Why Police are Needed

[Lewkowski]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...one-liked.html

"The rest of the horrific assault is not captured on video but the mother of the victim told 7News, she was then dragged to the ground and stomped on.

In a Facebook comment, the distraught mum said her daughter was left bleeding from the nose and mouth, suffered broken ribs, severe bruising and a suspected broken cheekbone."

That site blurs the faces here is the YT video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9FPYyjcgb4

Now this didn't happen in America however this is the quintessential reason why police are needed. There are evil violent monsters among us and police are needed to make sure they can't do this sort of violence with impunity.

[Aimless]

It is genuinely embarrassing that you think this has anything to do with policing.

[Steely Glint]

'Police are aware of footage of an assault at a train station circulating on social media,' a Victoria Police spokesperson told Daily Mail Australia.

'Based on the information provided at this stage we have not been able to confirm if a complaint has been made in relation to the incident.'

I mean, thank god these guys are here.

There was another incident this month, where an aboriginal boy had his legs kicked out from under him by some roaming thugs and landed on his face and had to go to hospital. Luckily, however, the incident was caught on film and so the police where able to find the officers responsible and place them on administrative leave.

[Aimless]

I mean, thank god these guys are here.

There was another incident this month, where an aboriginal boy had his legs kicked out from under him by some roaming thugs and landed on his face and had to go to hospital. Luckily, however, the incident was caught on film and so the police where able to find the officers responsible and place them on administrative leave.

Very nice

[Ominous Gamer]

Does this thread suggest lewk is dumb enough to think that defund means that there would be no police to investigate crimes like this? It's not like current police levels did anything to stop this from happening, so it's an extremely stupid example to use for why police are needed.

[RandBlade]

Does this thread suggest lewk is dumb enough to think that defund means that there would be no police to investigate crimes like this? It's not like current police levels did anything to stop this from happening, so it's an extremely stupid example to use for why police are needed.

This may come as a surprise to Lewk but having lived in Victoria I can assure you the Victorian Police are not kitted out like soldiers or equipped with rocket launchers.

[Lewkowski]

Does this thread suggest lewk is dumb enough to think that defund means that there would be no police to investigate crimes like this? It's not like current police levels did anything to stop this from happening, so it's an extremely stupid example to use for why police are needed.

While some folks do want to defund the police in terms of redistributing some of their budget for other things, a lot of crazies are actually wanting police forces to be abolished.

[LittleFuzzy]

While some folks do want to defund the police in terms of redistributing some of their budget for other things, a lot of crazies are actually wanting police forces to be abolished.

Most of the "crazies actually wanting police forces to be abolished" want the existing police DEPARTMENTS abolished. To make way for new ones with better training, less militarized funding, altered priorities and cultures. There are only a handful of crazies that want no police at all and those crazies are from your side of the things, the maniac side of the libertarians

[RandBlade]

While some folks do want to defund the police in terms of redistributing some of their budget for other things, a lot of crazies are actually wanting police forces to be abolished.

Like how Reagan dealt with Air Traffic Controllers in 1981.

GOP used to support dealing with trouble and replacing it. What happened to your principles?

[Ominous Gamer]

While some folks do want to defund the police in terms of redistributing some of their budget for other things, a lot of crazies are actually wanting police forces to be abolished.

Do you catch yourself when you do this? When it feeds your position you fixate on the most fringe opinion farthest from sanity or your position (regardless of actual support), but when a IRL lewk makes the news you ignore it as fringe or crazy.

I know this was recently pointed out to you once already, which triggered you to move on by posting another "lol death" thread, but you did the same thing here again.

[Steely Glint]

Lewk, please tell me you don't think 'abolish the police' means we'll just have no law enforcement afterwards?

[Wraith]

Lewk, please tell me you don't think 'abolish the police' means we'll just have no law enforcement afterwards?

"Abolish the police" is an actual movement that wants to end police completely, though it's smaller than the "defund the police" group. The CHAZ is big on it.

[Steely Glint]

"Abolish the police" is an actual movement that wants to end police completely, though it's smaller than the "defund the police" group. The CHAZ is big on it.

Believe it or not the modern, quasi military police forces we have today are, in most countries, only a couple of hundred years old and are not the be all and end all of law enforcement or keeping communities safe. I know there are people out there who do genuinely think we can do away enforcement entirely and I don't think that's viable, but I do think now is definitely the time to look at different ways of doing things.

Like, do we really need a group of armed, possible (probably) racist people trained to think of everything from their fellow humans to mundane objects like Egg McMuffins and planters full of gravel as a potential threat enforcing things like traffic laws?

