Results 1 to 27 of 27

Thread: Precedent in the Legal System

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Precedent in the Legal System

    So I was musing on the US legal system just now, and how the abundance of lawyers implies inefficiencies in a society. Most people would be better off if they were able to adequately represent themselves in court, but the preparation and education time makes that prohibitive - adequately defending oneself in court simply isn't possible for most people. This traces back to all the complexity in our legal system. If we were to overhaul the laws, it's possible that we could greatly reduce this problem, but there's still the problem of precedence. You'd still need someone to mine legal archives looking for established precedent, and that's a lot of work and requires training, so we'd still need the same number of lawyers.

    This raises the possibility of removing precedent from importance in our legal system, but doing that sacrifices consistency. So I'm wondering, specifically in regards to the importance of precedent in the legal system, what your thoughts on it are? Is the consistency it brings worth all the extra work it creates when holding trials? Or would we be better off throwing it away, and having each trial look at things purely from the applicable laws and the case at hand, ignoring how things were decided in previous similar cases?

  2. #2
    It's not just consistency; it's also predictability. People and firms want to be confident that action x will have consequence y. If precedent means nothing, then uncertainty increases. And uncertainty means an unwillingness to do anything remotely risky.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Consistency is quite important - if you don't have it, people get angry fast. It's deep-seated in humans, I dare say: programmed.

    It offends our sense of justice if two equal cases do not yield equal results - that can be observed even in infants and apes.

    Conclusion: Precedent can't be done away with.

    edit: Also, what Loki said.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    So I was musing on the US legal system just now, and how the abundance of lawyers implies inefficiencies in a society. Most people would be better off if they were able to adequately represent themselves in court, but the preparation and education time makes that prohibitive - adequately defending oneself in court simply isn't possible for most people. This traces back to all the complexity in our legal system. If we were to overhaul the laws, it's possible that we could greatly reduce this problem, but there's still the problem of precedence. You'd still need someone to mine legal archives looking for established precedent, and that's a lot of work and requires training, so we'd still need the same number of lawyers.

    This raises the possibility of removing precedent from importance in our legal system, but doing that sacrifices consistency. So I'm wondering, specifically in regards to the importance of precedent in the legal system, what your thoughts on it are? Is the consistency it brings worth all the extra work it creates when holding trials? Or would we be better off throwing it away, and having each trial look at things purely from the applicable laws and the case at hand, ignoring how things were decided in previous similar cases?
    I'm less interested in discussing the question of precedent as your points leading up to it. I have no doubt that we have more lawyers than necessary given the complex tangle of laws and regulations extant in our legal system. Yet I'm not sure that it's a reasonable goal to work towards people representing themselves. We hire other people to do plenty of complex tasks for us that could theoretically be done on our own, but they're better/faster at doing. Fundamentally, we don't need accountants or financial advisors or lawyers or primary care physicians - all of the information is publicly available, so why couldn't we figure it out on our own? But specialization brings great savings by allowing other people to focus on what they do best.

    I may agree that the abundance of lawyers in our society implies an overly complex legal system, but I don't think that the existence of lawyers does. We should not aim for people representing themselves in court (outside of, say, small claims courts and the like); that's an inefficient outcome itself. As such, I'm not sure that doing away with precedent is worth it. Obviously the more complex the case (and the legal code behind it), the more hours/lawyers you'll need, so reducing complexity is laudable. Yet we shouldn't cut off our nose to spite our face - as Loki already mentioned, precedent exists for a reason, as do plenty of other parts of our system that add to lawyers' work.

    One other point that I don't think Loki or Khendra really brought up: precedent also is a useful limit on a judge's power. In a system without precedent, the interpretation of the relevant laws lies largely in the judge's purview. Obviously it works for some countries - I believe France has a system largely working without precedent? - but it has its downsides.

