What the hell is libertarianism?

[Aimless]

And why should we embrace it?

[EyeKhan]

Extreme fiscal/ economic conservatism with extreme social liberalism.

[Young Mage]

a power-hungry moron, except the opposite.

[EyeKhan]

a power-hungry moron, except the opposite.

[Steely Glint]

Answers - pick one:
1. a political philosophy which advocates minimization of government influence on both the economic and personal spheres.
2. a political philosophy which advocates individual freedom and personal responsibility.
3. Ayn Rand's idiotic disciples.
4. Conservatives too smart or proud to tolerate the internal contradictions of mainstream American conservatism.
5. "Anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." - Kim Stanley Robinson
6. "Free minds and free markets" - Reason magazine
7. A belief that the government that governs least governs the best
8. A moral code and political philosophy which seeks to enshrine & justify a complete lack of sympathy for other human beings.
9. (all of the above)

[LittleFuzzy]

Answers - pick one:
1. a political philosophy which advocates minimization of government influence on both the economic and personal spheres.
2. a political philosophy which advocates individual freedom and personal responsibility.
3. Ayn Rand's idiotic disciples.
4. Conservatives too smart or proud to tolerate the internal contradictions of mainstream American conservatism.
5. "Anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." - Kim Stanley Robinson
6. "Free minds and free markets" - Reason magazine
7. A belief that the government that governs least governs the best
8. A moral code and political philosophy which seeks to enshrine & justify a complete lack of sympathy for other human beings.
9. (all of the above)

5. made me laugh

And 8. just isn't true. It confuses emotion and action by proxy, which makes absolutely no sense.

[CitizenCain]

What the hell is libertarianism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian

Libertarianism is a political theory that advocates the maximization of individual liberty in thought and action and the minimization or even abolition of the state. Libertarians embrace viewpoints ranging from pro-property to anti-property and from a minimal state (or minarchist) to anarchist.

Or, in terms of the 2-D political spectrum, fiscally conservative and socially liberal.

And why should we embrace it?

Beats me. Clearly people are nothing more than a hybrid race of lemmings and leeches, who both require and desire someone to dominate them with arbitrary rules, so long as they are allowed to leech off of anyone else who is even marginally productive.

a power-hungry moron, except the opposite.

So... uh... a weakness-starved genius?

[GGT]

Clearly people are nothing more than a hybrid race of lemmings and leeches, who both require and desire someone to dominate them with arbitrary rules, so long as they are allowed to leech off of anyone else who is even marginally productive.

Now don't go conflating your hatred of the human race with a political ideology.

There are also enough libertarians who have a positive view of humans as individuals, and the sociology behind that would be similar to self-actualization, or self-determination, or dignity and empowerment of the individual.

[CitizenCain]

There are also enough libertarians who have a positive view of humans as individuals, and the sociology behind that would be similar to self-actualization, or self-determination, or dignity and empowerment of the individual.

Kinda hard to reconcile that with the reality that a very large majority of people are statists, and would rather be property of the government than be their own masters.

In other words, people are by nature socially gregarious and cooperative.

As are all parasitic species. It's easy to be co-operative and gregarious when you can do nothing and gorge yourself on the resources of your host.

In all seriousness, though, a host-parasite relationship is not exactly "co-operation." If it was, the government wouldn't need to enforce taxation at gun point.

[GGT]

Kinda hard to reconcile that with the reality that a very large majority of people are statists, and would rather be property of the government than be their own masters.

But grouping people into convenient chunks like that is supposedly against the libertarian view, right?

As are all parasitic species. It's easy to be co-operative and gregarious when you can do nothing and gorge yourself on the resources of your host.

In all seriousness, though, a host-parasite relationship is not exactly "co-operation." If it was, the government wouldn't need to enforce taxation at gun point.

But minx didn't ask you about your misanthropy. Did I miss something or is this just more of your foul mood on the screen, so you can talk about liberty and guns or something?

[CitizenCain]

But grouping people into convenient chunks like that is supposedly against the libertarian view, right?

How so?

And on a related note, what makes you think there is one "libertarian view?"

But minx didn't ask you about your misanthropy. Did I miss something or is this just more of your foul mood on the screen, so you can talk about liberty and guns or something?

Maybe you missed that I was responding to 'loobi (as indicated by the fact that his post was quoted above my response)?

I honestly don't know... I've never been able to figure out the many new and interesting ways you seem to get confused by relatively straight-forward posts, so I guess you'll have to tell me how you missed whose post I was responding to.

[EyeKhan]

As are all parasitic species. It's easy to be co-operative and gregarious when you can do nothing and gorge yourself on the resources of your host.

In all seriousness, though, a host-parasite relationship is not exactly "co-operation." If it was, the government wouldn't need to enforce taxation at gun point.

Well, the analogy doesn't technically fit because paracitism in nature is not intra-species. But I get what you mean.

So who are the parasites in human society? I will hazard a guess: anyone that doesn't produce something with work? Would you include:

- Clergy?
- Sports and movie stars. (I don't consider idle entertainment to be of value )
- Musicians?
- the unemployed of course
- the entire fast food industry-this actually harms society by raising health care costs
- the elderly
- retirees of any age

things i'm guessing you would add:
- poor people
- the unemployed
- the government
- the permanently disabled

EDIT:

#1. You have to admit the Libertarian cartoon was funny. Well, you don't have to, I guess...

#2. I don't understand the Contra reference. Please explain.

[CitizenCain]

Well, the analogy doesn't technically fit because paracitism in nature is not intra-species.

Children...

So who are the parasites in human society? I will hazard a guess: anyone that doesn't produce something with work?

Depends on how you define work, I suppose. But, based on everything else you've posted over the years, I'm going to hazard a guess at how you'd define "work" and just say you're wrong.

I would say the parasites are all those who deprive others of wealth or liberty through forcible compulsion (directly or by proxy). So, basically government and (to a lesser extent) the beneficiaries of government's ill-gotten wealth.

Would you include:

- Clergy?
- Sports and movie stars. (I don't consider idle entertainment to be of value )
- Musicians?

No. Whether you or I consider their "work" to be of any value whatsoever, it is to someone... as evidenced by the fact that millions of people voluntarily shell out obscene piles of money in exchange for the products or services these folks offer. I might not waste my money on any of that because it has no value to me... but it's hardly my place to force anyone to spend their money as I would.

- the unemployed of course

Depends. Plenty of people (especially these days) manage to be unemployed and/or have no income, yet don't force others to pay for their lifestyle through welfare programs and the like. Savings, Unemployment Insurance, debt, etc... there are lots of ways to sustain yourself through a period of negative revenue without forcing strangers to give you money.

- the entire fast food industry-this actually harms society by raising health care costs

So? It's voluntary. McDonalds doesn't force people to hand over their money... people buy fast food because they value it (for some reason).

- the elderly
- retirees of any age

Only if they're subsisting on resources forcibly extracted from others. I dunno about the old folks you know, but all the retirees and elderly I know got involved with this crazy scheme known as "savings," whereby they planned for their future (economically unproductive) lifestyle by setting aside a portion of their earnings for future use.

It's fucking crazy, I know, but this weird concept has allowed them to live for years, even decades in grandparents' case without any income whatsoever! Fucking nuts.

things i'm guessing you would add:
- poor people

Depends. Your stereotypical crackhead, mother-of-seven on welfare, sure. But only because of where her money comes from, not because of the amount. O course, I do know a few poor folks who manage to get by without taking anything from others by force. They work, and use the money they earn to buy things... they just don't make a lot of money, so they don't buy a lot of things. You know, they're poor.

- the government

By and large, sure. The only way those fucks can earn money is by sending their underlings out to take it.

- the permanently disabled

Also depends. Plenty of them manage to be economically productive on their own - an advantage of having a level of technology which allows more options than just manual labor for work. One of the most prolific authors of computer books (Learn Java in 14 days, Administering MS Exchnage, SAMBA for Dummies, that kind of thing) is very permanently disabled, and he makes a ton of money... with his brain. (Another weird concept, I know... someone can be disabled and somehow, not require the government to take care of him! What a fucking wacky world we live in. )

#1. You have to admit the Libertarian cartoon was funny. Well, you don't have to, I guess...

Enh. Like I said the first time ][ear posted that... libertarians object to forcible compulsion (give us money or go to jail) and not the offer of a service (in exchange for $x, we'll protect your house from fires).

#2. I don't understand the Contra reference. Please explain.

Oh, you weren't around for that? Apparently our dear ][ear was drafted to fight in Nicaragua. Well, so he claimed, anyway. I guess "believe what I say about the military because I was a Contra" was more convincing than "believe what I say about the military because I'm a cum-guzzling coward whose closest experience to combat was getting renal failure from an untreated STD I picked up being gay-for-pay near the local military base."

[EyeKhan]

Beats me. Clearly people are nothing more than a hybrid race of lemmings and leeches, who both require and desire someone to dominate them with arbitrary rules, so long as they are allowed to leech off of anyone else who is even marginally productive.

In other words, people are by nature socially gregarious and cooperative.

So... uh... a weakness-starved genius?

You missed one of the opposites. It should be weakness-glutted genius.

[']['ear]

[Steely Glint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_...ctor.22_series

[Young Mage]

That contra picture was so unexpected. I lol'd

And I know asshat who call themselves libertarians. They want to see all governments topple. They home school their children. It's so ironic.

[Steely Glint]

They want to see all governments topple. They home school their children. It's so ironic.

That's actually not ironic.

[Young Mage]

That's actually not ironic.

It actually is? They don't want a governing body. Yet they control their children.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, their children don't play sports or leave the house without their parent. They're 13 and 15.

[Steely Glint]

It actually is? They don't want a governing body. Yet they control their children.

Why don't they want a governing body?

[GGT]

Well, this is all entertaining to read, but it doesn't do much in defining libertarianism.

Cain claims to be a lone wolf kinda guy, who wants to live on his own island, with his guns and drugs and strippers. Or something. That's not really libertarianism. Sure, that would be the ultimate in freedom to do whatever the hell he wants, but it's not independence or liberty FROM others. He'd still need the gun and ammo manufacturers. And a way to pay them. Not to mention other people to serve his sexual needs, or at least someone else to make his booze.

I don't imagine he wants to be some naked dude on an island, chewing on sugar cane to ease hunger, or trying to figure out fire with stone flints and dried cocoanuts, or making his own fish nets from tying palm fibers, or making spears to kill fish. Let alone trapping fresh rain water to drink.

He wouldn't last very long that way, none of us would.

No, he wants metal and fabric and synthetics, or easy fuel, things other people made. He's thinking about being an island, on an island, with stuff other people make. With only certain people he likes, if they serve him. That's not freeeedom, that's fantasy.

Nothing wrong with fantasy per se. It's just not libertarianism. In essence, it's just trading one master for another.

[CitizenCain]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_...ctor.22_series

Wow. I thought the religious right in *this* country was nutty. I should have known that they'd look sane compared to Germany. <shrug> Leave it to Europe to make liberalism look a lot like fascism.

Libertarian credo? "Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman?"

Personal credo. Granted, it's not as clever as yours, but what is yours? "Serving the cause of liberals as a Contra since 1963?"

Actually, it's the other way around.

Well, in that case, it's possible to believe in individual liberty (politically) and still posses the ability to generalize and categorize. And it's still baffling that you don't take that as a given.

That's actually not ironic.

Really. Why would anyone who hates or distrusts the government... let the government raise their children?

You front far more than anybody here, snake, so you should be careful about glass houses. By your own admission, you are a parasite who wants to take as much as possible from the world and give as little as possible in return.

Letting your inner communist out to play, are ya? Sorry that you find the idea of voluntary commerce to be so distasteful.

Society has put far more into you than you have returned, or ever will returned. You're a taker, not a giver. Are you libertarianisms poster child? Selfish narcissism?

No, my parents gave me everything. Government, society, self-righteous zealots like you haven't given me anything other than a cold rage for the rest of humanity. Fuck off and die. Seriously, what a fucking waste of a perfectly good donor kidney you are. Should have gone to someone more useful, like a crack whore.

You're a faker. You do nothing but posture, bully and mock. Why should any of us believe the fantabulous back story you present us? It's preposterous. You expect us to believe your Hollywood life story, Cain? None of your posting matches up. The little details are ALWAYS missing. You're nothing but talk, bro. Smoke and mirrors.

What Hollywood life story? Lower-middle class kid grows into middle class adult? Yeah, shit man, the big studios are always beating down my door to put that one up on the big screen.

And spare me the coward talk. I've been through far more than some fantasy soldier like yourself, who never came within a hemisphere of war. As I've pointed out before, how come you never shared a single relevant detail of your war experience until I mentioned this deficit, eh? Because you had no experience to draw on, so silence was safer. You figured if you dropped a "huah" on us now and then, and refer obliquely to some historical battle, you'd stamp your soldier card.

Whatever you say. The jungles of Central America are beautiful this time of year, aren't they?

I *am* curious about what your obsession with war stories is, though... you hoping to pick up a detail or two to make your lies about military service better? Is your secret shame that you're a liberal who gets off on war porn? Have a big boy crush on me?

Fuck you, coward. Your whole personna is BS fronting by some scrawny wuss. You're a disgusting excuse for a human being. You taunt people stuggling to live, and you torment suicidal tweens.

Yeah, that was pretty funny. But only because he was a drama whore with no serious intention to suicide or even self-harm. I must have a gift for smelling out a phony... probably why you've always had such a problem with me.

Is there anything lower, other than molesting children? You're sickening. Saying things less offensive got Silverlink widely excoriated and banned. I fell confident you won't, you pustule on the ass of humanity.

Aww, come on... if you're gonna do this, you gotta at least bring up my solicitation of underage DBZ kiddie porn, and pretend like I was being serious too.

What makes you different from the Westboro Baptist Church, exactly? Let's see, people who died are that way because God hates fags, right? And you claim my kidneys failed because I picked up soldiers for gay sex? WELL DONE. Really, man. Way to stamp your humanity card. We all get it about you now, you evil, sick fuck.

Holy shit! I actually hit a nerve, didn't I? Now I'm starting to think your kidney disease really is the result of an untreated STD. Damn, I wish I could show you just how big I'm smiling right now.

It will be entertaining to watch TWF's powers that be rationalize how they tolerate your evil. Dread, after all, is one of the two people who can verify who I am. I sent him my information before my transplant. Serious character check here, eh?

He may well know your identity, but he's hardly one of the only people who know who you really are. Pretty much everyone on here knows you're a pathological liar who makes himself feel big by pretending to be anyone else. "I'm a contra! I'm an ex-Republican! I'm a born-again Christian who saw the light! I'm a rich Ph.D. with a hot wife and a fabulous home who loves paying his taxes! I'm a poor kid from the street who made it big thanks to government help!"

Seriously... how pathetic are you that you have to pretend to be someone, anyone else just to post online?

Edit: OH NO! I forgot. You've got a computer and are well-armed! You threaten to come kill people who disagree with you on the internyets. PLEASE don't kill me Mr. Macho, armed-to-the-teeth military man! PLEASE don't kill me! I've only got 9 lives, and have used 2 up already. Please don't take my life! I'll do anything!

Careful now... wasn't it that kind of talk that got you the STD which fried your kidneys?

Look, do us all a favor, go to an SF bathhouse and work out your homoerotic problems. You're fucking insufferable and offensive, you goddamned Larry Craig-emulating, repressed right-wing Republican bigot

You really don't get it, do you? I couldn't give a fuck if you're gay or not... and God knows you can't swing a dead towel-head in the Army without hitting a gay guy. I'm not the one who's got a homophobia problem - you are. That's why you get worked up into a frenzy anytime I suggest you may have had gay experiences, and I care so little about it that I make gay jokes about myself. A liberal closet-homophobe. God-damn, it's fun to have you around again!

Well, this is all entertaining to read, but it doesn't do much in defining libertarianism.

Right. For that, you should probably go to the beginning of the thread, where at least three people provided a plethora of definitions of libertarianism. (Both serious, and humorous.)

Cain claims to be a lone wolf kinda guy, who wants to live on his own island, with his guns and drugs and strippers. Or something.

"And blackjack, and hookers! In fact, forget the blackjack!"

That's not really libertarianism. Sure, that would be the ultimate in freedom to do whatever the hell he wants, but it's not independence or liberty FROM others. He'd still need the gun and ammo manufacturers. And a way to pay them. Not to mention other people to serve his sexual needs, or at least someone else to make his booze.

I don't imagine he wants to be some naked dude on an island, chewing on sugar cane to ease hunger, or trying to figure out fire with stone flints and dried cocoanuts, or making his own fish nets from tying palm fibers, or making spears to kill fish. Let alone trapping fresh rain water to drink.

He wouldn't last very long that way, none of us would.

No, he wants metal and fabric and synthetics, or easy fuel, things other people made. He's thinking about being an island, on an island, with stuff other people make. With only certain people he likes, if they serve him. That's not freeeedom, that's fantasy.

Exactly. What retirement plan isn't largely based in fantasy? But, for the record, this would all be financed through savings, and acquired through voluntary trade. (Buying shit with my savings.) Once I've worked long enough to afford my lifestyle, why not sit around on a beach, relaxing, playing with my toys (guns and computers and the like) and ingesting happiness in its various chemical forms? I guess that males me a man of simple tastes, or something.

But just for the record, I *will* be naked. I hate pants. Once I no longer need them to be out "in public" without getting arrested, the pants come off. This will, perhaps, be the only non-libertarian law on my island. No pants. Ever. For anyone.

Nothing wrong with fantasy per se. It's just not libertarianism. In essence, it's just trading one master for another.

Not sure about that - the natural world is every bit your "master" (at least in the sense you're using it), whether there's a government and a society around you or not. Fat lotta good that civilization does you when the tsunami's bearing down on you, and like that there.

Fuck you, Cain.

No thanks, man. I prefer chicks. *Without* STDs.

[Steely Glint]

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Steely Glint. Whatever he may do, he'll never take a stand, or at least not one that is discernible without carefully sifting and inferring from his posts. Bravery. Balls. Truth. That's Mr. Steely Glint.

Why would you assume that if I were to talk a stand, it would be siding with you against Cain?

Figure it out yourself, bright boy.

I already figured it out: none whatsoever, otherwise you would have explained what it was instead of restoring to poorly disguised bluffing.

[']['ear]

Why would you assume that if I were to talk a stand, it would be siding with you against Cain?

Oh, not necessarily. Really, taking any ethical stand against that kind of behavior. You see, you just want the show, so you can apply your cool, practiced cynicism.

[']['ear]

Cain's a psychopath. That's the only term you can define with him as your archetype.

Oh, are you going to shoot me, Cain? Because you've obliquely threatened two posters with shooting recently. Oh noes!

Fuck you, Cain.

[Steely Glint]

Cain's a psychopath. That's the only term you can define with him as your archetype.

Oh, are you going to shoot me, Cain? Because you've obliquely threatened two posters with shooting recently. Oh noes!

Fuck you, Cain.

Bob decides to go bear hunting. While he's in the woods, he sees a bear. Raising his rifle he shoots and the bear falls down. Flushed with excitement Bob runs up to the bear. And the bear stands up ....

"Bob," the bear says. "You tried to kill me. I don't like that. But I'm going to give you a choice. I can kill you or I can fuck you and let you live. The choice is yours Bob."

Well obviously Bob doesn't want to die, but on the other hand, option B isn't looking to appealing either. Still, it beats dying; so Bob chooses option B.

True to his word the bear screws Bob and sends him home. That night Bob is furious. He spends all night thinking about the wrong done to him and he gets madder and madder. He swears he's going to kill that damned bear. So the next day, he gets his gun and goes out into the forest again. He sees the bear, he shoots, the bear falls down and Bob runs up to him.

And the bear stands up.

Repeat offer ... Bob again chooses to live.

That night Bob is FURIOUS! He is so outraged he can't stand it. He is going to kill that fuckin' bear for what it has done to him. So the next day he goes out into the forest ...

Repeat

In the middle of screwing him, the bear taps Bob on the shoulder and asks "Bob ... this isn't about bear hunting is it?"

[Loki]

Cain's a psychopath. That's the only term you can define with him as your archetype.

Oh, are you going to shoot me, Cain? Because you've obliquely threatened two posters with shooting recently. Oh noes!

Fuck you, Cain.

I wonder if you notice the irony of those two statements given your recent behavior. I'll guess no, but who knows.

[GGT]

Freeeeeedom!

[']['ear]

That's nice Steely. Does it make your complicity in Cain's behavior go down better, somehow?

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Steely Glint. Whatever he may do, he'll never take a stand, or at least not one that is discernible without carefully sifting and inferring from his posts. Bravery. Balls. Truth. That's Mr. Steely Glint.

[Steely Glint]

Of which complicity do you speak?