Where is the positive case for Remaining in the EU?

[RandBlade]

Just under a fortnight to go until Britain goes to the polls and the debate is not turning out as I expected.

Cameron while publicly saying he was seeking a renegotiation was saying that Britain could of course thrive outside the EU but it would be worth being in a 'reformed EU' as he phrased it. Hazir said here that Cameron was never going to get much from his renegotiation and quite frankly he was right, the EU didn't reform.

When the debate began it seemed a bit Monty Python Life of Brian. A video went viral of What has the EU ever done for us? Right idea, making a positive case, although the claims are dubious (the EU is responsible for 44% and falling of our trade not 57% though depending upon when the video was made that may have been right it's fallen a lot in recent years). While the Leave campaign were fighting each other in two camps like the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea

Yet since the debate began it seems that nobody is willing or capable of making a positive case for Remaining in the EU. It is all doom with basically the four horsemen of the apocalypse threatened if we leave the EU. It will bring poverty, war, death and destruction. Absurd. Cameron was right first time around that we could thrive either way, this nonsense is absurd and could if anything lead to us leaving as its so extreme nonsense it is rightly being laughed at.

Take away doom mongering nonsense and belittling our nation and where is the positive case being made for being a part of the European Union?

[Steely Glint]

I am literally disgusted by the quality of campaigning that's happened this referendum. You'd think that after they've been going on and on about this bloody referendum for years and years the euroskeptics would have something worthwhile to say now they've finally got one, but it turns out they don't: they're like the dog who caught the bus.

The remain campaign is the most half assed effort I've seen since the AV referendum. Their slogan should be: "The EU: eeeeh, take it or leave it tbh"

More bizarrely, the campaign has had barely any media coverage compared to what you'd expect, given it's importance.

The vote is in two weeks.

[Timbuk2]

I am literally disgusted by the quality of campaigning that's happened this referendum. You'd think that after they've been going on and on about this bloody referendum for years and years the euroskeptics would have something worthwhile to say now they've finally got one, but it turns out they don't: they're like the dog who caught the bus.

The remain campaign is the most half assed effort I've seen since the AV referendum. Their slogan should be: "The EU: eeeeh, take it or leave it tbh"

More bizarrely, the campaign has had barely any media coverage compared to what you'd expect, given it's importance.

The vote is in two weeks.

Everything is dumbed down for the stupid.

The stupid only pays attention to simple slogans, scare stories in capital lettering, things which may impact this week's pay-packet/benefits, and what kate middleton is wearing.

Did you see the video released by Remain for today's yoof? Chillin', roamin', votin' etc
Yes, yoof loves to be patronised.

Still, any one of Remain's lacklustre efforts is better the other side's Boris I WANNA BE PM THEREFORE I'M DOING EVERYTHING OPPOSITE TO DAVE LOL Johnson, flopping about with his incessant 'we send £350m to the EU every week' and talks over everyone/anyone who reasonably disagrees.
And of course Farage, compared to whom a dose of syphilis is preferable.

[Flixy]

I thought I only saw the ridiculous parts of the campaign, I didn't realise it was completely dumbed down. Over it's not that different though, that was also the problem during the European constitution referendum, nobody bothers to explain what's good about the EU. And most people take a lot of things the EU is/was responsible for granted because it's been around for some time now.

[Hazir]

I guess all or most politicians on the national level would have the same problem that Cameron has, though he may have it worse than most; after decades of EU-bashing at home you have a credibility deficit when you start to make a case for the EU.

The positive case for the EU of course is that it has fully fulfilled its promise of a safer and more prosperous Europe. Not 100 years ago, our ancestors would not have believed a Europe without any major conflicts between the great powers of Europe for over 70 years would be possible. Yet here we have it.

[RandBlade]

I guess all or most politicians on the national level would have the same problem that Cameron has, though he may have it worse than most; after decades of EU-bashing at home you have a credibility deficit when you start to make a case for the EU.

The positive case for the EU of course is that it has fully fulfilled its promise of a safer and more prosperous Europe. Not 100 years ago, our ancestors would not have believed a Europe without any major conflicts between the great powers of Europe for over 70 years would be possible. Yet here we have it.

I don't think a political union that dates back to 1993 in its current incarnation can take the credit for seventy years of peace.

The blood sweat and tears of our military past and present, nuclear weapons and their deterrence effect, the Cold War, NAFTA, democracy, globalisation and European socialism that sees military spending as undersirable are what is responsible.

Even if you think that previous trading bloc institutions are partially responsible (I don't) then that provides no backing for modern political developments that clearly post-date peace not pre-date it. It also doesn't justify a Bremain vote unless you think that either Brexit would lead to the dissolution of the EU, or that an independent Britain would go to war with the EU. Surely if the EU leads to peace it can maintain peace with or without us?

[Hazir]

I don't think a political union that dates back to 1993 in its current incarnation can take the credit for seventy years of peace.

The blood sweat and tears of our military past and present, nuclear weapons and their deterrence effect, the Cold War, NAFTA, democracy, globalisation and European socialism that sees military spending as undersirable are what is responsible.

Even if you think that previous trading bloc institutions are partially responsible (I don't) then that provides no backing for modern political developments that clearly post-date peace not pre-date it. It also doesn't justify a Bremain vote unless you think that either Brexit would lead to the dissolution of the EU, or that an independent Britain would go to war with the EU. Surely if the EU leads to peace it can maintain peace with or without us?

I'm not going to discuss the parallel universe history you think is truth. I've said enough on the issue.

[RandBlade]

The only campaigning that has surprised me is the Vote Leave campaign has been more positive than I expected. Probably because my expectations were rock-bottom and expecting Leave to be dominated by Farage and his ilk banging on about immigration non-stop.

Instead Vote Leave have tried to exclude Farage as much as possible and have been mainly talking about taking control and actually trying to make some positive points unlike Farage's racism and Remains Chicken Little behaviour. When Boris came out for Leave I expected him to be mainly clowning around as that is what Boris does best, but he's actually been rather serious (for him) and Gove has impressed me. Much better than Farage.

Tim the £350 million each week is bullshit (since we get a rebate) the real figure is £250 million they should have used that figure. At least that has a grounding in reality though unlike the £4,300 per family figure that was pure bullshit through and through.

[RandBlade]

The EU has existed in its present political state since 1945 not 1993 in your eyes?

Who's living in a parellel universe now?

[Flixy]

I'd start counting in 1958, which is neither of the dates you offered.

[Loki]

1953 for Coal and Steel Union.

[Flixy]

1953 for Coal and Steel Union.

I knew I forgot something, thanks.

[Hazir]

1953 for Coal and Steel Union.

Coal and Steel at that time being considered of such strategical imporance that shared authority over it was deemed to be a complete impediment to war between Germany and France. But let's not reality get in the way of Randblade's little Englander lies.

[RandBlade]

Coal and Steel at that time being considered of such strategical imporance that shared authority over it was deemed to be a complete impediment to war between Germany and France. But let's not reality get in the way of Randblade's little Englander lies.

It is your lie that is pretending that the union we have before us today is responsible for preventing wars over the last seventy years and that is a positive reason why the UK should remain a part of that union. Couple of flaws with that logic.

1: The EU today is a completely beast than the Coal and Steel Union. You may have an argument that the Coal and Steel Union had a role to play (for reasons that make some actual sense!) but not that requiring common working time regulations etc that did not exist for 50 years after WWII are necessary.

2: The UK was not a part of the Coal and Steel Union and did not join either it or its descendents until nearly three decades after WWII. Yet still there was no war in that time.

3: Again unless you think that the UK leaving will unravel the EU and make it doomed to disintegrate and collapse ... or you think that an independent UK would go to war with the EU (or vice-versa) that still isn't a reason for us to remain.

4: There are only two nations in the whole of Europe that have made serious military contributions for the last seventy years and continue to do so. That is the two nuclear powers and UN Security Council permanent members the UK and France. This is not the the same era of a continent of heavily armed rivals as eighty years go.

So moving on from your silly lies is there a positive reason for the UK specifically to remain in the EU?

[Hazir]

It is your lie that is pretending that the union we have before us today is responsible for preventing wars over the last seventy years and that is a positive reason why the UK should remain a part of that union. Couple of flaws with that logic.

1: The EU today is a completely beast than the Coal and Steel Union. You may have an argument that the Coal and Steel Union had a role to play (for reasons that make some actual sense!) but not that requiring common working time regulations etc that did not exist for 50 years after WWII are necessary.

2: The UK was not a part of the Coal and Steel Union and did not join either it or its descendents until nearly three decades after WWII. Yet still there was no war in that time.

3: Again unless you think that the UK leaving will unravel the EU and make it doomed to disintegrate and collapse ... or you think that an independent UK would go to war with the EU (or vice-versa) that still isn't a reason for us to remain.

4: There are only two nations in the whole of Europe that have made serious military contributions for the last seventy years and continue to do so. That is the two nuclear powers and UN Security Council permanent members the UK and France. This is not the the same era of a continent of heavily armed rivals as eighty years go.

So moving on from your silly lies is there a positive reason for the UK specifically to remain in the EU?

Just so you know; I didn't even read your little rant. Have fun voting out Little Englander.

[Aimless]

2: The UK was not a part of the Coal and Steel Union and did not join either it or its descendents until nearly three decades after WWII. Yet still there was no war in that time.

Er, it usually takes two to tango.

3: Again unless you think that the UK leaving will unravel the EU and make it doomed to disintegrate and collapse ... or you think that an independent UK would go to war with the EU (or vice-versa) that still isn't a reason for us to remain.

4: There are only two nations in the whole of Europe that have made serious military contributions for the last seventy years and continue to do so. That is the two nuclear powers and UN Security Council permanent members the UK and France. This is not the the same era of a continent of heavily armed rivals as eighty years go.

Just so we all understand one another: are you implying that Europe has evolved beyond war and that, even if supranational entities like the EU were to be dissolved, there won't be another major war in the region ever again?

Does that go for the UN as well or just for the EU?

[LittleFuzzy]

Er, it usually takes two to tango.

No it doesn't, not unless we're being strict pacifists and holding the imposed upon defender to be as full of blame for there being any fight as the other side. All you really need is an aggressor.

Just so we all understand one another: are you implying that Europe has evolved beyond war and that, even if supranational entities like the EU were to be dissolved, there won't be another major war in the region ever again?

I doubt he does. But your comment is a straw man because it's not the EU (or the myriad overlapping companions and predecessors which did exist or still exist) which are the reason for the period of peace.

[Loki]

If Britain is not in something, it doesn't exist.

[Hazir]

If Britain is not in something, it doesn't exist.

I'm sure in his fantasy world was just a common market untill the end of 1993. No politics involved whatsoever.

[RandBlade]

Sticks and stone may break my bones ...

If you can't come up with a single positive reason for voting remain and neither can the remain campaign perhaps the logical thing to do would be to vote out?

[Hazir]

Since it has always been clear that you would vote that way what's new.

[RandBlade]

I'd always said and expected to vote Remain.

[Hazir]

Whatever buddy.

[RandBlade]

Don't you want the UK to vote leave?

[Hazir]

I want you and your ilk to stop bitching and if voting out is what it takes I'm totally ok with that.

[RandBlade]

I want you and your ilk to stop bitching and if voting out is what it takes I'm totally ok with that.

LOL as far as bitching is concerned it hasn't even started yet, you do realise that right?

Is it the UK that gets the EU to re-write its immigration policy on the fly after a unilateral change in policy caused a continent-wide mess? No that'd be Germany.
Is it the UK that gets the EU Parliament to shut down, move the entire civil service and all Parliamentarians to move to Strasbourg for a week each month, and get the entire EU library of paperwork reprinted? At the cost of about £130 million and 10,200 tonnes of CO2? No that'd be France.
Is it the UK that has prevented any serious reforms to the CAP? No, France again.
Is it the UK that compelled diverse economies that had no credible reason to share a currency to do so leading to an economic disaster that has resulted in over 20% youth unemployment in the nations that adopted that failed policy? No, not us.
When the UK Prime Minister said he was calling an in/out referendum but he needed to renegotiate our relationship and get some reforms did we get serious reforms worth writing home about? No, you said we wouldn't and you were right.

The EU has been reforming for a long time in ways we have said are wrong yet it happens anyway and doesn't happen in a way we want it to. Yet we just go along with it and smile. Tony Blair gave away a large proportion of our rebate in exchange for reform of the CAP. The rebate has gone, the CAP was never reformed. UK Parliamentarians have not been tough enough in fighting for the UK taxpayer in a way that those like Schauble are perfectly in tune with fighting for the German taxpayer. Cameron was happy to sign a renegotiation that we all know and he must have known to be meaningless rather than fight for real reform. Gordon Brown slunk away signed the Lisbon treaty giving away lots of our vetos and giving the Eurozone a permanent QMV majority despite promises we'd have a vote first (which would have been voted down vetoing it).

If the UK votes Remain by a narrow margin after the intensity of Project Fear then we will have essentially put the UK "on probation". I fully expected a two-to-one majority for remain and to be in that two-to-one. Now I think it will be about 55/45 to Remain, just like the Scottish independence referendum result. From which the Scots have been the turbopowered squeeky wheels getting the grease.

I don't think the EU ever took credibly the notion we may want to leave and stop giving the billions of pounds a year we do to the EU project. After a near-miss of losing us we will have to be taken much more seriously. Any PM in the future would not get away with being so docile like Blair, Brown and Cameron as to sign a deal against the British interest. Just like France and Germany, we will fight for ourselves.

[Hazir]

LOL as far as bitching is concerned it hasn't even started yet, you do realise that right?

Is it the UK that gets the EU to re-write its immigration policy on the fly after a unilateral change in policy caused a continent-wide mess? No that'd be Germany.
Is it the UK that gets the EU Parliament to shut down, move the entire civil service and all Parliamentarians to move to Strasbourg for a week each month, and get the entire EU library of paperwork reprinted? At the cost of about £130 million and 10,200 tonnes of CO2? No that'd be France.
Is it the UK that has prevented any serious reforms to the CAP? No, France again.
Is it the UK that compelled diverse economies that had no credible reason to share a currency to do so leading to an economic disaster that has resulted in over 20% youth unemployment in the nations that adopted that failed policy? No, not us.
When the UK Prime Minister said he was calling an in/out referendum but he needed to renegotiate our relationship and get some reforms did we get serious reforms worth writing home about? No, you said we wouldn't and you were right.

The EU has been reforming for a long time in ways we have said are wrong yet it happens anyway and doesn't happen in a way we want it to. Yet we just go along with it and smile. Tony Blair gave away a large proportion of our rebate in exchange for reform of the CAP. The rebate has gone, the CAP was never reformed. UK Parliamentarians have not been tough enough in fighting for the UK taxpayer in a way that those like Schauble are perfectly in tune with fighting for the German taxpayer. Cameron was happy to sign a renegotiation that we all know and he must have known to be meaningless rather than fight for real reform. Gordon Brown slunk away signed the Lisbon treaty giving away lots of our vetos and giving the Eurozone a permanent QMV majority despite promises we'd have a vote first (which would have been voted down vetoing it).

If the UK votes Remain by a narrow margin after the intensity of Project Fear then we will have essentially put the UK "on probation". I fully expected a two-to-one majority for remain and to be in that two-to-one. Now I think it will be about 55/45 to Remain, just like the Scottish independence referendum result. From which the Scots have been the turbopowered squeeky wheels getting the grease.

I don't think the EU ever took credibly the notion we may want to leave and stop giving the billions of pounds a year we do to the EU project. After a near-miss of losing us we will have to be taken much more seriously. Any PM in the future would not get away with being so docile like Blair, Brown and Cameron as to sign a deal against the British interest. Just like France and Germany, we will fight for ourselves.

You know there is no chance in hell I will read that right?

[RandBlade]

You know there is no chance in hell I will read that right?

About the level of delusional hubris I'd expect from a Europhile like yourself and why you're going to lose either way June 24.

[Hazir]

About the level of delusional hubris I'd expect from a Europhile like yourself and why you're going to lose either way June 24.

Twelve days untill you can make everything I ever said about your europhobia in this board true. Bye bye.

[Aimless]

Take away doom mongering nonsense and belittling our nation and where is the positive case being made for being a part of the European Union?

Which positive arguments would you like to see Remain make?