Results 1 to 28 of 28

Thread: German Work-Training Programs in US (Hubba hubba)

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default German Work-Training Programs in US (Hubba hubba)

    This is awesome. And, with the relatively flexible US labor market, should turn out to be a great long-term investment for companies like VW.

    It is interesting how on-the-job workplace training/apprenticeships seem to have fallen by the wayside in some industries. On the services side, can anyone think of many high-end service-based industries that are structured like this?

    Germany's New Export: Jobs Training

    U.S. Companies Embrace Apprenticeships Introduced by VW, Siemens Factories
    By VANESSA FUHRMANS

    CHATTANOOGA, Tenn.—Germany's transplant-factories, like the sprawling Volkswagen AG complex here, aren't just cranking out cars, machinery and chemicals. They're also bringing a German training system that could help narrow America's skilled labor gap.


    Volkswagen, whose auto factory will graduate its first class of U.S. apprentices next year, is one of dozens of companies introducing training that combine German-style apprenticeships and vocational schooling.

    These worker training programs are winning U.S. adherents as manufacturers grapple with a paradox: Though unemployment remains stuck above 8%, companies can't find enough machinists, robotics specialists and other highly skilled workers to maintain their factory floors. An estimated 600,000 skilled, middle-class manufacturing jobs remain unfilled nationwide, even as millions of Americans search for work.

    "We've learned it is better to build our own workforce instead of just relying on the market," said Hans-Herbert Jagla, Volkswagen's human resources chief at its one-year-old Chattanooga plant. The German car maker has launched a three-year apprenticeship program to ensure it has skilled workers to maintain and troubleshoot the car maker's high-tech robotics and assembly line systems.

    Companies and federal and state policy makers have begun taking a closer look at programs at VW, Siemens AG and BMW AG. All have joined forces with community colleges to train workers in machining, welding and maintaining high-tech gear.

    In Charleston, S.C., where German auto-parts and engineering firm Robert Bosch GmbH has run an apprenticeship program since the 1970s, aluminum products maker JW Aluminum, aerospace and industrial equipment maker Eaton Corp., engineering company ITT Corp. and nearly a dozen other U.S. companies have set up apprenticeship programs in the past few years with Trident Technical College, Bosch's partner.

    "There is not a company I've spoken to that isn't interested in the concept," said Mitchell Harp, Trident's director of apprenticeship programs, who adds that the Bosch program has come to be seen as "the gold standard" in the area. "It is really a question of how to get it into the budget."

    In March, Northern Virginia officials visited Siemens and other companies in Germany to explore how they could forge similar skills-building programs with local companies and local schools. White House and Education Department officials also have inquired about a high school skills-training program that German engine maker Tognum AG plans to launch this fall in South Carolina, where it operates a manufacturing plant.

    "In the U.S. we've evolved to the point where we think the only thing people should strive for is a four-year college education, and factory work is seen as dirty, dangerous and repetitive," said Tom Duesterberg, executive director of the Aspen Institute's Manufacturing and Society in the 21st century program. "In Germany, the work that is done on the factory floor and prepared by its vocational education system is highly valued."

    In Germany, nearly two-thirds of the country's workers are trained through partnerships among companies, technical schools and trade guilds. Last year, German companies took on and trained nearly 600,000 paid apprentices. The schools provide theoretical lessons on the side, while trade unions help ensure training is standardized.

    In the U.S., such close cooperation doesn't often exist. Another stumbling block has been companies' fear of spending on training, only to see apprentices go elsewhere. Siemens spends approximately $165,000 an apprentice in its new three-year mechatronics training program in Charlotte, N.C.

    But where apprenticeship programs are reaching a critical mass, U.S. companies have joined. At Central Piedmont Community College in Charlotte, where some 200 German firms have nearby operations, 18 companies participate in company-tailored apprentice partnerships. Most are European, but a few, such as U.S. bearings maker Timken Co., also take part.