    I do wonder how technology has effected the use of precedent. On the one hand, I imagine it has made finding similar cases far easier, reducing the workload on lawyers. On the other hand, it probably also brings up far more related cases than a lawyer would ever have found in the past, meaning they have to sift far more diligently to find the relevant case law. It might also give more weight to finding obscure precedents than in the past, when they wouldn't have ever been found.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It's not just consistency; it's also predictability.
    The first implies the latter. I didn't think it needed to be said.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I'm less interested in discussing the question of precedent as your points leading up to it. I have no doubt that we have more lawyers than necessary given the complex tangle of laws and regulations extant in our legal system. Yet I'm not sure that it's a reasonable goal to work towards people representing themselves.
    I probably wasn't clear; that's not the goal, the possibility is the goal. It should be possible, if it's worth your time, to adequately represent yourself. This isn't the case today. The process of representing yourself should also be made as cheap as possible. There'd still inevitably be a use for lawyers - in some cases, it'd still be more efficient to have someone else represent you, no matter how simple we make that task.

    I do wonder how technology has effected the use of precedent. On the one hand, I imagine it has made finding similar cases far easier, reducing the workload on lawyers. On the other hand, it probably also brings up far more related cases than a lawyer would ever have found in the past, meaning they have to sift far more diligently to find the relevant case law. It might also give more weight to finding obscure precedents than in the past, when they wouldn't have ever been found.
    Before I posted this thread, I'd pretty much decided that we can't possibly get rid of precedent, and had started thinking about how I'd design an expert system to make that task easier, and if we could ever get it down to the point that laymen could use them well enough to adequately represent themselves.

  6. #6
    Khen, isn't the German legal system based on the civil law tradition wherein the importance of precedence--in the form of previous decisions by other judges--is far lower than it is in the common law systems??
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #7
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    In the forests of the night
    Posts
    6,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Khen, isn't the German legal system based on the civil law tradition wherein the importance of precedence--in the form of previous decisions by other judges--is far lower than it is in the common law systems??
    Depends on the level of the court. The lower courts rarely set precedents, it's only when you enter the upper echelons that you get binding precedents.

    It's happened before that a judge of a lower court did a ruling on some case - but also stated explicity that he left it open for appeal so that a higher court could set a binding precedent.

    Also, the federal system means that a decision in Hamburg might not have much of an impact on judges in Munich. There's always the constitutional court, though.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  8. #8
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_l...egal_system%29



    So it's not like there isn't a fairly well-established alternative approach, even if a transition is totally unlikely
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)



    So it's not like there isn't a fairly well-established alternative approach, even if a transition is totally unlikely
    Except In think that insofar as Wraith is concerned, the difference is something of a po-tay-to, po-tah-to thing.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  10. #10
    I disagree with the basic premise that lawyers are a sign of inefficiency. Inconsistency would cause greater inefficiencies.

    I deal with HR issues all the time. A few years ago when it started to become a major part of my job I would call a lawyer before any decision and ask how to proceed, now I don't need to anymore unless its a complicated issue as I understand the basic procedures which are the same every time. That frees me to put more time and effort into my own job, if there was no consistency I'd need more time with lawyers not less.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I disagree with the basic premise that lawyers are a sign of inefficiency. Inconsistency would cause greater inefficiencies.

    I deal with HR issues all the time. A few years ago when it started to become a major part of my job I would call a lawyer before any decision and ask how to proceed, now I don't need to anymore unless its a complicated issue as I understand the basic procedures which are the same every time. That frees me to put more time and effort into my own job, if there was no consistency I'd need more time with lawyers not less.
    You're asserting that consistency is a feature of the presence of large numbers of lawyers, rather than the a feature of the legal system itself?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    You're asserting that consistency is a feature of the presence of large numbers of lawyers, rather than the a feature of the legal system itself?
    Consistency is a feature of a large body of law, be it case-law, codified law, or something else. And larger bodies of law require more specialization than smaller bodies of law and a consequent greater number of lawyers to service it.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Consistency is a feature of a large body of law, be it case-law, codified law, or something else. And larger bodies of law require more specialization than smaller bodies of law and a consequent greater number of lawyers to service it.
    I don't really agree that consistency requires a large body of law, or that large bodies of law require great numbers of lawyers (in both cases, at least to the levels that are currently present - there probably is a minimal size, but I assert that we're not currently there). The whole line of thought came from me trying to find ways to improve both of those, and hitting a roadblock in removing precedence from the system.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I don't really agree that consistency requires a large body of law,
    Oh no, it doesn't. It's easy to devise a smaller legal system that's still consistent. It just won't be fair, just, or reasonable, not if it's supposed to apply to the number of people or endeavors present in today's world.

