Are there any good militias in the US??

[Aimless]

"Private" American militias are generally portrayed in movies and TV shows as, well, kinda insane. Are there any non-insane militias in the US, in real life?

[Lewkowski]

I guess you'll need to define "militia."

[LittleFuzzy]

"Private" American militias are generally portrayed in movies and TV shows as, well, kinda insane. Are there any non-insane militias in the US, in real life?

I would say yes but you and I probably have different limits on what is "non-insane" and as Lewk said "militia" is a somewhat elastic term. Either the National Guard or the Reserves could be considered militia and you can stretch it all the way down to a neighborhood watch committee.

[Aimless]

I would say yes but you and I probably have different limits on what is "non-insane" and as Lewk said "militia" is a somewhat elastic term. Either the National Guard or the Reserves could be considered militia and you can stretch it all the way down to a neighborhood watch committee.

As RB clarified, I was talking about insane private armies and should have clarified that in the question.




Here's one thing I don't get:

The US constitution says that Congress has the power

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

and

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress

How does this mesh with some of the pro-gun-rights interpretations presented on this forum? What are these militias and what are their constitutionally defined roles, powers, obligations?

[LittleFuzzy]

As RB clarified, I was talking about insane private armies and should have clarified that in the question.

I don't think there is an organization in the US right now that could be considered a private army and militia. I could be wrong on that point or I could be misinterpreting what you mean by private army. Also possible is that you don't have a very clear conception yourself of what you mean by "private army."

How does this mesh with some of the pro-gun-rights interpretations presented on this forum? What are these militias and what are their constitutionally defined roles, powers, obligations?

Those militias? That's the National Guard. The US professionalized its military in the fifty-year period between the Civil War and WWI, initiated by Army Chief of Staff William Sherman and heavily influenced by the work done by General Emory Upton, as much of Western Europe was doing or had done already. Part of that was assimilating the various state militias into the current National Guard system in the early 1900s, before WWI. I believe the current governing law is known as Title 10 in the federal code. The legislation enacted back in 190-something radically overhauled the system *which Congress had the right to do according to that clause about "organizing" the Militia* I seem to vaguely recall that Selective Service *i.e. being enrolled in the Draft* constitutes being some kind of unformed militia. I know there are a couple of non-NG state-organized defense groups but I don't recall if or how they are related to that Constitutional clause nor do I know to what extent they are governed by Title 10 legislation.

For the purely private militias, they have no constitutionally-recognized roles, powers, or obligations at the present time. The Constitution governs the US and state governments, not private behavior, and private militias are just that, private. What protections they have from government interference are the same protections every US citizen is supposed to have. Due Process, freedom of assembly, the "penumbral" right of association, etc. Whether they are not insane or not depends on your view of insanity. It is almost always the case that they are somewhat anti-government. That is almost tautological since if someone was completely happy with and willing to rely on the government they'd have no interest in or reason to join a private militia. It used to be they were predominantly racist as well since the last time the movement gained a lot of traction was when the Feds were forcing racial integration but I don't know if that's still the case or not.

[Kazuha Vinland]

When we had Americans coming over here to learn about winter combat, I got to sit down in a crowd of them and talk. I cannot say I got the impression that they were all that different to us. No crazed attitude about shooting people being a kick, nor labeling ally and enemy without seeing contrast. It would seem that they, like us, had gotten intensive courses on war morals and how to treat it respectfully.

There are parts of the U. S. military though that largely differ from ours. The drill instructors primarily. They seem to think that yelling at a person till he gets so afraid that he won't ever bark back, is a good idea for obedience. Our Sergeants were harsh, but fair. If someone in the troop messed up, it would give the troop a collective punishment. It was emberassing, so you would try not to screw up again. But they did never call anyone out and humiliate them in front of the rest with name-calling and other character breaking speech.



This being a good example.

[Spenni]

When we had Americans coming over here to learn about winter combat, I got to sit down in a crowd of them and talk. I cannot say I got the impression that they were all that different to us. No crazed attitude about shooting people being a kick, nor labeling ally and enemy without seeing contrast. It would seem that they, like us, had gotten intensive courses on war morals and how to treat it respectfully.

There are parts of the U. S. military though that largely differ from ours. The drill instructors primarily. They seem to think that yelling at a person till he gets so afraid that he won't ever bark back, is a good idea for obedience. Our Sergeants were harsh, but fair. If someone in the troop messed up, it would give the troop a collective punishment. It was emberassing, so you would try not to screw up again. But they did never call anyone out and humiliate them in front of the rest with name-calling and other character breaking speech.