[Wraith]

Believe it or not the modern, quasi military police forces we have today are, in most countries, only a couple of hundred years old and are not the be all and end all of law enforcement or keeping communities safe. I know there are people out there who do genuinely think we can do away enforcement entirely and I don't think that's viable, but I do think now is definitely the time to look at different ways of doing things.

Like, do we really need a group of armed, possible (probably) racist people trained to think of everything from their fellow humans to mundane objects like Egg McMuffins and planters full of gravel as a potential threat enforcing things like traffic laws?

I'm on board for police reform. I think anyone who supports abolishing the police isn't thinking it through at all, and the defund the police push is short-sighted and a bad idea; near universally underfunded police departments is one of the causes of the problems we have now. If we're going to stick officers with shit pay and very few protections, nobody should be surprised when it starts attracting the type of person who just wants power over others, because that's the only incentive we've allowed. We also shouldn't be encouraging and adversarial relationship between the police and citizens when the stated goal is the opposite.

That said, one thing that came out of this that I think has a good chance of working is what Albuquerque, New Mexico is doing (and I think I've heard others are doing/considering it), where it's creating a new "Community Safety Department" staffed with mental health professionals that will take over the police responsibilities for non-violent issues like loitering, noise complaints, or arguments with the neighbors - all the small things that police are over-armed for. This type of reform is much easier for me to support than just straight slashing of police budgets, because it's actually addressing the problems and not just out to punish someone as vengeance.

[Being]

...and the defund the police push is short-sighted and a bad idea...

That said, one thing that came out of this that I think has a good chance of working is what Albuquerque, New Mexico is doing (and I think I've heard others are doing/considering it), where it's creating a new "Community Safety Department" staffed with mental health professionals that will take over the police responsibilities for non-violent issues like loitering, noise complaints, or arguments with the neighbors - all the small things that police are over-armed for. This type of reform is much easier for me to support than just straight slashing of police budgets, because it's actually addressing the problems and not just out to punish someone as vengeance.

The solution you present requires funding whether it be new/higher taxes or moving funds from somewhere else. The defund the police push is for moving funds the police will no longer need to the "Community Safety Department" that assume the responsibilities relinquished by police. The defund the police movement does not advocate just straight slashing of police budgets.

[Loki]

I'm on board for police reform. I think anyone who supports abolishing the police isn't thinking it through at all, and the defund the police push is short-sighted and a bad idea; near universally underfunded police departments is one of the causes of the problems we have now. If we're going to stick officers with shit pay and very few protections, nobody should be surprised when it starts attracting the type of person who just wants power over others, because that's the only incentive we've allowed. We also shouldn't be encouraging and adversarial relationship between the police and citizens when the stated goal is the opposite.

That said, one thing that came out of this that I think has a good chance of working is what Albuquerque, New Mexico is doing (and I think I've heard others are doing/considering it), where it's creating a new "Community Safety Department" staffed with mental health professionals that will take over the police responsibilities for non-violent issues like loitering, noise complaints, or arguments with the neighbors - all the small things that police are over-armed for. This type of reform is much easier for me to support than just straight slashing of police budgets, because it's actually addressing the problems and not just out to punish someone as vengeance.

Underfunded police departments compared to what? And poor salaries compared to what? It's not abnormal to see campus police make as much as professors.

[Loki]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...one-liked.html

"The rest of the horrific assault is not captured on video but the mother of the victim told 7News, she was then dragged to the ground and stomped on.

In a Facebook comment, the distraught mum said her daughter was left bleeding from the nose and mouth, suffered broken ribs, severe bruising and a suspected broken cheekbone."

That site blurs the faces here is the YT video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9FPYyjcgb4

Now this didn't happen in America however this is the quintessential reason why police are needed. There are evil violent monsters among us and police are needed to make sure they can't do this sort of violence with impunity.

Did the police prevent the assault?

[Aimless]

There's no need to engage this impotent dull-witted cockroach in good faith.

[Aimless]

High risk compared to what? High stress compared to what? Being a cop is probably not even among the top ten deadliest occupations in the US. Cops are poorly trained, and receive high salaries relative to that training. Much of the "stress" and perceived risk can be attributed to police behavior that tends to make mundane situations more dangerous—for everyone involved—than they need to be. It's not exhaustion that's the problem; cops trying to make bad arrests at the end of a shift reflects the financial incentive of getting overtime for the time-consuming but low-effort task of processing an arrest.

[Steely Glint]

NYPD total budget is $11 billion, which is split between $5.6 billion operating costs and another $5.3 billion of "centrally allocated" costs, which includes pensions and "fringe benefits" (whatever that means) (source). NY has a population of 8.3 million. I do not know how to contextualize this with other police deparments.

LAPD has a budget of $1.5 billion and the LA population is 3.9 million

Chicago police budget is $1.8 billion and a population of 2.7 million.

The London Met has a budget of $4.11 billion, and policies a population of 8.9 million.

West Midlands Police (includes jurisdiction over Birmingham, the UK's second city) has a budget of $558 million, and policies 2.8 million people.

Greater Manchester Police has a budget of £647 million with a population of 2.7 million.

The Paris Police Prefecture has a budget of $1.5 billion and a population of 6 million.

The Berlin Police have a budget of 1.5 billion euros and a population of 3.7 million.

NYPD with operating costs	$674 per capita
NYPD operating costs + centrally allocated funding	$1325 per capita
LAPD	$384 per capita
CPD	$666 per capita
London Met	$461 per capita
West Midlands	$188 per capita
Greater Manchester	$239 per capita
Paris Police	$250 per capita
Berlin Police	$405 per capita

In what universe are the US police under funded?

Also, here's a chart (using 2017 numbers) of the police budget of various US cities as a percentage of total expenditure:

[Ominous Gamer]

In most states it takes longer (in required hours) to become a hairdresser than a police officer.

Cute graph in here that explains what that training is spent on to, which is commonly pointed out as one of the problems people have with the way the police are managed.

According to the report in that link they get about a week's worth of training concerning law, but more than double that for firearms and self defense.

[Lewkowski]

In most states it takes longer (in required hours) to become a hairdresser than a police officer.

Cute graph in here that explains what that training is spent on to, which is commonly pointed out as one of the problems people have with the way the police are managed.

According to the report in that link they get about a week's worth of training concerning law, but more than double that for firearms and self defense.

The absolute insanity of lengthy licensing and education requirements for being a hairdresser is a classic example of government overreach. It creates artificial barriers of entry, driving up prices for the consumer.

[Enoch the Red]

The absolute insanity of lengthy licensing and education requirements for being a hairdresser is a classic example of government overreach. It creates artificial barriers of entry, driving up prices for the consumer.

But it might be a fair criticism that agents of the state involved directly in the use of force against its citizens might require more in the way of training than they currently get.

[Lewkowski]

But it might be a fair criticism that agents of the state involved directly in the use of force against its citizens might require more in the way of training than they currently get.

I'm actually OK with providing more funding for training.

[Hazir]

But it might be a fair criticism that agents of the state involved directly in the use of force against its citizens might require more in the way of training than they currently get.

For criminals who don't wear gear as if they are at war with their own people we generally see prison time as an appropriate response. Why would this particular type of thug have a right to be treated with velvet gloves? Don't you think the risk of doing time in prison would be an incentive to keep these people on the straight and narrow?

[Enoch the Red]

For criminals who don't wear gear as if they are at war with their own people we generally see prison time as an appropriate response. Why would this particular type of thug have a right to be treated with velvet gloves? Don't you think the risk of doing time in prison would be an incentive to keep these people on the straight and narrow?

Were you intending to quote me here? Not exactly sure the relevance if so.

[Hazir]

When was the last time the police did anything for you that you consider helpful ?

[wiggin]

I think the training length question is an interesting one. Let's look at recruit training for militaries. They're typically on the order of 3-6 months depending on the military and specialty. And there, you probably should be learning more than a typical police officer. Is this an adequate amount of time? Almost certainly not. I think the assumption (perhaps even explicitly so) is that additional training will happen in their units over time. Is this the standard in police departments in the US? I haven't a clue, but I would hope so. Certainly the partner system seems to be designed to work as a mentorship/training program for rookies, and I hope there are more formal opportunities for additional training.

I think the question has less to do with the specific type or length of training (which doubtless could be improved) and more to do with norms in the departments about use of force, interactions with minorities, etc. It really doesn't matter how much training you have if contradictory behavior is widely accepted in practice.

[Steely Glint]

They're typically on the order of 3-6 months depending on the military and specialty

Basic training in the US Army is 6 months, where you learn how to be a solider, then you go and do AIT and learn how do whatever job you're going to do which can be anything up to a year.

I think the question has less to do with the specific type or length of training (which doubtless could be improved) and more to do with norms in the departments about use of force, interactions with minorities, etc. It really doesn't matter how much training you have if contradictory behavior is widely accepted in practice.

Yeah, this is the key point. Given the culture and how the training works right now, if you give them more training they're just going to come out better at murdering people.

[Aimless]

Yeah, this is the key point. Given the culture and how the training works right now, if you give them more training they're just going to come out better at murdering people.

It might—might!—discourage many people who are poorly suited to the roles police would ideally play in a functioning and decent society.

Were you intending to quote me here? Not exactly sure the relevance if so.

He's saying if cops knew they risk going to prison for their thuggery, they might behave better without requiring extensive training. Ofc Lewk's plan to teach all cops aikido is going to req. much more time.

EDIT: scooped... even "thuggery", it's uncanny and disturbing.