    or that large bodies of law require great numbers of lawyers
    Now on this one you're just flat wrong. Large bodies of law absolutely do require a great many lawyers.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  15. #15
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...finds-1.376646 New York has the most litigation per capita, and Israel has the most lawyers per capita. I wonder what the common denominator there is.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    So I was musing on the US legal system just now, and how the abundance of lawyers implies inefficiencies in a society. Most people would be better off if they were able to adequately represent themselves in court, but the preparation and education time makes that prohibitive - adequately defending oneself in court simply isn't possible for most people. This traces back to all the complexity in our legal system. If we were to overhaul the laws, it's possible that we could greatly reduce this problem, but there's still the problem of precedence. You'd still need someone to mine legal archives looking for established precedent, and that's a lot of work and requires training, so we'd still need the same number of lawyers.

    This raises the possibility of removing precedent from importance in our legal system, but doing that sacrifices consistency. So I'm wondering, specifically in regards to the importance of precedent in the legal system, what your thoughts on it are? Is the consistency it brings worth all the extra work it creates when holding trials? Or would we be better off throwing it away, and having each trial look at things purely from the applicable laws and the case at hand, ignoring how things were decided in previous similar cases?
    The largest section in our Yellow Pages is Attorneys at Law. There are so many local lawyers and law firms, they take up a few blocks in the city we call "Lawyer's Row". I'd agree we have an over-abundance of lawyers, but it represents social decay (more than inefficiencies), at least in my town. Divorces, DUIs, domestic abuse, assault and battery, drug dealing, vandalism, theft and burglary, rape and murder. Misdemeanors, felonies, civil and criminal law are more common here than contractual disputes or "white collar" lawyering.

    The mining of archives can't possibly keep up with the volume of new cases. Paralegals and clerks end up doing that footwork, but eventually it will have to be digitalized --- no way can Law Libraries become the size of Malls and still be efficient. Once all precedents are computerized and categorized, then JQ Public can feasibly access the same data, like we can with medicine and science now. We'll still need attorneys for their analytical, procedural and tactical skills, especially in high-profile cases and supreme court cases. But we'll need them less for things like Wills, business or property contracts, divorces, etc. Legalzoom.com is already opening up that avenue.

  17. #17
    You said "probably", does that mean not necessarily? If yes, then I think we'll have run out of disagreement.
    When I make a long post, i'm not sure many people read it. So i'll make a short one on this point. I think as society gets complex in it's structure then laws that were simple become complex (think of disputes between unions and corporations or a bankruptcy of a large company) and because of this complexity you'll inevitable have people creating new words in order to talk effectively about the topic and specializing in said topic and this creates a disparity between the layman and the law. It neccessarily does happen in a complex society. However, I agree we could do better and that we could structure ourselves so that many simple and common place disputes that might happen for a person like you or me should be readily analyzable, by us, through a legal lense.

  18. #18
    There should be fewer laws and they should be easy to comprehend by anyone with a high school reading level. Anything more complex needs to be reworked with the simple concept of "Keep It Simple Stupid."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    There should be fewer laws and they should be easy to comprehend by anyone with a high school reading level. Anything more complex needs to be reworked with the simple concept of "Keep It Simple Stupid."
    You can make it linguistically simple but striving for simplicity will inevitably lead to greater ambiguity which would make the simplicity-reform self-defeating.

    That being said:

    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #20
    But we don't live in a simple world, with simplistic laws that cover all bases in societies using ever-changing technologies. We don't have comprehensive laws surrounding the internet....whether those laws are to protect intellectual property, patents, trade agreements, privacy....the provider or the individual. Add to that the complications of national security, or "policing" huge events like the Olympics. Some Brits have missile defense systems on the roof of their apartment buildings. Pretty sure there's no precedent for that.