    Carolina CAT, a Charlotte, N.C., heavy equipment distributor, last year launched a service technician training program loosely modeled on the German companies' apprenticeships. It sponsors students for 12 months of custom-tailored courses at the college followed by eight weeks of hands-on training at Carolina CAT. When the first class graduates later this year, students are likely to get full-time jobs at the company.

    "American companies are beginning to realize they have a part in creating a more reliable supply of skilled workers," said Tony Zeiss, Central Piedmont's president.

    The training programs aren't necessarily expensive, said Jörg Klisch, vice president of Tognum's North American operations. The German engine maker is targeting high-school students unlikely to pursue a higher degree. It provided the local school district with a two-year curriculum to train six students this fall as industrial mechanics in its vocational center.

    The only cost to Tognum will be the several hours a week it pays students for hands-on work starting at $8 an hour. "We think we've found the missing link in the education system between high school and starting college," Mr. Klisch said.

    Companies such as Volkswagen warn that without training its own skilled workers, they may struggle to expand. The car maker should know: As it ramped up production to meet growing demand for its U.S.-produced Passat this year, it needed a nationwide advertising campaign to fill 100 of the more specialized new jobs at the plant, including those for maintenance technicians and manufacturing engineers.

    "We can't just limit ourselves to this region," VW's Mr.Jagla said. "It is too hard to find enough people."

    Its apprenticeship program is a backup plan to ensure it has enough skilled workers for future plant expansions. About two dozen students join the program each year, then toggle between on-site classroom and on-the job training, while getting paid a starting $10 an hour.

    One recruit was 28-year-old Brian Burton, who joined the program last year. When they graduate in 2014, he and his brother Mark will have Volkswagen job offers—likely in skilled maintenance jobs starting at $22 an hour—as well as technical diplomas from Chattanooga State Community College. "It's not an education we can get anywhere else," Mr. Burton said.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...454725242.html

  2. #2
    Liberals probably dislike these types of plans because they look forward to indoctrinating the next generation in college.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    This is awesome. And, with the relatively flexible US labor market, should turn out to be a great long-term investment for companies like VW.
    I'm surprised that you think this is a great idea. So far the US/UK-people always either looked down to our education system or simply didn't understand it.

    It is interesting how on-the-job workplace training/apprenticeships seem to have fallen by the wayside in some industries. On the services side, can anyone think of many high-end service-based industries that are structured like this?
    25% of the Swiss people finishing high school make an apprenticeship in the finance/insurance sector. People with the so called "KV"-apprenticeship are the base workforce of our banking sector.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Liberals probably dislike these types of plans because they look forward to indoctrinating the next generation in college.
    If they really adopt the system like in Germany, Austria or Switzerland, you still go to school a few days per week.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    I'm surprised that you think this is a great idea. So far the US/UK-people always either looked down to our education system or simply didn't understand it.
    I've been under the impression this kind of stuff is more German and less Swiss, or am I mistaken? Still, I find some aspects of the German education system pretty interesting.

  5. #5
    Its been almost a decade, but I wrote a few papers on the US vocational schools that were overly popular in the late 70s and (I think) most of the 80s. The concept has all kinds of benefits; no need for years of wasted learning in college, students were easier to mold into the demands of the company, etc. But the big hang up was that it greatly reduced someone's sense of being able to change careers, and the vocational schools weren't considered as "good" at weeding out the people who couldn't think past the routine that was drilled into them. As the economy changes/d these people were in careers that were dissappearing completely, so they were forced back into schooling for a new career. It wouldn't have been so bad if they could have returned to a vocational school for a few months and jumped back into the job market, but people aren't smart enough to plan and save for that downtime. Also, at about the same time that these careers were dissappearing tech was really taking off so vocational training was stuck in a constant loop of being outdated, and combined with the management trend that companies were starting to believe that college meant a more flexible workforce, these trade schools started falling to the wayside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Liberals probably dislike these types of plans because they look forward to indoctrinating the next generation in college.
    I'd like to believe that a man would eventually start using common sense with or without a college education.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 06-18-2012 at 01:51 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Liberals probably dislike these types of plans because they look forward to indoctrinating the next generation in college.
    Psst. UAW.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  7. #7
    Not to worry, most of the attendees at these schools will be liberals
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #8
    Liberals probably dislike these types of plans because they look forward to indoctrinating the next generation in college
    You really need to make more defensible statements, that's just silly. I think going to school for a specific job-training is very time and cost efficient, it was the way the world worked for thousands of years when you grew up and did what your dad did. Now of days we have colleges that spend lots of time creating well-roundedness and theoretical understanding of material, while I do value that highly it's not always the best option for everyone.

