meaningless asides that have no bearing on the thread but are your pet discussion topics.

    Gunvor is a major oil trading company in Europe that buys actual oil and also sells actual oil - mostly they buy from producers in Russia and elsewhere, and they sell to refineries and the like - they own a large distribution network with a huge amount of equity in logistics and infrastructure (e.g. port facilities, pipelines, tanker networks, etc.). They have a real purpose, and are not trading for the sake of trading. Furthermore, the Urals oil market is pretty thinly traded and would be a disaster for most speculators. What Gunvor is alleged to have done is completely different from speculation. Unless you have something on topic to add, please don't drag your rants about speculation into another thread.

  6. #6
    This isn't just My Rant.

    As a rule, traders should not be predictable—otherwise counterparties can foresee what they are about to do, and bet against them. Part of a trader’s skill is getting the best price. But its approach led Gunvor to sell oil predictably and too cheaply—and hence to leave some profits on the table. You might think that Gunvor was just big and that it had a lot of oil, so it was bound to drive the price down. Yet the markets already knew about Gunvor’s size. The question is why Gunvor’s appearance in the window was so often bearish.

    Because we were surprised by what we found, we asked Michael Sayers to review Mr Osterwald’s study. As a former head of compliance for ICE Futures Europe in London, Mr Sayers is an expert in overseeing oil markets. In his opinion: “It is inconceivable that [Gunvor] are unaware of the shadow they cast but they continue [to sell] repeatedly throughout the period covered by the study. A rational trader would recognise that their behaviour was not profit-maximising and change accordingly.” Yet Gunvor kept on selling.

    Assuming Gunvor was not just incompetent, that leaves the second, less benign, view: that Gunvor knew it was driving the price down and did so repeatedly. How, though, can a company that sells oil profit from a lower price? That is the third step in the analysis. The private nature of commodities trading means it can only be speculative—unless official regulators with the power to investigate take an interest.
    Feel free to explain how speculation, volume-trading, and price manipulation isn't what The Economist is reporting.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Feel free to explain how speculation, volume-trading, and price manipulation isn't what The Economist is reporting.
    You are joking, right?

    For instance, the article also says,

    If so, what was it trying to achieve? This leads to the second step of our account, where we leave behind the public domain. Nobody except Gunvor knows why it chose to trade as it did. During the past two years we have repeatedly asked Gunvor to explain its trading to us. However, Gunvor declined to comment for publication. Therefore, from this point onward, we depend on inference and speculation.
    but you realize they aren't actually talking about commodities speculation, correct?

    EDIT

    Nevermind, it looks like wiggin has already covered this.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 05-16-2012 at 08:08 PM.

  8. #8
    ARGH AGAIN! 'Speculative' is talking about their conclusions vis-a-vis what Gunvor is up to, not a description of Gunvor's activities. You're literally driving me nuts.


    It is unlikely that Gunvor would be able to manipulate the market itself on any significant scale without losing money - something I have contended again and again (and which you stubbornly refuse to agree with). But they can manipulate a specific published price (notably Pratts) because it represents only a small proportion of actual trades and most of the market is quite opaque. This is a completely different strategy than the ones you blather on about, and actually might have worked.

  9. #9
    I don't know very much about Gunvor or the Urals oil market, but the activity does sound suspicious. I can't imagine a large company selling in that way, when there's a clear means to increase sales profits (by selling more gradually), unless they had some other motive. It's possible that they were expecting a bear market, but if so they don't seem to very good at making those predictions, and surely somebody in their organization would have pointed out that they'd be better off just not trying to guess. Other motives seems a bit easier to believe than widespread incompetence.

    We certainly don't have enough evidence here to say with any certainty that some wrongdoing took place, but there does seem to be enough evidence to warrant an official investigation. However, given the state of Russian politics, I'd also have doubts about anything they claimed to find, no matter which way it went. So we might not ever really know if they're doing this with the intent to manipulate the market.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    ARGH AGAIN! 'Speculative' is talking about their conclusions vis-a-vis what Gunvor is up to, not a description of Gunvor's activities. You're literally driving me nuts.
    Did you miss the part of the article where trading speculation was mentioned? That's separate from The Economist making their journalistic speculations. My apologies, I thought we were clear on those differences.

