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It's time to ramble on!
Wait, I started with a Zep song where Plant has Gollum stealing a girl from Mordor? Doomed from the start....
I've been doing some thinking. Specifically, Lolli started me doing some thinking. Now, she says in two places, the Zogby thread and a pm, that she took no offense whatsoever about us discussing sexual predilections. Yet that rings very false, because she says repeatedly for me to leave her alone about that stuff. So, mixed message.
But it made me realize something. I am at the point that Lolli, whose sexual preferences I'd gone out of my why to support against personal attacks, automatically thought that I was being a judgmental bastard when the subject came up with her. And she thinks this because this is what she thinks of my personality; a default assumption of meaning based on previous events? Given what she has witnessed of me, this is how she interprets my statements. And this tells me that I have gone WAY off base here. If a good person like Lolli has a default interpretation of me that is like that, then I am a failure here. So let that be the first preamble. She's the canary in the coal mine, the bellweather. Rather than fighting with me, she saw something I posted that made her really defensive. But the fact is that I would never be anything but respectful on a topic like that. And thus it's pretty clear that ugliness is what people have come to expect from me, even somebody as easygoing and forgiving as Lolli. And so they see it when it's not even there. That should be a big clue that something is very wrong.
The second preamble is that's I'll try to avoid too much navel examination, though I'll fail in that also. I somehow think it would be viewed, through my own fault, as self-serving martyr complex, and probably be widely mocked. Hmm. Not probably, certainly, the cynical community being what it is, and judging by how my sincerity is received. So, I'll try to walk a line of people having some sense of my motivations, but not having to put up with pages of maudlin self-abnegnation that they will mock anyway. Brevity is the soul of wit, etc. Great saying which I've never managed to incorporate into my life.
To wit, my personality, my stage in life, and my posting style seem to be spectacularly poorly suited to internet debate in this kind of intimate community. Furthermore, perhaps I'm too hidebound or stubborn to change that style. Or maybe what I need from CC isn't compatible with changing the style.
Here in CC, I just say whatever I feel. It's frequently blunt or judgmental, but there's often sound reasoning behind it. It's not like I'm saying, "The best color is blue! BLUE!" For example, I tell Chaloobi that a 6000 sq. ft house is stupid conspicuous consumption. I consider this as obvious as saying that buying a Hummer H2 is stupid conspicuous consumption. Furthermore, I consider the sharing of that ostentation to be very annoying somehow. Braggadocio? Hell, I don't know. But it jibed poorly with three beliefs: a) how I was raised to believe that excess was ugly and crass, b) that real people with wealth don't flaunt it, but use it for the things that matter, and often invest/save it, and c) that the housing boom and BIG America are emblematic of a lot of the worst traits of this country. I think this is a relatively well-supported opinion, though obviously only that: an opinion. {Disclaimer: sorry Chaloobi. You're a nice guy and I appreciate that, but this was just a simple example that people would understand. I haven't said anything that I didn't say before, for what it's worth. And I need a couple of examples to illustrate what I mean. My most recent imbroglios are the best examples, right? So, sucks for you. Go walk around your exceptionally large house to make yourself feel batter. And to get some aerobic exercise.}
Anyway, that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? Because I was widely reviled for stating this opinion, I was asked to prove it and challenged from every which direction. Loki agreed we with me, but he wisely just said, yeah, that's conspicuous consumption. But he's smart and just walks away. I'm not, so I will stick by this opinion, even though it's mean to say it. And that’s the problem in a nutshell. Loki gets it, I don’t.
Here is the disconnect with my real life. In real life, I'm very caring about the sensibilities of the people with whom I interact. I'm rarely abrasive, I'm a little opinionated but always stop short of being boorish, I'm a little edgy but not too much, and I'm a little funny but not a jokester. I'm far from being the coolest guy, having a significant but not excessive dose of geekiness, but I'm widely liked and respected. I don't have enemies, and I can't think of anybody who dislikes me. I just don't engender those feelings in people. It does say something that about 40 people offered to donate a kidney to me. 40! (Many were excluded for various medical reasons, incompatible blood type taking care of two thirds of them right off that bat) I think that says something about how I've led my life, but it also is a jarring disconnect with how I'm regarded here, isn't it? It's a profound disconnect. It's suggests that something went catastrophically wrong.
So that brings me to reflecting on why I'm at the point where I am universally disliked here in CC/THW. I look around and I see some members who seem to have much less humanistic (I hate that word) values. They might not garner much affection, but there's a modicum of respect for them that I have squandered. And it's because of my style.
I told myself I'd just post unexpurgated opinions in CC. They're well-reasoned opinions for the most part, but merely opinions. This was my alter-ego. Same values as RL, but just say whatever I believe without any social editing. There's something liberating about that, because we never do that in society. I was brought up never to discuss politics or religion in polite company, and that has been a really good rule of thumb for me in RL. It seemed that this was a good forum for that.
