It's a stupid question with an obvious answer, but let's see what the poll says.
Which is real, people or money?
It's a stupid question with an obvious answer, but let's see what the poll says.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
You might be better off asking which is more important.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
People with the most money are the most valued. Followed by the people who make the income and tax rules. Then lobbyists and corporate lawyers, the ones who maneuver for monied interest.
Without money, I can't make it rain
Is importance real?Originally Posted by EyeKhan
Is value real?
Have you tried?
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Yes.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
I'm confused then. Is this a stoner thread?
Of course money has a value, and value is real. Just because it's relative doesn't make it non-existent.....
This is not a stoner thread. Value is ostensible. Are people?I'm confused then. Is this a stoner thread?
Of course money has a value, and value is real. Just because it's relative doesn't make it non-existent.....
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Can you maybe post something longer than one sentence that doesn't really say anything, Being? I don't understand what you want to talk about.
Can something contrived be considered real?Can you maybe post something longer than one sentence that doesn't really say anything, Being? I don't understand what you want to talk about.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Sure. Why wouldn't it be REAL? I can trade you my pooka shell necklace for a bottle of rum, both have a value. If you really want my pooka shells more than your rum or think it's and equal value barter....
Does the difference in value exist when the rum is gone?
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Depends on what I do with the rum. Maybe I use it to cook with, a little at a time, and others love my cooking and give me other things in exchange. Then I can get more rum, or move onto a rare fruit to put in recipes.
Or I could use it to sterilize my knife before I cut off that nasty growth on a guy's leg.
Just because it's eventually consumed doesn't mean it disappeared or isn't REAL. It takes a new form or shape, and new value.
I really don't know what you're asking though. Virtual value? Representative value?
Does my money in the bank mean it's not REAL just because it isn't really a little box with my name on it, holding coins and tangible things? I get a statement, representing what's in there. I can trade that around without having to use REAL coins.
Just like I'm pretty sure you PEOPLE are real, by reading what's typed. It represents a real person, even if I can't see or touch you. You could die and evaporate tomorrow, but that doesn't mean you weren't real.
Yeah but aren't you a Solipsist, eyecandy? This thread could get really strange.
No, I'm not. Nor am I a narcissist.Yeah but aren't you a Solipsist, eyecandy? This thread could get really strange.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
If you remove the ability of money to be exchanged, world economy would be an online game, like Eve Online.
---------------------
BBC: Billions stolen in online robbery:
Space trading game Eve Online has suffered a virtual version of the credit crunch.
BBC: Money matters in Eve Online game :
But the harsh realities of space commerce have not lead Dr Gudmundsson to embrace Eve style laissez-faire economics in the real world. "It has sharpened my view on neoclassical economics, at the same time I do see the faults of that system. Personally I am very fond of the Scandinavian model, a good combination of healthy competition whereas the government helps those in need."
---------------------
Money is no longer paper and coins, it is a magnetic signal.
If your account had 3 extra zeros, you'd be 1000 times richer. This number is just a score, like in Pacman.
People live and die, kill and get killed for just a concept.
If you ever imagined to be trapped in a videogame where you are powerless to escape, welcome to world economy.
Money isn't real anymore. It is quasimoney, its essence, which is only a concept. But even money has no value by itself. If you print lots of quasidollars, dollar value will fall, so your dollars become devaluated. There is no universal value since money can be created.Does my money in the bank mean it's not REAL just because it isn't really a little box with my name on it, holding coins and tangible things? I get a statement, representing what's in there. I can trade that around without having to use REAL coins.
Just like I'm pretty sure you PEOPLE are real, by reading what's typed. It represents a real person, even if I can't see or touch you. You could die and evaporate tomorrow, but that doesn't mean you weren't real.
Money is an instrument of social control. If I have money, I can control society more than if I have no money. You could pay someone to kill and he will be under your control. A poor starved person may be willing to obey for a low wage since money is the obstacle between him and food at the supermarket.
Banks have become a monopoly that controls money supply.
Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.
Can't say that I have ever imagined that. Also wouldn't call that very representative of The World Economy.