    I would say though that since these job-training schools are more specific they'll be fewer people, and the social part of college (the part where you get to interact with a massively diverse set of cultures/personalities/beleifs) will be lost to some degree, and that's another very important role of college.

    Overall, I like the idea, I think it's a very logical for many people and I'm also a liberal.

  9. #9
    Ok, finally read through the actual article. What VW is doing doesn't sound much different than what Ford has/had been doing for at least a decade. I remember when I was college shopping I hit up a few schools that had partnerships with Ford for training like what the article is describing. Ford would donate their newest models to the college and the college would train the students using those cars. Its one of the reasons my dad bought a Ford Escape the following year
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 06-18-2012 at 02:43 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  10. #10
    Where did you get that from?
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  11. #11
    Get what?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Get what?
    That VW does the same as Ford.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    That VW does the same as Ford.
    Quick google attempt to find info on what they showed me 10 years ago gave me this link: http://www.ford-apprenticeships.co.uk/

    The article may be taking some liberties with what counts as an apprenticeship. These programs are all setup through colleges. These apprenticeships are basically classes you take alongside your other classes. Some of them may pay, but we had that in high school, so thats not exactly new. You still graduate with a diploma, but these work programs give you a foot in the door for the field you were interested in. Where Ford donates cars and the information needed to work with them, VW seems to be donating factory time. The end result is the same, a college program thats heavily influenced and approved by the car maker, and students who graduate prepared and knowledgable enough to work on that company's products.

    Ford also donates to high schools as well as college programs.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 06-18-2012 at 06:30 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    These programs are all setup through colleges. These apprenticeships are basically classes you take alongside your other classes. Some of them may pay, but we had that in high school, so thats not exactly new. You still graduate with a diploma, but these work programs give you a foot in the door for the field you were interested in. Where Ford donates cars and the information needed to work with them, VW seems to be donating factory time. The end result is the same, a college program thats heavily influenced and approved by the car maker, and students who graduate prepared and knowledgable enough to work on that company's products.

    Ford also donates to high schools as well as college programs.
    The key point of a "German" style system is that the apprenticeship are standardized, you don't learn how to build a VW but how to build a car. Now as I read the article, they think that with the big German companies starting to have more and more apprenticeships, they could reach that point.
    Volkswagen, whose auto factory will graduate its first class of U.S. apprentices next year, is one of dozens of companies introducing training that combine German-style apprenticeships and vocational schooling.
    This is nothing else but the dual system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

    It's not really what Ford did as I understand it, now this...
    Carolina CAT, a Charlotte, N.C., heavy equipment distributor, last year launched a service technician training program loosely modeled on the German companies' apprenticeships. It sponsors students for 12 months of custom-tailored courses at the college followed by eight weeks of hands-on training at Carolina CAT. When the first class graduates later this year, students are likely to get full-time jobs at the company.
    ..sounds a lot more like what Ford did, but as mentioned, it only loosely modeled on the "German" system.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  15. #15
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  16. #16
    The VW partnership location that the college manages. Again, this is nothing more than a college program:
    In addition to overseeing the educational programs, Chattanooga State is also responsible for managing the daily operations of the training center as well as recruiting and hiring instructors and support personnel.
    While attending the college, you can work towards your B.S. degree in Industrial Technology, and thats going to require a lot more than factory time.

    These links come directly from the website of the college the article is written about, where a Mr. Brian Burton will graduate:
    One recruit was 28-year-old Brian Burton, who joined the program last year. When they graduate in 2014, he and his brother Mark will have Volkswagen job offers—likely in skilled maintenance jobs starting at $22 an hour—as well as technical diplomas from Chattanooga State Community College. "It's not an education we can get anywhere else," Mr. Burton said.
    As I said, Ford donates cars, VW donates factories.

    If this isn't exactly the German system, I wouldn't be surprised. The article lacks a lot of details surrounding the program(s) and comes across as an advertising slot for VW and Chattanooga above all else.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  17. #17
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    This is standard over here, didn't expect it to be so special over there.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  18. #18
    eJ -

    I think that there's a significant proportion of people who aren't suited for college - and frankly don't need it for their jobs. In that case, vocational training (including apprenticeships, community college programs, technical high schools, etc.) is very much a good idea. We could definitely learn something from other educational systems in this regard. There are some issues in this - retraining can be a problem later in life without a more flexible skill set, as OG mentioned - but overall it definitely has merits.

    That being said, I do have a huge issue with German/et al programs in that specialization/tracking happens so early in a student's career - before secondary school, as I understand it. This has the potential to leave a lot of talent/potential on the table due to premature tracking. I do understand that having such early specialization allows the system to spend less resources on a 'general purpose' education for those going into various vocational options, so it's to some extent hard to separate the two. But I would much prefer a system which emphasized useful vocational training but not at the expense of flexibility in a student's educational choices in secondary and tertiary school.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    That being said, I do have a huge issue with German/et al programs in that specialization/tracking happens so early in a student's career - before secondary school, as I understand it. This has the potential to leave a lot of talent/potential on the table due to premature tracking. I do understand that having such early specialization allows the system to spend less resources on a 'general purpose' education for those going into various vocational options, so it's to some extent hard to separate the two. But I would much prefer a system which emphasized useful vocational training but not at the expense of flexibility in a student's educational choices in secondary and tertiary school.
    I agree, this is where my main disagreement comes in. The idea that someone could be put into a development "track" around the age of 15 just seems too early. I had no idea what I was going to do with my career until just before I graduated from college.

    On the flip side (to play Devil's Advocate), had such a technical/vocational track been available to me at an early age and seen as an acceptable thing to pursue, I could have ended up in a totally different place. I could easily see myself owning a managing an auto repair shop, but that kind career plan was/is totally outside of the consideration set of the dandified people I am part of/was educated with.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    This is standard over here, didn't expect it to be so special over there.
    Its not special, and these programs are hardly new. You see it more often in the service industry. Medical, education, library services. Mainly because these are everywhere. Partnerships like what this article discusses involving VW are largely location based. Colleges around Disney locations offer partnerships involving animation, those around factories offer mechnical training, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    On the flip side (to play Devil's Advocate), had such a technical/vocational track been available to me at an early age and seen as an acceptable thing to pursue, I could have ended up in a totally different place. I could easily see myself owning a managing an auto repair shop, but that kind career plan was/is totally outside of the consideration set of the dandified people I am part of/was educated with.
    Public schools already offer this. Brent is going into 6th grade (middle school) and could have been placed in an engineering track for aviation. Instead he picked a farther out school and will be doing environmental studies. They offer these focused schools for elementary students as well.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I agree, this is where my main disagreement comes in. The idea that someone could be put into a development "track" around the age of 15 just seems too early. I had no idea what I was going to do with my career until just before I graduated from college.

    On the flip side (to play Devil's Advocate), had such a technical/vocational track been available to me at an early age and seen as an acceptable thing to pursue, I could have ended up in a totally different place. I could easily see myself owning a managing an auto repair shop, but that kind career plan was/is totally outside of the consideration set of the dandified people I am part of/was educated with.
    (I also agree with wiggin: But I would much prefer a system which emphasized useful vocational training but not at the expense of flexibility in a student's educational choices in secondary and tertiary school. )

    Dread, you were probably put into an academic 'track' in elementary school. Anyone who's seen Miracle on 34th Street knows that used to called "progressive education". The US has been fiddling with experimental combined-grade "pods", "open classrooms", single or dual tracts, long before you were born.

    That's why eliminating courses many consider "non-academic", during tough budget times, has ruffled so many feathers. One important purpose behind courses in music, choir, band, orchestra, gym, sports, art, shop...is to help the student find their niche. Something they simply love, have a natural affinity for, and could turn into a career.

    Unfortunately for you, those dandified people of your youth didn't recognize how valuable a class in Car Maintenance (a shop program) could be, because it meant getting your hands dirty, or wasn't considered a "professional" track? That could have meant classes in chemistry, physics, algebra, geometry, computer technology, engineering, business management...and all sorts of problem-solving skills that would last a lifetime. And give your career a joy that many never know.

    I get a kick out of physicians and lawyers who buy expensive cars, or collect vintage cars, but complain their mechanics charge the same "professional rate".

  22. #22
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    eJ -

    I think that there's a significant proportion of people who aren't suited for college - and frankly don't need it for their jobs. In that case, vocational training (including apprenticeships, community college programs, technical high schools, etc.) is very much a good idea. We could definitely learn something from other educational systems in this regard. There are some issues in this - retraining can be a problem later in life without a more flexible skill set, as OG mentioned - but overall it definitely has merits.

    That being said, I do have a huge issue with German/et al programs in that specialization/tracking happens so early in a student's career - before secondary school, as I understand it. This has the potential to leave a lot of talent/potential on the table due to premature tracking. I do understand that having such early specialization allows the system to spend less resources on a 'general purpose' education for those going into various vocational options, so it's to some extent hard to separate the two. But I would much prefer a system which emphasized useful vocational training but not at the expense of flexibility in a student's educational choices in secondary and tertiary school.
    I see your point. We also have early separation into different tracks. It is still possible to 'move up' later, but it will take you longer. On the one hand, it's an advantage, because, for example, smarter kids are with smarter kids and can learn a lot faster (and more subjects). On the other hand, it disadvantages those who are in the lower tracks. They are taught less, and are usually in more disruptive classes.

    It's a mixed thing, really, but overall I am happy with our system. It also means about 10% of the students go into academia, and the rest is in more or less vocational schools. Some of those vocational schools are not really distinguished from US colleges (for example, accountancy and a lot of types of business schools fall under vocational schools here, but also nursing, car mechanics, engineers at nuclear power plants, it's really varied, and some are more practical and hands on, some are more academic). And with most diplomas it's not thát hard to get a job (provided you didn't study, for example, for musician).