    It is unlikely that Gunvor would be able to manipulate the market itself on any significant scale without losing money - something I have contended again and again (and which you stubbornly refuse to agree with). But they can manipulate a specific published price (notably Pratts) because it represents only a small proportion of actual trades and most of the market is quite opaque. This is a completely different strategy than the ones you blather on about, and actually might have worked.
    It's not "blathering". Neither you nor The Economist can figure out their (1) motivation, (2) strategy, or (3) manipulations. All you can say is something stinks, and make speculations about what's behind it. When you ask this

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    What do you guys think? Is it credible? I've seen arguments about much smaller cases of manipulation of similar published indices - for example, there have been some complaints about LIBOR in recent years - but nothing this egregious.
    I take you literally, and give my opinion accordingly. Agree or disagree, but please don't suggest I'm wrong because my replies weren't what you expected. <I've gotten plenty of flak for that kind of "thread-directing", so it should apply to everyone, right?>

    IMO, it's highly probable that there's market and price manipulation going on. Either by exploiting loopholes, or assuming no one is keeping track. The best places to hide or obfuscate that kind of business behavior is by trading on opaque international commodity derivatives markets, or use HFT to hedge commodity index funds pegged to international currencies.

    Again, neither Russia nor Gunvor are the only ones doing this. The US has a long, incestuous...and highly manipulative....relationship with the global and domestic oil industry, including its connections with the financial industry/lobbyists/legislators. That's what I've been trying to impress upon you, but you continue to call it blathering.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Did you miss the part of the article where trading speculation was mentioned? That's separate from The Economist making their journalistic speculations. My apologies, I thought we were clear on those differences.
    Where in the article is this mentioned?

    It's not "blathering". Neither you nor The Economist can figure out their (1) motivation, (2) strategy, or (3) manipulations. All you can say is something stinks, and make speculations about what's behind it. When you ask this
    Actually if you'd read the article, the Economist gives plenty of motivation and strategy. It's largely a guess, but it's a good one. I was curious what people thought about their article, not your pet theory which is completely unrelated.

    IMO, it's highly probable that there's market and price manipulation going on. Either by exploiting loopholes, or assuming no one is keeping track. The best places to hide or obfuscate that kind of business behavior is by trading on opaque international commodity derivatives markets, or use HFT to hedge commodity index funds pegged to international currencies.
    This is not talking about derivatives markets, index funds, or anything else. This is an actual contract for the purchase and delivery of oil.




    Wraithy - the Economist's analysis included a brief mention of the possibility that Guvnor was just anticipating a bear market and have particularly canny traders, but they debunk that theory pretty well on the basis of statistical analysis of the price behavior and some reasonable logic. I doubt that Guvnor is incompetent on this scale, either.

    I'm not particularly surprised that Russian plutocrats and politicians would be lining their pockets through their connections to various companies, I guess, but I am impressed at the apparent sophistication of this scheme. Certainly Gazprom and other oil producers whose sales are tied to the Urals index would probably object if they found out, so it's probably quite a dangerous game. I can't speculate on the broader issues of politics in Russia - I frankly don't know enough - but I strongly suspect something fishy is going on. Knowing exactly what is going on is probably quite hard to determine. That being said, I imagine that EU or Swiss authorities could investigate if they had a vested interest... but it appears that this trading activity would so far have only hurt the oil producers (I think?) so they might not be inclined to get involved. Regardless, it's a fascinating theory.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I'm not particularly surprised that Russian plutocrats and politicians would be lining their pockets through their connections to various companies, I guess, but I am impressed at the apparent sophistication of this scheme. Certainly Gazprom and other oil producers whose sales are tied to the Urals index would probably object if they found out, so it's probably quite a dangerous game. I can't speculate on the broader issues of politics in Russia - I frankly don't know enough - but I strongly suspect something fishy is going on. Knowing exactly what is going on is probably quite hard to determine. That being said, I imagine that EU or Swiss authorities could investigate if they had a vested interest... but it appears that this trading activity would so far have only hurt the oil producers (I think?) so they might not be inclined to get involved. Regardless, it's a fascinating theory.
    I don't know anything about Guvnor's political connections in Russia, I only meant that if the Russians decide to investigate and find anything, or nothing, I'll have to question whether that's because they actually found that, or because the investigator or their masters would benefit in some way from saying that they did.

    I would believe EU or Swiss investigators, but as you imply, it doesn't seem like the type of thing they'd care too much about. They'd also probably have a harder job of it all.

    Anyway, yeah, it is an interesting theory. Plausible too.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Where in the article is this mentioned?
    Each time they alluded to a profit by spreads and margins. If you want a complete paragraph for illustration, read this one:

    We suspect that Gunvor has been driving down the price of Russian oil. An investigation by The Economist into Gunvor’s trading in Urals crude, a benchmark blend in north-west Europe, suggests that such a strategy could have helped the firm buy oil in Russia cheaply and, in theory, earn inflated profits when it sold the same oil on the international market at full price.
    Those are "characteristic" attributes of speculative trading, designed to manipulate prices, and earn profits on transactional price differentials (between markets). It's alluded to several times in the article.


    Actually if you'd read the article, the Economist gives plenty of motivation and strategy. It's largely a guess, but it's a good one. I was curious what people thought about their article, not your pet theory which is completely unrelated.

    This is not talking about derivatives markets, index funds, or anything else. This is an actual contract for the purchase and delivery of oil.
    My "pet theory" is totally related. It's as good a GUESS as The Economist's. Gunvor can't be presumed to be incompetent or a market "victim". Their profits can't be explained by accidental idiocy, either. The whole scenario sounds to me like a very savvy proprietary trading desk, or using speculative hedges to make volume-based profits.


    I'm not particularly surprised that Russian plutocrats and politicians would be lining their pockets through their connections to various companies, I guess, but I am impressed at the apparent sophistication of this scheme. Certainly Gazprom and other oil producers whose sales are tied to the Urals index would probably object if they found out, so it's probably quite a dangerous game. I can't speculate on the broader issues of politics in Russia - I frankly don't know enough - but I strongly suspect something fishy is going on. Knowing exactly what is going on is probably quite hard to determine. That being said, I imagine that EU or Swiss authorities could investigate if they had a vested interest... but it appears that this trading activity would so far have only hurt the oil producers (I think?) so they might not be inclined to get involved. Regardless, it's a fascinating theory.
    Any investigation would also hurt the counter-parties, including those who participate in speculative trades as 'secondary' shareholders...and the money brought into local economies. Same reason why there's no comprehensive investigation into US oil trading and price manipulations (it would hurt the NYSE and NYC/Wall Street tax revenues).

    Fascinating theory? How about the incestuous relationships between financial and energy industries?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    You don't need widespread incompetence to explain Platts. Them not realizing there was a problem could easily have just an honest mistake, and they could easily not know there's a problem. What they do now that this article's been published might be interesting, but I don't think their denial is that there's a problem is very compelling evidence. It does count for something, but on balance from what I know from that article, market manipulation still seems a bit more likely than not.
    It appears from the article and the Platts letter to the Economist (linked in OP) that the Economist consulted them about their findings well before publication, and Platts flatly denied it. I'm very curious to see the newest trends in Platts pricing and Gunvor trades, but I frankly don't have access to that information (though some people do). If they changed their algorithm - or if Gunvor changes their behavior - that would be very telling. Unfortunately, all of the chatter I've seen online (even from energy industry insiders) has been speculative and no one's tried verifying or debunking their theory.

    I agree that something fishy does seem to be going on, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Each time they alluded to a profit by spreads and margins. If you want a complete paragraph for illustration, read this one: [...]

    Those are "characteristic" attributes of speculative trading, designed to manipulate prices, and earn profits on transactional price differentials (between markets). It's alluded to several times in the article.
    Do you actually know what speculation is?

    My "pet theory" is totally related. It's as good a GUESS as The Economist's. Gunvor can't be presumed to be incompetent or a market "victim". Their profits can't be explained by accidental idiocy, either. The whole scenario sounds to me like a very savvy proprietary trading desk, or using speculative hedges to make volume-based profits.
    Uh, yes, of course they're a 'proprietary trading desk'. They are a private company that buys oil from producers and delivers it to consumers. Proprietary trading is their job, but not trading in the way you talk about. They're trading in the same way that Southwest Airlines 'trades' in fuel in order to fly their planes - or Kraft 'trades' in the food commodities sector.

    But hedging? This is not even close to what their doing.

    As far as I can tell, you're just throwing around terms that are dirty words in your world and claiming that this company is doing them. Hedging is a very specific kind of activity, one that no one is suggesting Gunvor is doing here. (Oh, I'm sure they have some hedging operations for currency risk and the like, but that's completely irrelevant and unrelated to this article.)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    That being said, I imagine that EU or Swiss authorities could investigate if they had a vested interest... but it appears that this trading activity would so far have only hurt the oil producers (I think?) so they might not be inclined to get involved. Regardless, it's a fascinating theory.
    I am not sure if there is a legal basis (yet?) for the Swiss prosecutors to get active. I have to admit, the case looks complicated, but it seems to me that Gunvor could easily argue that their business in Russia lies under Russian law and authority.

    The political left (socialists and greens) are calling for regulation of the traders with head in Switzerland that would include their business abroad. Right wing parties oppose this, saying it won't improve the situation and just result in companies moving their headquarters to other countries.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  16. #16
    Have a look at the people who run/own the company. Then check if there are any recent news stories about the relationship between those people and Putin. It's not inconceivable that people were lining their pockets without the knowledge of the top political officials.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Actually the Economist got sued by Gunvor (which is privately owned, so they can get away with a lot of secrecy) for claiming that Putin owned a significant portion of the company - the US State Dept apparently also believes so according to Wikileaks, though obviously they strenuously deny it. I'm 100% sure there's a lot of collusion there, but it's devilishly hard to prove. Certainly Timchenko (co-founder) has close ties with Putin.

  18. #18
    If there's this much of a connection, I doubt we'll ever figure out the truth. More work for the new Kremlinologists I guess.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    So the one thing I'm a bit surprised about (and that makes me suspicious of the Economist's theory) is the response of Platts. They are a very well respected organization and they work for a company that cares about image (McGraw-Hill). It's incredibly important for their business that they are seen as accurate and impartial, and if this is true, then they've either been systematically duped (possible, given the complexity of the scheme), or something's rotten in the state of Denmark. So when they deny so strenuously that there's any external manipulation of their pricing data, either it's because they honestly believe that to be true, or that they know it's completely true and don't want anyone to know. If the former, then the Economist is clearly missing something. If the latter, they're playing a very dangerous game, something I find unlikely given their quite stellar reputation.

    So even in the absence of a gov't audit, I would have thought that Platts would have looked into this in great detail. Their denial that anything is wrong is what makes me most suspicious of the Economist's (admittedly poorly-supported) theory. Are there other likely scenarios we're missing? Is there some reasonable explanation for what's going on?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    So even in the absence of a gov't audit, I would have thought that Platts would have looked into this in great detail. Their denial that anything is wrong is what makes me most suspicious of the Economist's (admittedly poorly-supported) theory. Are there other likely scenarios we're missing? Is there some reasonable explanation for what's going on?
    Well, you didn't like my pet theory speculation conjecture. If there's something suspicious or fishy going on, it's just as likely to be done using completely legal (but opaque) strategies, including derivatives or currency trading, or fancy accounting tricks...without trying to come up with some complex and nefarious scheme. It's certainly no surprise that politicians and plutocrats might have financial connections...

  21. #21
    You don't need widespread incompetence to explain Platts. Them not realizing there was a problem could easily have just an honest mistake, and they could easily not know there's a problem. What they do now that this article's been published might be interesting, but I don't think their denial is that there's a problem is very compelling evidence. It does count for something, but on balance from what I know from that article, market manipulation still seems a bit more likely than not.

  22. #22
    You do realize that the Platts price has nothing to do with derivatives or currency trading or accounting?

  23. #23
    Uhm, what makes you think oil pricing (Platts, Brent or whatever) doesn't include some degree of trading manipulations, regardless of type?

  24. #24
    The assertion by the Economist is that it does, and that's what this whole thread is about. But you throw about terms that have no relevance and make it look like you're either (a) ignorant or (b) wildly off topic.

    Platts is not running an exchange; they do not have synthetic financial derivatives, currency hedges, short selling, or anything else. They do not audit accounts of anyone. What they do is try to publish an accurate price for different products actually changing hands between producers and consumers; in this case, Urals oil. They do this essentially by sampling contracts carried out on any given day to determine an accurate price. The Economist is just suggesting that Gunvor has found out how to 'game' the algorithm used by Platts to temporarily change the Urals oil price for their advantage (though it's unclear both how they did this and how it is to their advantage).

    Yes, it is technically a 'manipulation', and it's possible it's illegal (though I'm not sure). But you didn't say that - you went on about how the theory promulgated by the Economist is "complex and nefarious" as opposed to your far more likely scenario involving examples that could not possibly have anything to do with this case.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    ....The Economist is just suggesting that Gunvor has found out how to 'game' the algorithm used by Platts to temporarily change the Urals oil price for their advantage (though it's unclear both how they did this and how it is to their advantage).
    Okay, and haven't we learned that companies and sophisticated traders have figured out how to "game" algorithms and pricing advantages....since at least the late 90's? That's when newly created "synthetic financial vehicles" were created by math quants, using CDOs and derivative Credit Default Swaps...on the opaque, unregulated, and unmonitored secondary trading markets.

    Eventually we learned that many large corporations were exploiting those financial 'tools' to earn profits. At first it was AIG or Goldman Sachs, then it was Corzine's fund, and now it's JP Morgan.

    Yes, it is technically a 'manipulation', and it's possible it's illegal (though I'm not sure). But you didn't say that - you went on about how the theory promulgated by the Economist is "complex and nefarious" as opposed to your far more likely scenario involving examples that could not possibly have anything to do with this case.
    Based on my opinion that most market manipulations can be "orchestrated" within the law, or by "exploiting" existing laws. This is what pays international tax attorney salaries, and specialized accountants, and keeps thousands of lobbyists fully employed. It's not something special to Russia....

  26. #26
    *throws up hands* This is pointless.

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