I could be persuaded to imagine being the player, but that means I can exit, shut down, turn it off. Or play a different game. If I don't like virtual or digital, I can pull out a game board or deck of cards, things I hold in my hands and don't 'disappear' when I turn off the computer.
Is this thread about defining Real as only things we can see and touch....and only those things have value.....? That makes no sense. I'm positive there are billions of people "out there", even tho I've never seen or touched them.
edit to Being: rum is a real physical thing, but if I don't value it for anything, then it's just junk.
Now you're getting it; value is not real. Took you long enough.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Now you're getting it; value is not real. Took you long enough.
Value is Real. Seems what you're trying to say is that people often value their own money over valuing other people, unless they can make them more money. You could have just said so instead of turning this into a guessing game.
And then she steps back...
Value is Real.
Value is contrived.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
I think value is all in our heads, as a cultural collective. After all, wtf is so valuable about a diamond??? Oooh, sparkly.
Value is Real. Seems what you're trying to say is that people often value their own money over valuing other people, unless they can make them more money. You could have just said so instead of turning this into a guessing game.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
You never touch money. A credit card is not money, just a carrier. A bill or a coin are just a carrier too.
Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.
what? grrr, take that to the singles or doubles threads then (another thing I don't really understand....)
VALUE is not all in our heads. Diamonds are valuable because they're hard to mine, very hard to craft (just ask Bitter), and only the descriminating eye can tell if it's cubic zirconia (synthetic). Diamonds are used in special tools because they can cut glass and other materials, without being destroyed. ie they've been around 'forever' and last longer. Diamond dust is probably also valuable. At least it can be formed into another useful compound, unlike other fossil products that become pollution when burned....?
No, this is a valid discussion. Value is only in our heads. If we don't exist does value?what? grrr, take that to the singles or doubles threads then (another thing I don't really understand....)
VALUE is not all in our heads. Diamonds are valuable because they're hard to mine, very hard to craft (just ask Bitter), and only the descriminating eye can tell if it's cubic zirconia (synthetic). Diamonds are used in special tools because they can cut glass and other materials, without being destroyed. ie they've been around 'forever' and last longer. Diamond dust is probably also valuable. At least it can be formed into another useful compound, unlike other fossil products that become pollution when burned....?
Off topic -- Like OG said, diamonds are shiny.
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
Never said this wasn't a valid (or potentially valuable) discussion.
We do exist, others used to but they're dead, life is real. Value is in our heads only because our minds change over time.
Which brings me to Occam's Razor, cut to the chase. Time is valuable, but how is time defined? It's limited as a resource, it exists outside ourselves, even tho we spend vast amounts of time trying to define and conserve it, working around it/with it....is time just money?
Am I 'wasting time' by talking about time's value, on a lazy Sunday?
Value IS all in our heads. A diamond is useless. If I you were stranded alone out in the middle of the Alaskan Wilderness, with just the clothes you're wearing right now, what would you rather have - a billion dollars in diamonds or a Satellite phone, camping gear, and food for a month? Value is only what some idiot is willing to pay for something and what people are willing to pay is based on cultural context. It isn't set in stone, its based mostly on collective opinioni. Ask anyone trying to sell a house these days.what? grrr, take that to the singles or doubles threads then (another thing I don't really understand....)
VALUE is not all in our heads. Diamonds are valuable because they're hard to mine, very hard to craft (just ask Bitter), and only the descriminating eye can tell if it's cubic zirconia (synthetic). Diamonds are used in special tools because they can cut glass and other materials, without being destroyed. ie they've been around 'forever' and last longer. Diamond dust is probably also valuable. At least it can be formed into another useful compound, unlike other fossil products that become pollution when burned....?
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Firstly, no one in their right mind is "stranded alone in Alaskan wilderness". If you're talking natives who've been there for centuries, they and only the clothes on their backs, they'd laugh if you offered them either a billion "dollars" or the satellite phone. They probably already have food for a whole season, not just a month.Value IS all in our heads. A diamond is useless. If I you were stranded alone out in the middle of the Alaskan Wilderness, with just the clothes you're wearing right now, what would you rather have - a billion dollars in diamonds or a Satellite phone, camping gear, and food for a month? Value is only what some idiot is willing to pay for something and what people are willing to pay is based on cultural context. It isn't set in stone, its based mostly on collective opinioni. Ask anyone trying to sell a house these days.
But if you say "we'll give you a billion dollars, so you can buy ski mobiles that run on gas, in exchange for all your dogs and sleds, and all your whales and fish......then you can ship in pre-fab homes and get out of your igloos....processed food made in other places.....and you'll have to run all that on fuel oil or fossil fuel too.....fluctuating with global costs. Then we also get all your underground mineral and resource rights....."
Perception is Reality.
choobs, you forget Carbon. Alaska has carbon that's mine-able as oil. It's not just about diamonds as engagement rings ya know....
Unless you want to say only the commodities of food and shelter have inherent value due to their immediacy. I tried a thread about that, Pursuits. Didn't go very far.
Are you two totally high or what? FFSake!
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Indeed ther are two types of concepts of value:
- Value of use: It is given by how useful a good is, given its features (value NOT in our heads).
- Exchange value:It is based on perceived value (value in our heads).
You may think it is Ok to define value as exchange value, but it creates a macroeconomical problem.
Example:
For example, the value of use of a pair of shoes is that it serves as cover for our feet. Let's say it's value of use is $40. But marketing presents this product like a cool and trendy thing for successful people and they sell it for $1000 (exchange value). You bought those shoes for $1000 and suddenly a global crisis hits and you need to sell your shoes. During crisis exchange value will go down to its value of use. So you will have to sell it for $40. Where did the rest of the money go? The gap between value of use and exchange value is a toxic asset, fake money that existed in your mind only. If you paid $1000 for a pair of shoes which true value was $40, you did not pay for $1000 value. Price is what you pay, value is what you receive. So you paid $1000 for a $40 value.
Bubble assets
You realize when an asset bubble comes when value of use starts to depart from exchange value. It is that simple. Value of use is the price you would pay in a time of crisis with a tight budget. Why did houses in US saw their value diminished? Because houses were bought using exchange value and sold using value of use.
Macroeconomical problem of using exchange value
In macroeconomic terms exchange value is useless if you want to calculate creation of value added. Value added comes from physical transformation of goods, from a cheaper and useless raw material (like steel plates and rubber) to a more expensive and useful product (like a car). Profit comes when companies seize this gap to make profit. Financial companies do not produce any value added, since their inventory is money and money can't add value to itself, so the only way to make profit is to take money from people's pockets using a contractual obligation. Currently GDP is not a real measure of value added, because it measures transactions only. GDP reflects exchange value, not value of use or value added, and this is why insurance companies that produce nothing represent 16% of US GDP.
Probably exchange value is so widely used because of a microeconomical vision of economy and because it is more favorable to make more money by making people believe something has more value than the real value it has, using marketing techniques. How do they make you pay more? Using these manipulation techniques: Reuters: 10 Common and Effective Emotional Triggers
The problems of using exchange value is that economy becomes more fragile as it relies on people's emotions, and you are likely to see unnecessary crisis caused by irrational behavior, and also it creates a problem to spot inflationary/deflationary pressures and act accordingly.
How exchange value misleads monetary policy
M x V = P x Q
where
M: Amount of money in the economy ($)
V: Velocity of flow of money (how many times)
P: Price of goods ($/unit)
Q: Quantity produced (units)
If you use exchange value, where people pays more for less value, it inflates P, making the authorities to believe there is a need to implement recessive policies to restrict liquidity of the economy. The problem with asset bubbles is that if you measure exchange value it makes bubbles invisible until they pop, and also it misleads the government monetary policy. As markets are interconnected, the gap between exchange value and value of use was passed to other markets, transferring the losses to third parties, including US taxpayers.
So the damage is double. Not only a loss is produced by the toxic assets that result from the gap betwen value of use and exchange value, but also figures mislead monetary policies.
So what about the monopoly of DeBeers?
Read this: De Beers and Beyond:The History of the International Diamond Cartel
Last edited by ar81; 03-22-2010 at 09:24 AM.
Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.
People is not real, people ARE real.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
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