    Anywho, our legal code could use a good dose of dumping. Or at least archiving with footnotes or something. It's stupid to keep arcane laws on the books, when they've been replaced by modern laws that build on "precedent". Mostly civil laws for things like spitting in public vs requiring a spittoon in every establishment. Or municipal laws banning livestock animals within city limits vs keeping a pet pig, or hens for eggs.
    Last edited by GGT; 07-14-2012 at 03:23 AM.

  21. #21
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #22
    Well, building off those videos, why is it impossible to remove substantial amounts of complexity without eliminating precedents?

    Separately, I think the legal establishment in the US takes steps to increase legal costs. EG why can't undergraduates major in law and then take the bar exam? Why must they spend extra money and time in law schools? Is the bar exam really special, or is it just limiting lawyers to ensure it's a high-price field?

    Spoiler:

    Not enough lawyers?
    Lawyers keep their numbers carefully pruned, pushing up costs
    Sep 3rd 2011

    “OVERLAWYERED” is the name of a widely read blog on America’s legal system, and many Americans feel that way. Yet three economists think the country is actually plagued by too few lawyers, not too many. Clifford Winston and Robert Crandall of the Brookings Institution, a think-tank, and Vikram Maheshri of the University of Houston, published a book last month arguing that barriers to entry have kept the number of lawyers artificially low for decades. This—combined with an economy over-regulated by lawyers who go on to politics—results in an unearned premium on legal wages.

    Three supply barriers bulk largest. The American Bar Association accredits law schools, and in most states you must be a graduate of one of them to practise law. (California, most notably, lets students practise who have passed the bar without attending law school. Pass rates are a respectable 15%, against 30% for graduates of bar-approved law schools.) The authors note that Abraham Lincoln, who practised for decades, and Clarence Darrow, perhaps the most celebrated criminal defender in American history, did not graduate from law school.

    The second hurdle for a would-be lawyer is the bar exam itself. Proponents say it acts as a useful quality control. Opponents say it is a gruelling but useless ritual. In 2005 the dean of Stanford University’s law school, going into private practice, failed it on her first try. So did Benjamin Cardozo, a 1930s Supreme Court justice and prolific scholar, who today has a law school named after him. Today students pay thousands of dollars to study for their bar exams, even after they have finished law school. But even after they pass, the bosses of legal firms note that new hires still need to be taught nearly everything about actual practice on the job.

    Finally, American states do not allow non-lawyers to manage or invest in law firms, nor can companies not run by lawyers practise law in any form. Messrs Winston, Crandall and Maheshri think that—in a more sensible world—banks, consultancies, accountancies and others could hire lawyers and offer a full range of services, including legal ones. And those without the bar exam or law school under their belt could still, with training and experience, dispense routine guidance and offer legal services, such as drafting wills and arranging simple divorces, to poorer clients. Doing so today risks getting a false “lawyer” sent to prison.

    In 2000 the average American law-firm lawyer made $191,000. Exactly comparable numbers are scarce, but the average salary for all lawyers in Canada in 2002 was just $64,000; in Australia in 2000 it was $90,000. American lawyers are clearly reaping some kind of premium, and the economists behind the Brookings study carefully control for a host of factors including long hours, areas of specialisation, and inherent talent. They reckon that of the $170 billion spent on lawyers every year in America, some $64 billion is a premium produced by market distortions. The economy suffers another $10 billion in annual “deadweight” loss—economic activity stifled or deterred by the cost of the system.

    Lawyers promptly filled the American Bar Association’s website with sarcastic comments about the study, musing about extending their practices into surgery and mortgage lending. The Brookings authors acknowledge that the most complex matters will still go to the best-educated and qualified lawyers. But the internet and other tools could allow the average client to survey a much wider range of lawyers’ past work and recommendations.

    Quality control is always imperfect; the current qualification system, after all, lets both incompetent and unethical lawyers through. Mr Winston says that oversight would be a much better method than restrictions on supply. Many clever people are bad at taking tests, or are not able to spend $150,000 on law school. The question is whether the tens of billions of dollars being wasted on the current system are an acceptable cost for keeping a few bad lawyers, alongside many decent ones, from offering their wares.

    http://www.economist.com/node/21528280

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •