Legality of Suicide
We've discussed it before, but it's been a long enough time that I can't remember the details of where people stand on this. Full disclosure: this isn't exactly the topic I wanted to discuss, but it'd be useful to understand this before moving on.
Should suicide be legal?
Yeah
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Yes.
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
Any particular reason it shouldn't be?
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Location? e.g. train tracks?Originally Posted by Steely Glint
If there are methods of suicide that endanger others, then they're already illegal actions in their own right and if they're not they should be.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Agreed. But you were originally meaning in general, not with specifics, weren't you.
Anecdotally, my friend ran into a lady who committed suicide (overdose) in the middle of a state park. Certainly messed up his morning, considering he was an EMT and had to try and get her out of the woods to give her medical attention.
What law is going to effectively stop people from throwing* themselves in front of trains? Its not like you can jail or fine mush, or a vegetable.
*Or walking, jumping, waiting, etc.
. . .
I think the law criminalising suicide is designed for two purposes.
1: To put people off from doing it.
2: So that after someone does it (but fails) the justice system has a legal basis to require someone to seek professional help.
I don't think its intended to prosecute corpses. I support an organised system of physician assisted suicide - preferably with two prior independent physicians/psychiatrists at least one week apart seeing the patient first - rather than our current ad hoc "we'll increase the morphein" version. Not convinced on legalising general suicide.
Yes. Assisted suicide should also be legal. I'll go the next step and say physician assisted suicide should be legal, too.
So what's the "real" topic you wanted to discuss?
I think someone should need to go through some sort of personal therapy if possible, to make sure they fully understand what they are doing. Else we would have no more teenage goths.
After that, I've got no problems with it, I'd even support the construction of their last ride
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
And this is...bad?
Probably too early in the thread to use dark humor, dontyathink?
No?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I don't consider it humor. That coaster was designed specifically to kill people.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
That coaster "ride" also exemplifies many peoples' real life crises. ie, a spike in turmoil, followed by downward-trending spirals and loops. You can't say you'd like suicidal people getting therapy -- insert joke about goth teens -- and then post a graphic roller coaster "designed specifically to kill people".
Really? Why not?
Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita
But was it for whimsy or practice?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
mostly whimsy i believe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_Coaster
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Maybe, after careful review. Only trained professionals may directly assist.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Assuming you're answering Wraithy's original question, what sort of legal ramifications do you suggest to those who attempt to take their own lives without outside review and assistance, and fail?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Free healthcare while waiting for a quick formal review of their informal application?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
If they reject the care?
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
If they're of sound mind and/or likely to soon die after a time of excruciating agony then I may have to respect their decision and help them transition into palliative care
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Maybe. But assisting shouldn't.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I think people are assuming you're talking about suicide, but I suspect you're talking about legal assisted suicide. Is this something you're dealing with?
I was talking about suicide, but that's also because I didn't expect people to be okay with that being legal but against assisted suicide. What's the thought behind that? Why should it be legal to hang yourself in your home, or poke yourself with a knife until you hit a large enough artery, but it should become illegal for a physician to help you do it quickly, cleanly, and painlessly?
Because you can't trust physicians as it is.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The idea behind criminalizing suicide was to allow others to legally intervene, and get them into the mental health system -- even if it was against their will. The goal was to have professionals evaluate them for conditions/diseases that were possibly affecting their judgment, and treating those underlying problems first.
It's hard to imagine a society that would say Free Will and individual choice is sacrosanct, when we know that medications/drugs/trauma/illness/disease can actually damage or alter individual judgment. One of the hardest concepts is defining active vs passive "suicide", and differentiating between healthy lifestyle "norms" and quality of life from their counterparts.
People do self-harm in slow, moderate, or even legal ways: smoking, drinking, over-eating, eating fast food, sedentary lifestyles, unprotected sex, driving recklessly, not wearing helmets or seat belts, getting into relationships with the wrong people, taking on excessive debt, flunking out of school, etc. Those behaviors look more like indulgences (or immature choices) because everyone does something risky, or possibly self-harming, in one way or another. It's part of the Human Condition.
Homeless, "street people", or vagrants can include the mentally ill, drug addicts, runaway youth....but also totally rational adults who choose to live in non-traditional ways. Most of us would call that slow suicide, or think they're crazy to live that way. But then our culture also admires religious vows of poverty or chastity, and doesn't think that's crazy at all.
First because it's just irrational and nonfunctional to illegalize the successful completion of an act that puts one irretrievably beyond the reach of the law.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
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