This being a good example.

Oh it doesn't end with drill instructors you get yelled at and smoked at your regular unit too. I remember i had to hold radio batteries in front of me for an hour and half once, because i couldn't put a radio together in 2 minutes..

needless to say after that i had together in a 1 minute 34 seconds.

[Lewkowski]

When we had Americans coming over here to learn about winter combat, I got to sit down in a crowd of them and talk. I cannot say I got the impression that they were all that different to us. No crazed attitude about shooting people being a kick, nor labeling ally and enemy without seeing contrast. It would seem that they, like us, had gotten intensive courses on war morals and how to treat it respectfully.

There are parts of the U. S. military though that largely differ from ours. The drill instructors primarily. They seem to think that yelling at a person till he gets so afraid that he won't ever bark back, is a good idea for obedience. Our Sergeants were harsh, but fair. If someone in the troop messed up, it would give the troop a collective punishment. It was emberassing, so you would try not to screw up again. But they did never call anyone out and humiliate them in front of the rest with name-calling and other character breaking speech.


This being a good example.

I'm not a military expert but if you can't stand being yelled at you probably shouldn't be anywhere near a combat zone.

[GGT]

I would say yes but you and I probably have different limits on what is "non-insane" and as Lewk said "militia" is a somewhat elastic term. Either the National Guard or the Reserves could be considered militia and you can stretch it all the way down to a neighborhood watch committee.

As Rand said, the distinction is what's private or public. Those interactions, and their legal overlaps, are important.

That's why a "private neighborhood watch" that gets 'training' from public police forces, and/or uses police scanners, is such a grey area. BTW, it's now one year since the Martin/Zimmerman incident.

Too bad that guy Mishka doesn't post anymore. There's a small chance he would be joining an anti-government militia by now.

I was thinking the same about Cain.

[RandBlade]

I'm guessing that by private militias he means the sort-of "private armies" that are almost invariably portrayed as corrupt/bad/criminal/whatever in TV shows varying from 24 to Bones and more. I don't know if there's any 'reality' TV shows showing genuine/non-fictional 'insane' private militias.

The National Guard may be a militia but they're not private are they? They report to government not shareholders.

[Loki]

Militias are military groups that aren't under the direct control of the federal government. Each state historically had its own militia. Some still do today (even outside of the national guard).

[RandBlade]

They may be militias but they're not private they're State-ran. Unless I misunderstood Minx he asked about private militias not State militias. The implication was in the context of '"private"'

As often used nephariously as plot points typically as negatives.

EDIT: This is an example of what I'm thinking of, the fictional private military company Starkwood that were one of the primary antagonists of 24 Day 7 and had been involved in other seasons as conspirators before then. http://24.wikia.com/wiki/Starkwood

[Dreadnaught]

Too bad that guy Mishka doesn't post anymore. There's a small chance he would be joining an anti-government militia by now.

[Veldan Rath]

Cain does not strike me as a joiner of that stripe.

[GGT]

What about the private militias that "patrol" borders with Mexico? Arizona comes to mind. Gov. Brewer has given leeway to "private" militias, treating them as extensions of state power. Sheriff Arpaio is another Arizona oddity, who seems to use his public authority to act like a private enforcement militia.

[LittleFuzzy]

What about the private militias that "patrol" borders with Mexico? Arizona comes to mind. Gov. Brewer has given leeway to "private" militias, treating them as extensions of state power. Sheriff Arpaio is another Arizona oddity, who seems to use his public authority to act like a private enforcement militia.

State rules and authority are not federal rules and authority. Minx asked "what are their constitutionally defined roles, powers, obligations?" If you want to ask me about private militias vis a vis each specific state I have a simple and easy answer for you. "Beats me."

[Dreadnaught]

What kind of leeway has she given?

[GGT]

(Turning a blind eye to militia-type "border patrol" guys armed with guns.)

Tonight I heard about a study conducted by the Southern Poverty Law Center, highlighting the rapid growth in US hate groups, radical extremists...and private Militias. The kind of groups that stockpile weaponry and have an activist, militant agenda.

I haven't checked it out yet (or the recent Oberlin College incidents) but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that we've put more manpower and funding into finding "terrorists" with Arab names, or Islamic connections, than finding the white/Christian/anarchist/militant "terrorists" in our midst....

[Lewkowski]

(Turning a blind eye to militia-type "border patrol" guys armed with guns.)

Tonight I heard about a study conducted by the Southern Poverty Law Center, highlighting the rapid growth in US hate groups, radical extremists...and private Militias. The kind of groups that stockpile weaponry and have an activist, militant agenda.

I haven't checked it out yet (or the recent Oberlin College incidents) but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that we've put more manpower and funding into finding "terrorists" with Arab names, or Islamic connections, than finding the white/Christian/anarchist/militant "terrorists" in our midst....

9/11.

I'm not saying there aren't any home grown terrorists but... the comparison to Islamic Terrorism in terms of scale, scope and organization is ridiculous.

[GGT]

9/11.

I'm not saying there aren't any home grown terrorists but... the comparison to Islamic Terrorism in terms of scale, scope and organization is ridiculous.

Got a citation to back that up?

Who tried to assassinate President Reagan? Who blew up the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma? Who was involved in Waco or Ruby Ridge? Who's been responsible for mass killings in Malls, Schools, movie theaters, or places of worship? Certainly not "Islamic Terrorists".

Try again.

[Enoch the Red]

Got a citation to back that up?

Who tried to assassinate President Reagan? Who blew up the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma? Who was involved in Waco or Ruby Ridge? Who's been responsible for mass killings in Malls, Schools, movie theaters, or places of worship? Certainly not "Islamic Terrorists".

Try again.

You may want to refresh your memory about what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Especially the latter.

The overwhelming majority of mass shootings also couldn't be considered organized in any meaningful way.

[GGT]

You may want to refresh your memory about what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Especially the latter.

The overwhelming majority of mass shootings also couldn't be considered organized in any meaningful way.

They also can't be attributed to "Islamic Terrorists".

[Lewkowski]

Got a citation to back that up?

Who tried to assassinate President Reagan? Who blew up the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma? Who was involved in Waco or Ruby Ridge? Who's been responsible for mass killings in Malls, Schools, movie theaters, or places of worship? Certainly not "Islamic Terrorists".

Try again.

Lone crazies aren't terrorists. The crazy nut who goes shooting at people certainty isn't an organized threat. Every crazy gunman isn't a terrorist either - their murder spree has to be tied to a political gain for it to be an act of terrorism.

Now compare it to Islamic terrorism. LARGE organizations that had/have the backing of governments. Training grounds. The ability to make simultaneous attacks on multiple targets (9/11 for example). Compare that to random gunmen? Please not even close. That's like saying the school bully is equivalent to a serial killer.

[LittleFuzzy]

[QUOTE=GGT;134359]

Who tried to assassinate President Reagan? [quote]

A lone nut.

Who blew up the Murrah federal building in Oklahoma?

Two nuts who may have been affiliated with militias at points in their past but who were definitely alone when they perpetrated the largest *later the second-larget* terrorist attack in US history.

Who was involved in Waco or Ruby Ridge?

For the former it was a cult that could not in any way be properly described as a private militia. Ruby Ridge is definitely more militia-tinged but even with the militia ties it was all one family rather than a militia organization and most of the blame and responsibility for events there is on the Feds. Waco was a mess on all sides but Ruby Ridge was flat mishandled and was initiated by semi-abusive federal antics in the first place. That's the conclusion reached by militia groups, the media, the DoJ's OPR investigation, and the Senate subcommittee hearings.

Who's been responsible for mass killings in Malls, Schools, movie theaters, or places of worship? Certainly not "Islamic Terrorists".

I'm not aware of a single mass-killing of this sort in the US that was not performed by people acting on their own, in almost all cases people with significant mental problems.

[Loki]

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2011...militia_092211

[GGT]

http://www.splcenter.org/home/2013/s...-and-extremism

[Flixy]

In a time of war, surely anyone can be conscripted anyway, including militias?

[LittleFuzzy]

In a time of war, surely anyone can be conscripted anyway, including militias?

Not quite, not under current law. There's an age limit, 18-30 or 40 something and it's still just males. It's that bit about how enrollment in the Selective Service system constitutes an unorganized militia.

[ar81]

As I see it a private militia is a bunch of guys with guns and a nasty purpose, because the only use of guns is to hurt people.

[Veldan Rath]

How nicely simplistic.