    I would also like to point out to Dread that it's not so much what you want (you said "I had no idea what I was going to do with my career until just before I graduated from college"), but you are assessed on your capabilities. It's most of the time the right track, though there are of course mistakes made. A major difference is that university education here is more towards a single specialization, while your colleges give a much more broad education (for example, I have zero liberal arts classes to go with my Physics education), but then again, we probably had more of that at high school because we could learn faster and more because we were separated into different tracks.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I think that there's a significant proportion of people who aren't suited for college - and frankly don't need it for their jobs. In that case, vocational training (including apprenticeships, community college programs, technical high schools, etc.) is very much a good idea.
    There is also a large part of the Swiss population where the parents simply can't or don't want support their children college. Apprenticeships offer a solution where the young still live at home but can otherwise support themselves.
    We could definitely learn something from other educational systems in this regard. There are some issues in this - retraining can be a problem later in life without a more flexible skill set, as OG mentioned - but overall it definitely has merits.
    In Switzerland we have established several schools and diplomas that you can do during or after your apprenticeships. The most popular is the BMS (Berufsmaturitätsschule ~= Jobcollege) which allows you to go on a Fachhochschule
    afterwards, since Bollognia the Fachhochschule will end with a Bachelor degree.
    That being said, I do have a huge issue with German/et al programs in that specialization/tracking happens so early in a student's career - before secondary school, as I understand it.
    Highschool/Secondary school is oblygatory in Switzerland and I think it's the same in Germany.
    This has the potential to leave a lot of talent/potential on the table due to premature tracking. I do understand that having such early specialization allows the system to spend less resources on a 'general purpose' education for those going into various vocational options, so it's to some extent hard to separate the two. But I would much prefer a system which emphasized useful vocational training but not at the expense of flexibility in a student's educational choices in secondary and tertiary school.
    That's the idea behind the Swiss BMS, since 1980 it is standardized: It has to have at least 1440 lectures (45minutes each) and will always have the following subjects:
    First national language (native language)
    second national language (usually German/French)
    third language (English)
    History and Politics
    Economy, Management and Law
    Math

    Additional subjects are depending on your job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I've been under the impression this kind of stuff is more German and less Swiss, or am I mistaken? Still, I find some aspects of the German education system pretty interesting.
    Google thinks that Switzerland has ~20% with classic college degree and Germany ~30%, I assume the amount of people with no education above secondary school is about the same in both countries so Switzerland has 10%(of the pop) more then Germany who make a vocational education.
    Last edited by earthJoker; 06-19-2012 at 05:53 PM.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  24. #24
    Teachers the world over often informally and incompetently "track" students at a very early age with the sort of results one might expect. Given the impact of things like relative age and socioeconomic background on teacher-assessed "smartness" at young ages I would be glad to see an end to formal tracking before highschool.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #25
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Before high school? That seems early.

    Over here it's done when you go to high school (age 11-12), based on a combination of a standardized test and your teacher's evaluation, and then during the first year at high school you can switch tracks based on grades and teacher evaluations. After that, you can still switch, but it's mostly switching down (if for example you keep getting failing grades and you're simply not up for the harder classes). Moving up is harder, and is usually done at the end of high school by repeating your year, but at a higher level. By then the difference is big enough that you won't be doing much over. The result is basically that you finish a higher track, but it takes a year longer.

    More on topic, my mum works are a local lower vocational school, and I know they work together pretty closely with all the bigger companies in the area. For example, the chemical plant pays the school, and offers internships, specialization classes, and stuff like that for the Process Engineering students, car companies do similar things for car mechanics, the nuclear power plant does the same for process engineering, and more specialized classes. The end result is basically that if you are a decent student, you can get a job there when you graduate. And they also offer paid tracks, where you go to school two days a week and work the other three days. Of course that also means if you get fired, you're kicked out of school unless you find a new employer.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Before high school? That seems early.

    Over here it's done when you go to high school (age 11-12)
    That to me is junior high which is still pretty damned early
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #27
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    That to me is junior high which is still pretty damned early
    Ah, thought you meant even before that Yeah, I agree this is early, though the 'final separation' is at ~13 years old. We also have a weird system where the lower tracks in high school last only 4 years (so you're done with high school at 16). That does not mean you are done though, because you are required to go to school until you are 18, or have a 'starting qualification'. So this basically means you either go to a higher track, or go to vocational school.

    The track that leads to academic education takes 6 years in high school though, finishing around 17-18 for most students.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  28. #28
    Yeah, Flixy's high school is the US' middle school. Its still really early to pick a track (I just don't see Brent becoming a tree hugger), but like I mentioned earlier, we have specialized public schools that start as early as 1st grade (6-7 years old)
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •