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    Default What if Women Ran Wallstreet?

    Now that your curiosity has been piqued....enjoy

    Alternate titles:
    What If Women Ran Wall Street?
    Testosterone and Risk



    By Sheelah Kolhatkar Published Mar 21, 2010


    Early in the morning on a typical weekday, men can be seen resolutely streaming down lower Broadway, braced against a pulverizing wind. They are preparing to enter their office buildings, put on their headsets, flick on their Bloombergs, and go to war. And if they look miserable—or weary, frustrated, angry, or petrified—it’s because they have one of the most emotionally taxing jobs in the world. Playing the market is a constant ricochet between panic and euphoria. There’s a reason the burnout rate is high. But the formula for succeeding in a high-stress financial environment is simpler than you might think. If you ask a trader, or someone who studies them, what the single most important factor is in determining whether a person will be good at trading, they will say that it’s the ability to control one’s emotions.

    The trouble for all those men pouring into the trading desks is that recent studies suggest purely rational behavior may not come as naturally to them as gender stereotypes would suggest. A couple of weeks ago, for instance, the investment-management company Vanguard released data showing that men were more likely than women to sell stocks at the bottom of the market. Could it be that the fairer sex is better able to ride the ups and downs of Wall Street without letting their emotions get in the way?

    “There were always very few women on the floor of the exchanges,” says a hedge-fund manager named Henry Lee, who spent years on the floor of the American Stock Exchange. “But the women who were successful at it were unbelievable.”

    Lee is sitting at a trading desk with his friend Harley Evans, a derivatives trader at a firm called Mako Financial Markets, talking about gender differences in their line of work. “They never got ruffled, never got upset,” Lee continues. “Losing their temper? Never.”

    “I think women can be very emotional, too,” Evans says, not entirely convinced.

    “Women respond to stress differently,” Lee says. Rather than throwing the phone across the room, “women cry.”

    “Well, I’ve cried, too,” Evans says.

    “Not that I’ve seen. You cried alone in your closet,” says Lee.

    “I cried in my beer.”

    “The notion of taking chances is definitely more male,” Lee says. “Look, men are much more willing to take a shot on something with incomplete knowledge.”

    So, I ask, how would Wall Street be different if there were more women making decisions? Lee offers an analogy based on the fact that he’s going through a divorce: “I would say that when you’re married, your life is much more level,” he says. “And when you’re single, you tend to experience many more swings. For example, you might not go skydiving if you’re married, or go out drinking all night with your buddies, or you may not pursue that Ironman.” Having women around, in other words, “prevents extreme behavior—or irrational exuberance.”

    Despite what we’ve been led to believe, the market isn’t rational or efficient at all—it’s all about feelings. The major plot points of the crisis largely turned on emotion: Dick Fuld was too egotistical to sell Lehman Brothers when he had the chance, so his pride drove it into the ground; Bear Stearns hedge-fund managers lost huge sums of money on subprime mortgages despite the fact that they suspected the worst (“I’m fearful of these markets,” Ralph Cioffi e-mailed a colleague back in 2007); Merrill Lynch was the “fat kid,” as the investor Steve Eisman has put it, so desperate to be like Goldman Sachs that it barreled into every dumb investment imaginable and had to be bailed out by Bank of America. Almost every single bank chief doubled down on mortgage junk at exactly the wrong moment. Emotions led otherwise intelligent men—because, let’s face it, all of them were men—to make terrible decisions.

    According to a new breed of researchers from the field of behavioral finance, Wall Street’s volatility is really driven by our body chemistry. It’s the chemicals pulsing through traders’ veins that propel them to place insane bets and enable bank executives to make risky decisions—and those same chemicals tend to have the same effect on everyone, turning them into a herd of overheated animals. And because the vast majority of these traders and finance executives are men, the most important chemical in question is testosterone.

    Here are a few things we know about testosterone: Both men and women produce it, but men make fifteen times as much of it as women, on average. It causes all sorts of physical differences—in body hair, muscle mass, jawlines, and so on. Behaviorally, it does all the things that one would expect: It is linked to increased aggression and dominance, confidence, hostility, violence, sensation-seeking, and the searching out of mates (“I felt like I had to have sex once a day or I would die,” Drew—formerly Susan—Seidman told The Village Voice, after having testosterone injections as part of his transformation from a woman to a man). One of the most fascinating things about testosterone is the way it can be influenced by the environment. A man who stays home with his kids, for example, is likely to see his testosterone level drop over time. Testosterone varies throughout the day, peaking in the morning and gradually ebbing through the afternoon. Perhaps not surprisingly, single men have higher levels than married men. If you eat more meat, it tends to be higher. As it does when a man is in the presence of an attractive woman, or looking at the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue. Or in a highly competitive environment with other guys, like a rugby game—or the Bear Stearns trading floor.

    Anna Dreber, an economics researcher at Harvard’s Kennedy School, started studying testosterone as a possible explanation for why there tend to be few women in certain fields—math, say, or kickboxing, Dreber’s sport of choice. Through studies conducted at the Harvard biological-anthropology department, Dreber found that appetite for risk in simulated investment games correlated with high testosterone levels and with facial characteristics such as sharp cheekbones and strong jaws that are normally associated with the hormone. “There is a clear sign that something biological explains risk taking,” she says. Testosterone is not the only chemical that affects it—the stress hormone cortisol has a role, as well as the neurotransmitter dopamine, among others—but it’s by far the most powerful.

    Dreber has been thinking about the issue a lot recently, especially after reading the reports about AIG’s London office, a hothouse where a small group of men almost brought down the world economy. “When you have this place with all these male traders taking enormous risk,” she says, “I can imagine that being in a very competitive environment with lots of other competitive males makes the testosterone go up, which leads to even more risk.” Another study Dreber has in the works will look at the effects of the hormones in the birth-control pill on women, because women having their periods have been shown to act more like men in terms of risk-taking behavior. “When I present that in seminars, I say men are like women menstruating,” she says, laughing.

    Dreber is not the only one to see human behavior on Wall Street in such starkly biological terms. To Terry Burnham, economist and author of Mean Markets and Lizard Brains: How to Profit From the New Science of Irrationality, modern finance is a jungle where apes are strutting around, puffing out their chests and stealing each other’s women and bananas. Burnham’s metatheory is that human beings haven’t evolved nearly as rapidly as their environment has since the Stone Age. One could argue that technology—the ability to make enormous trades in the blink of an eye with supersonic computers—only exaggerates the primal, emotional element, allowing people to respond in a flash to their biochemical urges. The better the machines the more our animal instincts take over. “The caricature view would be, the caveman wins the battle, has more babies, crushes his enemies, then puts on a suit 10,000 years later and goes into a boardroom and still wants to crush his enemies,” Burnham says.

    Burnham wanted to understand self-defeating behaviors in the business world, such as why good companies pay billions of dollars to buy crappy companies (Time Warner-AOL), or why a male friend of mine who shall remain nameless doubled down on Citigroup shares at $50. In a study conducted at Harvard, Burnham found that higher-testosterone men were more likely to reject money that was offered to them if someone else was getting a larger share. A similar study at the University of British Columbia looked at the question through the lens of mergers and acquisitions, the primal psychodrama of corporate America. The authors found that the younger a CEO was, and therefore the higher his testosterone level (and the lesser his experience), the more likely he was to walk away from merger negotiations, even when the deal was in the company’s best interest.

    “Having too many men involved in business might cause them to take more risks, and having more women would probably be good in lots of settings,” Burnham says. “Women are the brake pedal.”

    Last year at Davos, a spontaneous (and slightly goofy) discussion broke out about whether Lehman Brothers would have failed if the company had been called Lehman Sisters. (They might have forgotten that there was at least one sister, Erin Callan, but she had only just become CFO when things fell apart.) The conclusion was that Lehman would probably still be in business, although it also would have made less money during the boom years.

    That’s the thing about Wall Street: Until the crash, no one wanted to hire traders of either gender who didn’t have a large appetite for risk. In that model, the lows might have been very, very low, but the highs were astronomical: For every Brian Hunter, the rogue trader from the hedge fund Amaranth Advisors, which lost $6.6 billion largely because of his bets on the natural-gas market, you have an Andrew Hall, the Phibro trader who was owed a $100 million bonus after his unit made $2 billion for Citigroup over the last five years.

    Terri Duhon, now a consultant in London, worked as an interest-rate swaps trader at JPMorgan before joining the group that invented credit derivatives. Duhon says that she is considered quite aggressive—for a woman—but when she started trading on the swaps desk in the nineties, she discovered she was not comfortable with the type of risk-taking involved. She recalled a day when she made a very risky trade and was worried about it, and realized there were other traders who took a more cavalier attitude toward the possibility of losing big. After all, many traders who blow up manage to resurrect themselves. “Someone said to me, ‘If he can lose a lot of money, it means he can take the risk to make a lot of money. He has the balls to do it,’ ” Duhon says. She had never heard anyone articulate the “testicles” explanation quite so explicitly before. “It’s what some banks do. They put these young guys in there who are prepared to take the risk.”

    For better or worse, the women traders I spoke with tended to classify themselves as more conservative than their male counterparts. A self-described math nerd, Nancy Davis was head of Goldman Sachs’ proprietary derivatives-trading desk for five years. “I think generally, women are more likely to admit that they’re wrong, faster. I think there’s less ego for whatever reason with women traders, the ones I know at least,” she says. She made a habit of keeping her boss in the loop on every trade—something she calls having “buy-in.” “If there’s a position going sour on me, I’m not going to sit and say, ‘I know what’s best.’ It would make me want to raise my hand and get advice from other people. It’s like asking for directions when driving.”

    A former boss of mine—a hedge-fund manager named Nancy—once barked out one of the most useful pieces of stock-buying advice I’ve ever heard. One of her consultants had amassed in his personal account a huge position in a tech company, Rambus, having ridden it from something like $10 a share to well above $100. It was the height of the Internet boom, and the normally self-effacing geek was strutting around the office, dizzy with future plans for his nest egg. Nancy would peer at him over her monitors, egg-salad sandwich in hand, and say, “Sell half.” It was the sort of conservative strategy she tended to practice herself—and of course it is an investment strategy that many men practice as well. But sadly her tech consultant wasn’t one of them. He was certain that the thing would keep going higher, and the thought of missing out on it made him crazy. Months later, when Rambus tanked, he rode it all the way back down.

    John Coates, a senior research fellow in neuroscience and finance at the University of Cambridge, studies just this sort of magical thinking. During the IPO heyday of the late nineties, before he became a full-time scientist, Coates was running a trading desk at Deutsche Bank. “Male traders were acting odd during the bubble,” he recalls. “They were displaying what we call clinical symptoms of mania. They were delusional, euphoric, overconfident, had racing thoughts, a diminished need for sleep.” One of his colleagues—a “kid” with a general-arts degree and $500,000-a-year salary—quit his job to start a nebulous Internet company. “I asked him what the Internet company would do, and he said he didn’t know yet,” Coates says. Meanwhile, the few women on the desk seemed mostly unaffected by the frenzy. “The guys had their eyes rolling back in their heads, desperate to get involved in what some genius was up to, and the women just didn’t buy into it.”

    “The banking crisis was caused by doing what no society ever allows: permitting young males to behave in an unregulated way. Anyone who studied neurobiology would have predicted disaster.”


    Positioning himself as a sort of endocrine whisperer of the financial system, Coates argues that if women made up 50 percent of the financial world, “I don’t think you’d see the volatile swings that we’re seeing.” Bubbles, he believes, may be “a male phenomenon.”

    His colleague, neuroscientist Joe Herbert, agrees. “The banking crisis was caused by doing what no society ever allows, permitting young males to behave in an unregulated way,” he says. “Anyone who studied neurobiology would have predicted disaster.”

    At Cambridge, Coates and Herbert launched a study of the way testosterone and cortisol—which is released by the body in response to stress—rose and fell in a group of traders in London as they worked the markets. Testosterone surged in traders who were experiencing winning streaks, leading to a greater sense of confidence and a higher propensity for taking risks. This improved the trader’s chances of winning again, in a kind of positive-feedback loop. At some point, though, the effect of the testosterone became toxic, and traders made decisions that were self-defeating, almost stupid. Cortisol, the stress hormone, behaved differently, shooting up with the volatility of the market. When the market started to crash, cortisol spiked as well, possibly exaggerating the sell-off.

    When Coates first suggested that men on trading floors might be at the mercy of a swirling cocktail of hormones, he expected traders to be offended. “But every trader knows, when you’re on a winning streak you act like a dickhead, and then you end up giving back all the money you made on the way up,” he says. “I actually got a lot of e-mails from traders saying it was good to know where this odd behavior comes from.”

    Dug Hirschhorn, a well-built fellow with a shiny bald head and feline features, bills himself as a “peak performance coach” to Wall Street traders. He tries to teach men to make better decisions and to avoid destructive habits, such as becoming too emotional about their positions or not knowing when to cut their losses and sell. “I literally have to deconstruct a lot of their testosterone,” Hirschhorn says. “A lot of behaviors that are counterproductive to success in trading are typical male traits, such as being too aggressive, too stubborn, or being ego driven.”

    Today, Hirschhorn is working with a portfolio manager who is responsible for trading about $100 million, a fellow whom we’ll call “Ken” because he’s embarrassed to use his real name. Ken is blond and trim, and wears snug-fitting jeans and a watch that looks like it weighs about eight pounds. His forearms are muscled and tan. He sees himself as akin to a professional athlete, a money-producing machine in need of constant tweaking to operate at its optimal level. Hirschhorn is the guy who gives him a rub and a squirt of water when he takes a break from being pounded in the ring.

    “Look, I’m good, but I’m inefficient about how I spend my time,” Ken says. “I’m here to try to get better.” He proceeds to vent about various things: the slightly co-dependent, old-married-couple-sounding relationship he has with the trader who works for him, and a fraught investment they made in a finance company that’s in trouble and may be rescued by the government. “It’s so fucking small, it’s almost aggravating to me,” Ken says about the position. “I know we’re going to end up losing money on it.”

    “By having you journal every day, are you noticing that you’re more intentional with how you spend your time?” Hirschhorn asks. (I keep expecting one of them to break out laughing, but it doesn’t happen—they are dead serious.) Ken says he doesn’t want to admit to people that he’s writing everything he does down in a notebook, but Hirschhorn thinks it’s an important step in becoming more conscious of his actions, and less likely to get swept up in his emotions. Earlier in his career, Ken says he was consumed by competitiveness, his decisions driven by a desire to beat the guy beside him. “I wanted to not only get money, but I wanted to get style points,” he says. Now, he continues, “who gives a fuck? It might make me right, but it doesn’t make me a good portfolio manager.”

    “This guy is very self-aware,” Hirschhorn tells me later. “Usually, it’s a guy who played football at Notre Dame, who drinks beers and plays sports.”

    If journaling seems like a long way to go for a trader to get in touch with his feminine side, it’s not the most extreme example. In a bizarre piece of finance history that has entered the realm of lore, a junior trader at the Greenwich-based hedge fund SAC Capital filed a sexual-harassment suit in 2007 against his boss, alleging that he ordered him to take female hormone pills to soften his demeanor and improve his trading. The story is wacky, to be sure, but it wasn’t entirely shocking to Hirschhorn. “I don’t think greed is gender specific,” he says. “But if you ask me whether Long-Term Capital Management would have blown up if there were more women involved in the decision-making process? A woman might have said, ‘Let’s not assume we’ll never be wrong.’ ”

    While he was working on his Ph.D. in sports psychology, Hirschhorn got an offer to join what was then one of the largest proprietary trading firms in the country—with 1,200 traders, many of them former sports players—and help them improve their trading. “What was most interesting to me, was that out of the twenty women who were there, five of them were tremendously successful, so the ratio of success for the women was 25 percent, whereas it was maybe 2 percent for the men,” he says. He found that it was easier to teach women when to be more aggressive than it was to lessen the overaggression of the males.

    “I’ve always kept it in the back of my mind,” he continues. “I always thought it was the overlooked aspect of Wall Street—there are very few women in high positions.”

    Hirschhorn is peddling his ideas about gender and risk to a number of investment banks. “They could hire twenty elite women and mentor and develop them to become super-traders,” he says. So far, he’s had few takers. “Their philosophy is hire 1,000 men, and if three become rock stars, that pays for the whole model.”

    It’s perhaps not surprising that one of the first experiments in all-estrogen asset management is happening in a place with nothing left to lose. From her perch as director of Iceland’s Chamber of Commerce, Halla Tómasdóttir watched with concern as the global debt bubble grew and grew. In 2007, she decided to start her own investment company with another woman. “We wanted to put more feminine values into finance,” says Tómasdóttir, now the chairman of Audur Capital. “The financial sector was created by men, 99 percent of the employees are men. It was like herd behavior: They all think the same, they’re all from the same school, with the same friends, the same jargon, the same books. You get very unbalanced as a consequence.”

    While the Icelandic economy was decimated after a multiyear binge of borrowing and investing in real estate and other assets that plummeted in value, Audur Capital has turned a modest profit since it launched. The company philosophy: Only invest in things its managers can explain and understand. “It doesn’t make much sense to us to invest in something and try to make 30 percent in one year, only to lose 60 percent the next year,” Tómasdóttir says. Of course, to some, turning a modest profit is nothing to get excited about. “If you are a cowboy investor,” she admits, “we are probably not your place of choice.”

    Tómasdóttir has conducted some academic research of her own. In 2004, she embarked on a doctorate, which she never finished. The working name for her thesis was “The Great Big Penis Competition: The Story of Mergers and Acquisitions in Iceland.” She explains: “The reason I called it that was—and I don’t want to be vulgar—but the kind of behaviors you have seen, have to be best described as a territorial pissing contest. It’s always been about who’s the biggest, who owns more, who’s the first on the richest-people list.”

    Of course, not even the author of “The Great Big Penis Competition” would argue that all men are aggressive, egotistical, and stubborn—or that all women are conservative, rational, and levelheaded. And being reductionist about hormones and gender is a sure way to misjudge a complicated individual.

    When I was talking to Sheila Bair, the chairman of the FDIC, about the testosterone research and its implications for the financial markets, the two men sitting in on our interview—Andrew Gray, her press director, and Jesse Villarreal, her chief of staff—burst out with horrified laughter, as if it were the most absurd thing they’ve ever heard. Bair responded more carefully. “With some of those academic studies, I can see what they’re saying, and I think there may be some truth to that, with the caveat that you should never categorize people,” she said. “Perhaps from a risk-management standpoint, having diversity and different perspectives and attitudes is helpful.”

    While Bair is regarded in some circles as a prudent, risk-averse regulator who helped save the banking system, she’s made quite a few enemies along the way. She’s publicly feuded with Citigroup CEO Vikram Pandit, even pushing for a shake-up in Citi’s management. Meanwhile, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has reportedly fought to push Bair out of her job.

    Sitting in her carpeted Washington, D.C., offices, I ask Bair if she thinks she’s outspoken. “Am I outspoken?” she asks, laughing nervously. “I would say I’m direct.”

    But don’t let her feminine nervous laughter fool you. “She was very aggressive, both in public and in private,” says a former Treasury official under Paulson. “And, you know, it had nothing to do with her gender.”


    http://nymag.com/news/businessfinanc...#ixzz0j0DpIxSn


    Not to group people too tightly by gender, but hormones and chemistry? Might be interesting to know the male : female ratio of realtors who encouraged over-buying or house-flipping, and mortgage underwriters. Not just Wall St traders or bankers.

  2. #2
    My experience is that the real estate industry is very heavily skewed towards women, at least in this area.

    Of course the counterfactual issue to bring up is that we don't know what a female-dominated trading floor would look like because we've never seen it. In other words, we don't know if trading floors are like trading floors because they are, well, trading floors.

  3. #3
    Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuulllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhh----------------------------------------------------

    This theory has been going around for years.

    If women really wanted to take over the trading floor, they have had ample opportunity to do so.

    The market behaves with mathematical precision, not with emotion. Just because most people cannot predict the market at all, it doesn't follow that the market is "emotional".
    Last edited by agamemnus; 03-24-2010 at 05:24 AM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    This theory has been going around for years.
    Big ho hum, huh? Neurochemistry explaining behavior isn't typical Behavioral Economics.

    If women really wanted to take over the trading floor, they have had ample opportunity to do so.
    Where does it say women want to TAKE OVER the trading floor? Did you even read the whole article or just Dread's reply? If anything, as long as massive risky behavior is rewarded, trading and finance might remain fields women would avoid. Iceland was used as one example.

    The market behaves with mathematical precision, not with emotion. Just because most people cannot predict the market at all, it doesn't follow that the market is "emotional".
    What an absurd comment. The market is comprised of people, not robots. The market acts irrationally. Just because a math quant can plot exuberance or analysts can declare Bear or Bull, doesn't mean it's precise. It's not about predictions as much as risk-taking.


    Soon we'll see financial reform, banking reform, regulation and a big re-think. Women like Bair and Warren will play huge roles in the US. Someone has to break up the party and take away the punch bowl. A ref needs to step into the rough 'n tumble body pile, give some time-outs and penalties for bad behavior, change the rule book.

    Feminization of Finance? Nanny state? Lehman Sisters? Will the big boy players object? Big is not better....

    In a bizarre piece of finance history that has entered the realm of lore, a junior trader at the Greenwich-based hedge fund SAC Capital filed a sexual-harassment suit in 2007 against his boss, alleging that he ordered him to take female hormone pills to soften his demeanor and improve his trading.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What an absurd comment. The market is comprised of people, not robots. The market acts irrationally. Just because a math quant can plot exuberance or analysts can declare Bear or Bull, doesn't mean it's precise. It's not about predictions as much as risk-taking.
    People act irrationally; the market does not.

    Edit: You cannot say that the market acts irrationally, and instead with collective herd beavior. If that had actually happened, all these psychologists would be stinking rich!
    Last edited by agamemnus; 03-24-2010 at 08:56 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    People act irrationally; the market does not.

    Edit: You cannot say that the market acts irrationally, and instead with collective herd beavior. If that had actually happened, all these psychologists would be stinking rich!
    Maybe you need to clarify your definition of The Market. Collective herd behavior IS irrational most times. It's also irrational to look at market sectors as a reflection of a nation's wealth, and think that means we're fiscally healthy. Just because we move billions every day, and "create wealth" for certain folks, doesn't mean we're not heavily in debt with serious problems.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Maybe you need to clarify your definition of The Market. Collective herd behavior IS irrational most times.
    The Market is that graph thingy everyone's talking about, of course. :P

    It's also irrational to look at market sectors as a reflection of a nation's wealth, and think that means we're fiscally healthy. Just because we move billions every day, and "create wealth" for certain folks, doesn't mean we're not heavily in debt with serious problems.
    True, true. However, historically, the various market indices have been a good predictor of overall GDP. I say predictor because markets are forward-looking by their nature-- markets combine both the current expected output and future expected output (of the constituent companies) to form a sort of metric for the companies' expected overall value growth.

    It's telling that the Dow Jones Industrial average is at the same point it has been since 10 years ago. Though the average's weights and companies used for it does bear some investigation, on face value it is saying "we haven't grown economically for 10 years".

    If you do some very brisk searching on the internet (google "US GDP"), you'll find that US GDP, in nominal dollar terms, has grown from 9.76 trillion in 2000 to 14.2 trillion now, yet median wages have been flat or declining throughout this period.

    In 1990-2000, the nominal GDP grew almost two-fold and there were marked changes in both productivity and income levels. At the same time, the Dow Jones in this era climbed from 2,600 to 11,000: an more than 4-fold increase. By this measure, to be considered as successful a decade as the previous decade was (in terms of pure economic growth), we should be at Dow 46,000 at the end of 2010. Even assuming that inflation is 2 times lower, we are drastically under-performing in growth economically as a country compared to the 90s.

    Growth matters a lot in a capitalist system. Without constant growth, income becomes concentrated in the hands of a few very rich, as Karl Marx predicted. (his calculations' fatal flaw was that they did not account for technological/economic growth) Huge amounts of money is also, predictably, wasted by the government in order to appease the masses of poor, who see their incomes declining and their birth rates skyrocketing (they have nothing to do, and it's economically beneficial for them).

    The market and the GDP help the artist to paint a compelling story...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuulllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss sssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhh----------------------------------------------------

    This theory has been going around for years.

    If women really wanted to take over the trading floor, they have had ample opportunity to do so.

    The market behaves with mathematical precision, not with emotion. Just because most people cannot predict the market at all, it doesn't follow that the market is "emotional".
    Not sure the giant exhale of "bullshit" was necessary.

    Plus, is this really such an incendiary idea? Regardless, few really think that emotion has no role in the markets. Markets depend on emotions like confidence, panic, etc. based on available facts.

  9. #9
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    Well this thread didn't live up to its hype, perhaps a better title would have been:

    The Great Big Penis Envy Thread

    Such is Life...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by termite View Post
    Well this thread didn't live up to its hype, perhaps a better title would have been:

    The Great Big Penis Envy Thread

    I was waiting for a man to post that! Aggie had the same attitude but he didn't say it as bluntly as you did.

    Did all you men lose your sense of humor? Reading the article had me chuckling quite a bit. I now look at the Geico Caveman adverts with a little more sardonic humor, too. I could go on a tangent now about marketing, noticing the number of ads that make men look stupid or helpless (or overly aggressive like the Snickers/Betty White), which is a bit disturbing. Maybe no one else notices?

  11. #11
    Just Floatin... termite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I was waiting for a man to post that! Aggie had the same attitude but he didn't say it as bluntly as you did.

    Did all you men lose your sense of humor?
    No, I laughed out loud a few times.
    Such is Life...

  12. #12
    Did all you men lose your sense of humor?
    Saying "Penis" is just as funny as farting.
    She explains: “The reason I called it that was—and I don’t want to be vulgar—but the kind of behaviors you have seen, have to be best described as a territorial pissing contest. It’s always been about who’s the biggest, who owns more, who’s the first on the richest-people list.”
    No, you put Penis in your title because Penis sells.

    As GGT admits, it just draws attention. The writer just goes: Oh, look at me, I dare to say "Penis!". Go me! But wait, I said Penis because I meant pissing contest. And that makes perfects sense not to call it "the great big pissing contest", because I'm a woman and I don't want to be vulgar.



    The reason there are more men on Wall Street is because men are better, in general, on average, without any conclusions to be draw towards individuals attached, in games than woman.

    Vagina!
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  13. #13
    Confession time: I thought Great Big Penis would draw more attention than "Risky Behavior and Hormones". Since this forum has more males. And of course males love anything involving balls, especially their own.

    Segue into the male sexual harassment thread, why didn't you just punch him when he groped you, you pussy?!

    Vagina Monologues!

  14. #14
    I wouldn't mind a more matriarchal attitude in the world. Might be time for some balance that way. Watching the world at large is often like watching rooms full of kindergarteners who need a time out, or a lessons in fair play. "Use your words, not your fists, use your brain, not your braun"...."stop a minute and think about what you're doing"...."sharing doesn't mean you lose"...."just because you can doesn't mean you should"...."eating all the cookies won't make you better or happier".....


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I wouldn't mind a more matriarchal attitude in the world. Might be time for some balance that way. Watching the world at large is often like watching rooms full of kindergarteners who need a time out, or a lessons in fair play. "Use your words, not your fists, use your brain, not your braun"...."stop a minute and think about what you're doing"...."sharing doesn't mean you lose"...."just because you can doesn't mean you should"...."eating all the cookies won't make you better or happier".....

    Would you quit trying to make me feel older than I am...NOW WOMAN!

    I don't follow the markets, so can't really comment much there, but...It seems to me, anytime I watch Congress, State Congress, City Council meetings, hell, even the School Board meetings, that the men are the ones who are all into the "it's mine/ours and we will do what we want to with it" and the women are more for "isn't there some way we can work this out so we all get something we want and still all get along"! Yes, it does kind of seem like a large kindergarten class.

    I know two people, one man and one woman, who "compete" with each other in the stock markets. They get together every Friday evening at the LLS, and determine who did better that week. Yes, they are "playing" with real money in real markets. When this all first started, about 10 years ago, everyone thought D. would lose her ass to J. The men thought she would buy guided by her emotions or hormones that week or whatever. They all said J. would do sooo much better because he was making "rational" decisions. In fact, quite a few of the other women thought the same thing. After all this time, she is making a killing and he is sort of floundering now. Of course, he wouldn't dream of "quitting the game" or selling off some "rationally decided" stock, even when it's costing him in the long run.

    Admittedly, that is one man and one woman, and not a floor full of either sex. It just shows that not all "emotional" buying is bad in the markets, and that not all "rational" buying is good.
    I don't have a problem with authority....I just don't like being told what to do!Remember, the toes you step on today may be attached to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!RIP Fluffy! 01-07-09 I'm so sorry Fluffster! People who don't like cats were probably mice in an earlier life! My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!The nice part about living in a small town: When you don't know what you're doing, someone else always does!
    Atari bullshit refugee!!

  16. #16
    It's telling that the Dow Jones Industrial average is at the same point it has been since 10 years ago. Though the average's weights and companies used for it does bear some investigation, on face value it is saying "we haven't grown economically for 10 years".
    It's been up and down, like a roller coaster. It only matters for gain or loss, when one buys or sells. Picking one point in time, and comparing it to another, says ZIP. It also contains the shadow growth, the background noise that does not portray an accurate picture.


    In 1990-2000, the nominal GDP grew almost two-fold and there were marked changes in both productivity and income levels. At the same time, the Dow Jones in this era climbed from 2,600 to 11,000: an more than 4-fold increase. By this measure, to be considered as successful a decade as the previous decade was (in terms of pure economic growth), we should be at Dow 46,000 at the end of 2010. Even assuming that inflation is 2 times lower, we are drastically under-performing in growth economically as a country compared to the 90s.
    Did you sleep thru the dot com bust? Woulda coulda shoulda, you sound like a crystal ball gazer, or a speculative trader.

    Growth matters a lot in a capitalist system. Without constant growth, income becomes concentrated in the hands of a few very rich, as Karl Marx predicted. (his calculations' fatal flaw was that they did not account for technological/economic growth) Huge amounts of money is also, predictably, wasted by the government in order to appease the masses of poor, who see their incomes declining and their birth rates skyrocketing (they have nothing to do, and it's economically beneficial for them).
    Growth matters to ALL societies. It's one thing to attribute growth to things that actually generate productivity and outcome, it's another to suspend logic and believe in shadows or men behind curtains. Robotics and technology improve productivity, using less manpower. But it does not make the people who used to do the jobs, or want new ones, magically vanish. Money is 'wasted' all over the place, in corporations as well as government, get real.

    You make it sound like poor people are just hanging around on their Barcaloungers, plotting to have more kids, and milk the system so they can continue to hang around on their Barcaloungers and have more kids.

    Appeasing the masses of the poor who have nothing to do? There are a few of "those", but what place do you live in that makes you so easily paint everyone into those corners?

    The market and the GDP help the artist to paint a compelling story...
    So now it's Art? Earlier you said it was perfect, precise math, with none of that pesky human behavior or irrationality. Or something.

  17. #17
    Sigh, sigh, sigh.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It's been up and down, like a roller coaster. It only matters for gain or loss, when one buys or sells. Picking one point in time, and comparing it to another, says ZIP. It also contains the shadow growth, the background noise that does not portray an accurate picture.
    Did you sleep thru the dot com bust? Woulda coulda shoulda, you sound like a crystal ball gazer, or a speculative trader.
    No, it's a representative point. The dot com bust was over quickly and didn't put us back to 2600. Over the span of years and months, the market and GDP growth comparison holds true. Over the span of hours and days, people typically cannot explain the variation because there is simply not enough macro-economic data collected to understand what was happening in the economy.


    Growth matters to ALL societies. It's one thing to attribute growth to things that actually generate productivity and outcome, it's another to suspend logic and believe in shadows or men behind curtains. Robotics and technology improve productivity, using less manpower. But it does not make the people who used to do the jobs, or want new ones, magically vanish. Money is 'wasted' all over the place, in corporations as well as government, get real.
    In a truly free market, growth is spread to everyone in the economy like a bell curve. It's not evenly spread (it's a bell curve), but everyone gets some gain.


    You make it sound like poor people are just hanging around on their Barcaloungers, plotting to have more kids, and milk the system so they can continue to hang around on their Barcaloungers and have more kids.

    Appeasing the masses of the poor who have nothing to do? There are a few of "those", but what place do you live in that makes you so easily paint everyone into those corners?
    That's the nature of poor people, overall. As long as they stay poor, that will be their overall behavior. It's pure economics.


    So now it's Art? Earlier you said it was perfect, precise math, with none of that pesky human behavior or irrationality. Or something.
    Yes, economics is an art because nothing in economics theories says anything that is absolutely 100% true about the real world. It can be 99% true, but not 100% true (unlike basically theoretical fields such as mathematics or computer science). I'm painting a picture of the US economy for you based on economic models and data in a way that can be easily understood. It's not humanly possible to difficult to distill this into billions of numbers and feed you with them.

    That does not contradict with what I said about the market being "mathematically precise". What I meant is that the market follows the economy because that's what it is based on, not the whims of its traders or their "hormones" as was posited in the article. Just because you cannot predict the market does not make it irrational.

    When you look back at market activities months or years from now, you can say "well, here is a reasonable explanation of why the market generally went down or up based on what we know now about the economy." (your explanation would be based on a correlation of market data and data gathered from government and private company statistics)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    That's the nature of poor people, overall. As long as they stay poor, that will be their overall behavior. It's pure economics.
    Er, you lost me there... please elaborate?







    Testosterone and stress and being a part of a large dysfunctional group... are not exactly known for reducing risky behaviour in that group. I think it's reasonable to suggest that the behaviour of the group is influenced by the characteristics of its members. Interesting line of research :up.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Er, you lost me there... please elaborate?
    Peoples' behavior is largely a result of their socio-economic status.

    Testosterone and stress and being a part of a large dysfunctional group... are not exactly known for reducing risky behaviour in that group. I think it's reasonable to suggest that the behaviour of the group is influenced by the characteristics of its members. Interesting line of research :up.
    Well, I agree with your second-to-last sentence. But: that (dysfunctional) group controls what part of the market? .01%? Some people will act on their hormones, some will not. The market as a whole will act rationally: if the economy is bad, the market stays down. If the economy shows signs of improvement, the market goes up. HOWEVER...

    However, what some might be getting at is that the market at point X says very little about hidden structural problems in the economy. As the housing bubble grew in 2006-2007, the Dow Jones Industrial Average started going higher and higher even though the economy was based on a house of cards. But: it was REAL money being made, and it was REAL employment. The market is not god, however. Even when some see structural problems, if those people do not have enormous wealth they cannot affect the market. It is not a problem with "the market" but rather its efficiency at a point in time: the market was not free enough to allow these very clever people access to capital, and instead government laws (USA's) pushed through inept people (ie, in banking companies) in charge of large chunks of market trading.

    I could elaborate more on why the market did not warn us sooner of the impending collapse, but I'd rather....not.

    Now that the market is more or less in line with reality and future GDP growth prospects, we can smooth out the blip in the market's over-estimation of the economy's well-being through a longer time span and see that yes, overall, the market can show the well-being of an economy. Granted, that particular blip did take a few months for people to realize that Dow 12000 wasn't gonna happen, but hey, nobody's perfect!

  20. #20
    Did you just want to type up a blurb on efficient market theory or what?

    Even when some see structural problems, if those people do not have enormous wealth they cannot affect the market. It is not a problem with "the market" but rather its efficiency at a point in time: the market was not free enough to allow these very clever people access to capital, and instead government laws (USA's) pushed through inept people (ie, in banking companies) in charge of large chunks of market trading.
    In aggregate, millions of folks withdrawing from mutual funds and cashing out stocks made a huge impact. They may not be 'market movers' like hedge funds that hold billions, but they can affect 'the market'. Just like a run on the bank (herd behavior).

    'The market' was plenty free enough, the very clever people had access to the securitized debt they called collateral in accounting tricks, with high leverage ratios, and access to cheap borrowing from the Fed.

    Peoples' behavior is largely a result of their socio-economic status.
    Their socio-economic status can also impact their behavior. Uber wealthy people, and those in finance who manage other peoples' money, might be more likely to act risky just to keep up with the gang, The Joneses. Poor people in general don't go on buying binges based on credit, because they don't have access to that kind of borrowing. Middle class folks got caught in the credit card and mortgage trap by seeing homes as ATMs and debt as wealth.....they started to behave like the wealthy, the movers & shakers....moving up a rung in status without actually increasing their income. When the game was exposed, we see who's been swimming without trunks.

    Just like minx says about dysfunctional group behavior and testosterone / cortisol / dopamine / endorphins, this is about Behavioral economics or the newer Neurochemical economics, an interesting field of study.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Did you just want to type up a blurb on efficient market theory or what?
    Apparently.


    In aggregate, millions of folks withdrawing from mutual funds and cashing out stocks made a huge impact. They may not be 'market movers' like hedge funds that hold billions, but they can affect 'the market'. Just like a run on the bank (herd behavior).
    Well, that was after the fact, and I wouldn't say that they really did withdraw from mutual funds that much, but you'll have to supply hard data for that assertion! Do you know anyone who did this?

    'The market' was plenty free enough, the very clever people had access to the securitized debt they called collateral in accounting tricks, with high leverage ratios, and access to cheap borrowing from the Fed.
    They were and still are mostly inept, however. Just because they have a high salary and made out with millions in bonuses for running their companies to the ground.. well, ok, I guess that makes them clever.

    Their socio-economic status can also impact their behavior. Uber wealthy people, and those in finance who manage other peoples' money, might be more likely to act risky just to keep up with the gang, The Joneses. Poor people in general don't go on buying binges based on credit, because they don't have access to that kind of borrowing. Middle class folks got caught in the credit card and mortgage trap by seeing homes as ATMs and debt as wealth.....they started to behave like the wealthy, the movers & shakers....moving up a rung in status without actually increasing their income. When the game was exposed, we see who's been swimming without trunks.
    Ok.

    Just like minx says about dysfunctional group behavior and testosterone / cortisol / dopamine / endorphins, this is about Behavioral economics or the newer Neurochemical economics, an interesting field of study.
    So, we should spray everyone with S-S-S-Socialist Spray No. 7.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Well, that was after the fact, and I wouldn't say that they really did withdraw from mutual funds that much, but you'll have to supply hard data for that assertion! Do you know anyone who did this?
    Remember when money market mutual funds "broke the buck"? Usually from advice from financial planners, or administrators of funds of funds, there was a rush to cash out. Fear led the panic, the domino withdrawals en masse ended up killing Lehman. A large chunk of those cashing out were retail investors, not just hedge funds or speculators. We already did the hard data discussion during the meltdown.

    They were and still are mostly inept, however. Just because they have a high salary and made out with millions in bonuses for running their companies to the ground.. well, ok, I guess that makes them clever.
    Some belong in jail.


    So, we should spray everyone with S-S-S-Socialist Spray No. 7.
    I thought even capitalists believed in laws, rules, regulations, audits, and jail time for fraud and theft.

  23. #23
    Does anyone remember articles saying that war would end when more women got into power? Because they had less testosterone and were less inclined to etc etc etc?

    (I dont, because i wasnt born till 85, but i read them retrospectively.)

    Then we had Thatcher and it kind of put paid to that theory...
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawnie View Post
    Does anyone remember articles saying that war would end when more women got into power? Because they had less testosterone and were less inclined to etc etc etc?

    (I dont, because i wasnt born till 85, but i read them retrospectively.)

    Then we had Thatcher and it kind of put paid to that theory...
    Thatcher put paid to it? Ever hear of Indira Ghandi?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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