Second, I just speak whatever I'm feeling, and don't calculate how it will play to the audience. So, probably nobody here believes it, but I suspect I'm one of the more honest posters here. There are some others, like sweet-natured GGT, but they get treated pretty poorly when they post that way. Yes, there's irony here, because I presented a facsimile of myself here for years. But aside from some modest embellishing of the backstory, the opinions expressed were always exactly what I was feeling. When I post here, it is really what I'm feeling, and always has been. I edit little, and I don't second guess or calibrate the message for anybody.
But therein lies the problem. I think that these traits are profoundly poorly suited for internet debate. Because those who do best in this context do NOT speak honestly or emotionally. I'm not saying they lie. I'm saying they hide their feelings, or are at least very careful about how those feelings are presented. So posts are strategic and calculated. Calibrated. Witty, ironic repartees or clever lolcatz are the medium of exchange. This is what creates teflon forumers. Some people are so far buried behind clever banter and deflecting humor that you have no idea whatsoever who they are. You like them (or maybe not), and first and foremost they are very funny and entertaining. But they are never real, because that is far too vulnerable to attack, too irrational. {This isn't entirely true, and there are obvious exceptions. Many people will reveal small parts of their souls here, but such revelations are demarcated from any kind of debate, and usually sequestered in a distinct thread}. I'm incapable of this: it's full blast in any contest.
Second, many calculate their posts to what will best fit their argument. In fact, I'd say the main purpose of the forum is to score debating points and to draw LOLz. I am virtually certain that the responses to this point will illustrate that point, though maybe my saying so will defuse some of that. Regardless, I operate very poorly in this oeuvre. While I have some subtlety, and appreciate that trait, I am terrible at plotting a course. I just kind of bull through life as a friendly what-you-see-is-what-you-get guy. A version of how I see Ogre in this forum, though of course we have radically different styles of posting. I'm a very talented person in some regards, but I'm a retard in this. Heck, I may even be mildly autistic. I just can't do it, and it's a trainwreck if I try to do it. I'd fail miserably as a spy, or as a politician. CC is VERY political. Note: none of this is meant to be pejorative. It's just an observation of what goes on in CC, and because I am relatively tone-deaf wrt this jousting, I do pretty poorly at it. But I'm absolutely convinced of this. I won't name any names, but think about various forum personalities. For most (but not all!), you have an idea of what their values are. But you have no sense of their personalities, do you? I can't betray any confidences, but I even know that some have some huge things going on in their lives, and never reveal it. Suave repartee, remember. Ironic little drops of forum drollity.
The other problems are some quirks I have: temper, pride, inability to tolerate smirches on my character. I was taught young to walk a strong path that is true to myself, and never let anybody mess with me. EVER. This has actually worked great for me in real life, especially for a guy who can't manipulate people. I stay very true to myself, people know and respect me for who I am, and my interpersonal relations are substantial and satisfying. I am a genuine person, and people know that. (It will surprise nobody that I end up a wallflower at parties where I don't know anybody. I fail miserably at chitchat and such stuff).
I'm also like the stereotypical Democrat, in that I explain too much. I get enthusiastic about explaining the details of my reasoning and opinions, how I FEEL about these things. Maybe I need somebody to see those things But that is disastrous here. Hardly anybody else does this, and those who do get raked over the coals. It's stupid. I should spend the same amount of time crafting a short, clever statement that zings, but doesn't have ambiguity or handholds for somebody else to tear it down. But I fail miserably at that. I often post from the heart and in stream-of-conscious. Bad move. Sound bites.
But it is actually what I need from CC. It's just that the need fits very poorly with the culture. That's the catch. Why am I here? And here's where I try to adhere to preamble 2 and not try to analyze too much. Let's just say that I think everybody here has a special reason for coming to a community like this. It ain't normal, and it probably ain't too healthy. For me, I think there are frustrations that are relieved by posting here. Part of it probably a need to be heard. I have no venue for expressing tons of opinions and ideas. Here I do. Another part is anger and frustration. You can't shout at a bus driver about the stupidity that was the Iraq war. You can't shout at your friends about that, even though you are agonized and overwrought about the horrific waste and strategic catastrophe. But you can yell at some guy across the country who is probably an ordinary bloke, but is a prick for the moment because he disagrees with your strong feelings that need to be let out.
Anyway, that's probably enough of my lame speculation as to what drives me to come here. It would be moronic to try to guess what satisfies others about this experience. Yet I'll add one thing that is personal. It may apply to others, or it may not. I'm isolated in real life. If been chronically ill with CFIDS for 13 years, and since I'm always tired that curtailed our social life. And then over the last two years I've been a mess. End stage renal failure, 8 trips to the ER, 3 surgeries in a year, 2 of them very serious. Also writing grants (and I got the big one!), writing papers, being too sick.... I don't interact with people much outside of the home, and when I do I can't go nuts. My wife is a great companion, but a) she can only do so much, b) I'm tried to shelter her from the worst of the stress in my life, because she has her own problems and because health problems are harder on the loved ones than the victim, and c) because she's never liked debating, and hates it when I get all wound up about it. Nobody wants to be preached at. So, it comes blasting in here like a fire hose, and relieves the pressure. That's not an excuse. Because I was confrontational enough a few years back. But it has gotten worse, hasn't it, even without Cain to bait me? And let’s face it, I’m a fantastic target for trolling.
So, to summarize, the community serves a need for me. It is part human contact, part venting. We vent about a lot of "issues," but let's recognize that at least for me, on top of that I'm venting because of some serious stresses in my life, which over the last couple of years became horrific. But I am constitutionally horribly suited for this community. Seriously, I don't think you could design somebody more likely to fail here. Very opinionated, smart enough to know a lot about stuff and stupid enough to try to act like a knowitall, wired to lay it all out there willy nilly, proud and stubborn as hell, and takes offense and holds grudges/remembers slights. Catastrophe!
This last fiasco is a classic Tear muddle. First, I shouldn't care what Loki called me. He baits people to win debates, and I shouldn't care regardless of the source. Second, my ire was justified (but as I said, unreasonable). At least some people see that the rapist stuff was way out of line. But because it's me and because of how I conduct myself, many don't buy it. And then why do I even feel the need for an apology? It's an asshole on the internet! Second, there's the racist stuff. Sure, in that thread I called Loki a racist. Of course, over the prior few months, he had called me one multiple times for challenging Israel and how many American Jews respond to Israel questions. More importantly, in another thread I had pointed out to him a series of comments about blacks that seriously seemed racist to me (around the election, mind you. Some of you may remember Loki's ire that American blacks always vote democrat, and voted for a black candidate). I think there was a lot of insidious and classic modern US racism there. So IMO I was totally justified. But can I prove it with an internet legal brief? Nope. I wanted to make it between me and Loki, because he knows damned well what he has posted (and will snake out of it here). But things don't work that way. Everybody else jumps in, Loki artfully withdraws and allows himself to be cast as a victim because of my "unsubstantiated claims" and "violent threats." In the real world, some guy says some stuff about you, and you DO have a discussion, just the two of you. No need for violence. But he knows what he's said, and you know what he's said, and you discuss it for 10-15 minutes, say "hey, we'll avoid this stuff or settle it in a private discussion next time," and then move on. It doesn't work that way here, and I fail at every level. I shouldn't get into it, I get into it the wrong way, and then I persist to try to convince people that I'm right, when I really shouldn't care and am rapidly starting to look wrong to others.. Fact is, I know when I'm right, though occasionally I'm wrong. But because of my persistent incompetence in this medium I might as well be wrong every single time. History is written by the victors.
A perfect storm of internet forum incompetence.
Accumulate enough of those trainwrecks, and everybody assumes a certain outcome before it even starts. And so they'll pile on etc etc. And it's all my fault, because I seem too retarded to even understand the rules by which the game is played. It really is a bizarre form of internet autism.
Posting here is also a great drag on me. I spend way too much time, and it's not time I have given my health and my insane Quixote persistence in trying to hold down this job given my health. Furthermore, CC was never terribly satisfying. Like eating something full of splenda or that faux fat stuff. How come it didn't fill me up? Very intellectually stimulating, yet I feel empty when I'm done. And I crave more!
No, not healthy for me, especially considering the serious handicaps I have. I'm at (I hope and pray) the end of a horrific health odyssey, and I should improve from here (of course, that's what I thought two surgeries ago). I'm at a low point in my life, because each health event knocks me further and further off balance. It will take me years to get solidly back on two feet, or maybe I never quite will be, because after all I still have CFIDS, and other potential problems are there. With all that as a backdrop, this community has been a catastrophe for me.
It's best that I recognize this as a failure. I've never really failed at something. I've been good or great at almost everything I've tried. But I really suck at this, don't I? Because I came into it really being open and transparent (yes, despite the minor identity lie, which if you understand it you get that it didn't interfere with honesty at all.) Yet I came out being almost despised, which is utterly foreign to me and completely unlike my real life. I was a bit of a golden boy when younger, and even in my health-handicapped middle age, I'm mostly loved. I know this. 40 offered organs proves I must have lived my life right. Yet here I am anathema. Again, a perfect storm, and nobody to blame but myself. And I want to make that clear. It's pretty obvious by my reception that I've got it all wrong. I don't think it's a horrible character flaw, but I think it's how my particular human flaws interact with this particular medium. I'm like an idiot-savant. Again, that autism metaphor resurfaces. In this context, I am tone deaf to society. For what it's worth, I was actually right in that racism/rapist thread. But that is meaningless, and so I am wrong.
Why not just change? I've tried. It's somehow not satisfying the need. Less filling than it already is? Besides, the stage is already set. I've painted a target on my ass. Let's not pretend that either *I* can change, or that others will treat me differently. It would take a herculean effort to shift the course of this river, I'd get little help, and I'd likely fail anyway.
So blah blah blah here's the departure part. I really should leave. It serves some sort of junkie need for me, but it's most certainly not good for me. If I *need* this from the internet, then there's something emotionally wrong with me. Because if my life were structured appropriately, RL should be enough. Given this, my clear anger issues revealed here, and given my brutal health experiences, I doubtllessly need to get into some sort of therapy. Hard to get the energy to start it, but supposedly it will pay for itself in the end.
Maudlin, wants attention, martyr etc etc. That's the Catch-22 with this post. Because of the nature of CC, people will see this as some sort of gambit. Since there's a lot of cynicism and calculating here, people will view this post through that lens. But it's actually sincere. Almost all of it has been sincere, actually. All along. And the failure is illustrated by the fact that nobody believes that. And I find myself in the strange and disgustingly teen milieu of saying "nobody understand me!" Gah. But it's true. Almost nobody gets an autistic or Asperberg's guy either, yet I'll assume they're usually genuine, and I know there's something going on there. I was walking to the car last night at maybe 8 pm, after my first graduate students defended her thesis. And I was thinking about what the interaction with Lolli illustrated, and what my response should be. In terms of the debate and hand, saying "I was wrong" would be a lie. I wasn't, though nobody believes me. Where I'm wrong is being here in the first place. Why I'm here, and how I'm here. But no other way of being here seems natural. I've actually tried the other way: the clever repartee and one liners. I can actually do it, though not nearly as well as others. But it feels totally wrong. And dissatisfying. I think in part it is emotional troubles I have. The stubbornness and pride I was raised with, and the frustration and anger over my health (and its many repercussions) has introduced into my life. But the biggest problem is that I am horribly suited to interpersonal interaction of this sort. But since I seem to do pretty well in real life, I might not be that bad. 40 donors can't all be wrong, right? But I've always thought in science that if a project is going to fail, you need to get out before you throw good money after bad. Well, I'm bailing way too late on this project.
And no Lolli, I've never cheated on my wife. That just popped into my head; I can't even remember why you asked. That fact that you even did probably speaks volumes. I don't yell at her or hit her either. I treasure her, because she's my light. Couldn't leave THAT particular question hanging.
So, I hope to move on and never come back, not even to check responses to this thread. Without a doubt that would be best for me. Dread would be kind to ban my account to help me kick this addiction. Yes, it's merely psychological, but it would actually help. Trust me, and please do me that one favor.
So let's spare us all any adieus etc. Sort through your own reactions to this evolution, and assume I'll never see it. If I have enough of a spine, I won't.
And the reason I made the thread was two-fold. First, I think I owe it to people. If I've been that unpleasant, and it appears that I have, then they deserve and apology and explanation. That seems fair. I am sorry if I've actually hurt anybody beyond some bruises and scrapes. Second, at the selfish level, this is therapeutic. At root this is an emotional issue, and this is how I start dealing with it. The rest will happen elsewhere, because it is mine, not yours. Third, since I failed so spectacularly to do so, but it was what I was trying to do all along, I wanted to give a sense of what I am about. This rings true to me. I think this is why things have played out the way they have, and I take full responsibility for my end of it. I am neither whining nor asking for forgiveness. But maybe some of you will say, "Huh, I see who he is and how he was trying to conduct himself." I do this because I feel pretty misunderstood, and that this is my last shot at being understood. I could struggle and fuss here for a long time, and it would be a total waste. So, this is out there, and some can take something from it. Or not. I suspect it will flop. Really, the premise being that I'm tone deaf and don't get how to communicate here, I somehow hit a home run at the end? Pff. So for some this will warrant a final facepalm, and maybe even fighting monkeys. But it's closure, ain't it? It's closure for me, and I felt obligated to provide some closure for you. And I ordered a lot of stuff in my head. I feel relieved. Like Bilbo, I am free of the Ring and I can now go off to Rivendell and get really fucking old.
I can't imagine why there would be a pressing need for anybody to get hold of me. But if so, I believe Dread or Munchie know where I can be found while maintaining my confidentiality. Both had contact info since before my transplant, and thus they got updates on my status. And thanks for the unfailingly cheerful encouragement, Munch!
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Originally Posted by ']['ear
I can relate to almost all of it---how to use this place and why, a certain degree of real life isolation.
