He isn't 18 I guess we can't punish him too harshly...

[Lewkowski]

At least that's what the crazy criminal loving liberals on this board will likely say.

http://www.austin360.com/news/nation...w6TabGiIc2AuL/

"The men shocked her with Tasers, threw boiling water on her and raped her while her older son watched, a police report said.

Police have arrested 17-year-old Francisco Palencia, 19-year-old Josue Ramirez and an unnamed 15-year-old female in connection with the assault. All three suspects have been charged with home invasion, rape, aggravated sodomy, kidnapping, aggravated battery and cruelty to children. More arrests are possible, a Gwinnett County Police Department spokesman said. "

So how long should Francisco stay in prison for? Poor 'child' probably had it rough and didn't know any better right? Poor little guy didn't have his brain fully developed couldn't know what he was doing was bad right? So how long before you think this 'minor' should go free and go out and rape and burglarize again?

I take some small condolence in the fact the little worthless shit will likely get raped in jail. Here's hoping he gets killed in prison before this garbage gets set free by the liberal court system.

[Loki]

You must be the only person in this country who thinks we have a liberal court system.

[Lewkowski]

You must be the only person in this country who thinks we have a liberal court system.

I would wager most countries of the world would be defined as less liberal *by your own definitions* than America is. So it makes me wonder what you define as a liberal court system.

[Loki]

I would wager most countries of the world would be defined as less liberal *by your own definitions* than America is. So it makes me wonder what you define as a liberal court system.

Number of people in jail.
Average sentence.
Number serving life without parole.
Existence of the death penalty.
Mandatory minimums.
Higher sentences for same crimes if you're black.
Higher sentences for crimes typically committed by non-whites.
Length of permitted sentences for juveniles.

The US has by far the harshest criminal justice system in the West, and by some measures, one of the five most harsh systems (corruption and torture aside) in the world.

[Veldan Rath]

Number of people in jail.
Average sentence.
Number serving life without parole.
Existence of the death penalty.
Mandatory minimums.
Higher sentences for same crimes if you're black.
Higher sentences for crimes typically committed by non-whites.
Length of permitted sentences for juveniles.

The US has by far the harshest criminal justice system in the West, and by some measures, one of the five most harsh systems (corruption and torture aside) in the world.

Hmmm...I think we can include corruption and torture...just not as institutionalized?

[Lewkowski]

Number of people in jail.
Average sentence.
Number serving life without parole.
Existence of the death penalty.
Mandatory minimums.
Higher sentences for same crimes if you're black.
Higher sentences for crimes typically committed by non-whites.
Length of permitted sentences for juveniles.

The US has by far the harshest criminal justice system in the West, and by some measures, one of the five most harsh systems (corruption and torture aside) in the world.

How many hands are we cutting off?
How many stonings are taking place?
Trial by jury as opposed to religious officials
Blasphemy is not illegal
Number of lynchings
Reasonable Doubt standard
Chain of evidence requirements
The use of science and expert testimony
Media allowed to be within the court
Type of executions tend to be mild compared to other great economic powers in the world (Japan/China in terms of GDP)

To be quite honest the largest issue with our criminal justice system and incarceration rates is illegal drug use. Eliminate that as a crime and give harsher sentences to violent criminals and you solve 90% of the problems.

[Loki]

How many hands are we cutting off?
How many stonings are taking place?
Trial by jury as opposed to religious officials
Blasphemy is not illegal
Number of lynchings
Reasonable Doubt standard
Chain of evidence requirements
The use of science and expert testimony
Media allowed to be within the court
Type of executions tend to be mild compared to other great economic powers in the world (Japan/China in terms of GDP)

To be quite honest the largest issue with our criminal justice system and incarceration rates is illegal drug use. Eliminate that as a crime and give harsher sentences to violent criminals and you solve 90% of the problems.

So your standard is literally Saudi Arabia? Yes, we're less harsh than Saudi Arabia. Incidentally, do you see how insane it is to claim we have a liberal legal system because we're more liberal than one of the most oppressive/repressive society on earth?

Hmmm...I think we can include corruption and torture...just not as institutionalized?

Exactly. And even though a lower portion of our prisoners are tortured, we have such a large percentage of the entire population in jail, that a higher portion of our overall population gets tortured than in almost any country in the world.

[Loki]

How many hands are we cutting off?

No Western country does this.

How many stonings are taking place?

No Western country does this.

Trial by jury as opposed to religious officials

No Western country does this.

Blasphemy is not illegal

No Western country does this.

Number of lynchings

No Western country does this.

Reasonable Doubt standard

This standard can only exist in a common law system. No Western common law country uses a lower standard.

Chain of evidence requirements

The same is true in every Western country.

The use of science and expert testimony

The same is true in every Western country.

Media allowed to be within the court

This actually hurts defendants because everyone sees who they are.

Type of executions tend to be mild compared to other great economic powers in the world (Japan/China in terms of GDP)

Japan has "harsher" executions, but also far, far fewer. No Western European or Anglo-Saxon country even allows the death penalty.

So are you just trolling here? Your standard is Saudi Arabia. Ultimately, the leniency of a legal system is determined by conviction rates, percentage of population in jail, and severity of punishments. We're top of the world in one, and are in the same category as some very repressive regimes when it comes to the other two (granted, we're not Saudi Arabia).

[GGT]

What's your point, Lewk? That too often being under-age is used as an "excuse" to be lenient when a crime has been committed?

Have you heard about the Penn State fraternity hazing death, where defendants' lawyers are claiming the same damn thing?

[Lewkowski]

What's your point, Lewk? That too often being under-age is used as an "excuse" to be lenient when a crime has been committed?

Have you heard about the Penn State fraternity hazing death, where defendants' lawyers are claiming the same damn thing?

Yes that is my point exactly. 17 is old enough to know better, it should in NO way mitigate sentencing. As far as the Penn State issue I'm not that familiar with the case but the argument that 'they were young' should hold no water. The fact that the hazing was voluntary to a degree makes more sense.

[Aimless]

Why are American conservatives always so eager to emulate Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under Taliban rule? You'd think developed western countries would make for better yardsticks.

[Lewkowski]

Why are American conservatives always so eager to emulate Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under Taliban rule? You'd think developed western countries would make for better yardsticks.

Because those countries don't always get it right and the base level of crime is different? We have millions of illegal criminals that have poured into our country - making it an apples to oranges comparison. Furthermore there are unique cultural problems in America that generate crime. And finally soft sanctions on criminals can eventually lead to really horrific crimes. I mean heck Norway has pretty cushy prisons and it had the largest lone gunman shooting in the world!

[Lewkowski]

Are you suggesting outcomes matter more than process? Because our process is extremely liberal giving every opportunity for the criminal to walk.

If a nation has more crime it will have a higher incarceration rate. To think otherwise is kinda crazy.

[Loki]

Are you suggesting outcomes matter more than process? Because our process is extremely liberal giving every opportunity for the criminal to walk.

If a nation has more crime it will have a higher incarceration rate. To think otherwise is kinda crazy.

Yes, I am suggesting that jailing people for crimes that people don't get jailed for in other countries and giving longer sentences is not "extremely liberal."

You mean giving people rights? You know just about every democracy (and even many non-democracies) in the world does that, right? You're still using Saudi Arabia as the comparison, Lewk.

[EyeKhan]

So how long should Francisco stay in prison for? Poor 'child' probably had it rough and didn't know any better right? Poor little guy didn't have his brain fully developed couldn't know what he was doing was bad right? So how long before you think this 'minor' should go free and go out and rape and burglarize again?

What if he serves his sentence without getting tortured, while in prison gets psychological treatment/counselling for whatever it is that's wrong in his head, and on release finds a job to become a tax paying contributor to his local community?

I take some small condolence in the fact the little worthless shit will likely get raped in jail. Here's hoping he gets killed in prison before this garbage gets set free by the liberal court system.

You're just as sick a fuck as these criminals.

[Loki]

Yes Rand, let's use a law that gets invoked to issue a fine once a decade to determine the severity of a country's legal system. I should note that it's still legal to shoot a Welshman with a longbow in Liverpool.

[RandBlade]

Yes Rand, let's use a law that gets invoked to issue a fine once a decade to determine the severity of a country's legal system.

When did I saw we should do that?

Lewk's a fool if he thinks that America is liberal (even with his definition) by western standards. Just because Lewk is a fool doesn't mean I can't hold you to a higher standard and nitpick when you're wrong.

I should note that it's still legal to shoot a Welshman with a longbow in Liverpool.

I was talking about real laws not urban legends: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35376020

[Lewkowski]

When did I saw we should do that?

Lewk's a fool if he thinks that America is liberal (even with his definition) by western standards. Just because Lewk is a fool doesn't mean I can't hold you to a higher standard and nitpick when you're wrong.

I bolded the portion that is relevant. Why is it always western standards were should compare ourselves to? There is a big world out there. I really don't get what y'all have against Japan.

[Loki]

I bolded the portion that is relevant. Why is it always western standards were should compare ourselves to? There is a big world out there. I really don't get what y'all have against Japan.

The same Japan that jails 1/20 the portion of its population as the US? The Japan that executes 3 people per year? The Japan that emphasizes rehabilitation over punishment for juveniles?

http://apjjf.org/2017/09/Ellis.html

[Lewkowski]

The same Japan that jails 1/20 the portion of its population as the US? The Japan that executes 3 people per year? The Japan that emphasizes rehabilitation over punishment for juveniles?

http://apjjf.org/2017/09/Ellis.html

That one flew over your head didn't it.

[Timbuk2]

I bolded the portion that is relevant. Why is it always western standards were should compare ourselves to? There is a big world out there. I really don't get what y'all have against Japan.

So you really don't believe the US should hold itself to a higher standard?

[Lewkowski]

So you really don't believe the US should hold itself to a higher standard?

Depends on the standard of course. However if we are making a comparison of US system to other systems in the world it should be other systems in the world. We unfortunately have some severe disadvantages (bordering next to a near failed state where liberals *and some republicans* have allowed mass migration to occur) and a really toxic school system run by corrupt unions.

Though I would even challenge the basic premise of using outcomes to determine how 'liberal' a system is. If you have more crime you should have more people in prison. This isn't a difficult concept.

[RandBlade]

I bolded the portion that is relevant. Why is it always western standards were should compare ourselves to? There is a big world out there. I really don't get what y'all have against Japan.

Because we are western nations and western standard are our standards. Though I would include a couple of Eastern nations in that (eg Australia and New Zealand are geographically East but culturally West). But fine compare yourselves to Japan, even then the claim still holds true.

Please name a single democratic nation anywhere in the globe that you respect that you believe America is more liberal (by your definition) than.

EDIT: I could name one, but only one. Not sure if you could even do that.

[Lewkowski]

Because we are western nations and western standard are our standards. Though I would include a couple of Eastern nations in that (eg Australia and New Zealand are geographically East but culturally West). But fine compare yourselves to Japan, even then the claim still holds true.

Please name a single democratic nation anywhere in the globe that you respect that you believe America is more liberal (by your definition) than.

EDIT: I could name one, but only one. Not sure if you could even do that.

I'll give you Australia is culturally West but Japan? The reason for bringing up Japan is a slightly tongue in cheek argument against Loki about using the 'West' (Essentially America, Australia, Canada and Europe) as the only measuring stick because hey we're white!

[EyeKhan]

I bolded the portion that is relevant. Why is it always western standards were should compare ourselves to? There is a big world out there. I really don't get what y'all have against Japan.

The point you should be getting is that the idea the US has a "liberal" judicial system, measured against almost all other modern democratic "first-world" nations, is laughably inaccurate.

You can accurately say it is "liberal" as measured against something else, like what you would like to be, or North Korea, or Saudi Arabia (as many have said here). But the US is not liberal among nations most of us think of as it's national peers.

[Ominous Gamer]

To stress how you cant really point to a law on the books, and really should focus on the last time it was enforced. The US has 6 states with blasphemy laws still on the books.

[RandBlade]

No but you can point to laws that have been used to secure convictions or even prosecutions in recent years which I did. Many of the nations mentioned have had prosecutions (some successful) this decade. Certainly more than "No western country".

Even dormant laws can result in convictions though if the law has not been superseded.

[Ominous Gamer]

No but you can point to laws that have been used to secure convictions or even prosecutions in recent years which I did.
.

You listed 9 countries and only provided examples of the laws being tested in 3. We could throw israel in there as a free pass for 4, if anyone considers it Western.

[RandBlade]

One conviction a decade (which resulted in a fine) is really something worthwhile to bring up in a debate about the leniency of a legal system.

I did not deem it worthwhile to bring up. I did not bring it up. I did respond to a fallacious claim you made. Have you mistaken me for Lewk perhaps? He brought it up.

You listed 9 countries and only provided examples of the laws being tested in 3. We could throw israel in there as a free pass for 4, if anyone considers it Western.

Even excluding the dormant nations (where the law could still be applied) I would still say 3 or 4 > "No western country". Wouldn't you?

[Aimless]

I think perhaps you might want to clarify your definition of the term "recent".