German Placing RFIDs in ID cards

[Hazir]

Well, thank god identity theft isn't a problem and never happens because of this "other security".

Welll, it is a fact that identity theft is worse in the US and UK. It might go too far to say that ID-cards are central to the explanation of the difference, but is sure shows that ID-cards do not make ID-theft easier.

[Wraith]

Welll, it is a fact that identity theft is worse in the US and UK. It might go too far to say that ID-cards are central to the explanation of the difference, but is sure shows that ID-cards do not make ID-theft easier.

It really doesn't. It doesn't give you any information one way or another on the impact of ID cards on identity theft.

[Hazir]

It really doesn't. It doesn't give you any information one way or another on the impact of ID cards on identity theft.

Still, since ID theft is more rampant in countries that oppose ID-cards it is highly unlikely that ID-cards make ID-theft easier.

[Steely Glint]

I said the card is cheaper than the passport and it is because it is.

Does the passport also have RFID or some other piece of chip technology?

Second, it's not so easy to fake a card that has a digitized picture on it twice, once visible and once not so visible.

Why is that so difficult? More unbreakable state of the art encryption?

The ID card by the way is only a means of verification of identification. I don't know any service you could get with your ID-card alone besides banks who would have a copy of your ID-card on record.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. An Identification Card is a means of verifying identification? No shit.

AND; that anglo-hysteria about ID cards predates the RFID chip and the Big Brother Plans of the Brown administration by decades.

So what the fuck is the point of bringing it up in a thread on RFID chips in German cards?

Well, it is a fact that identity theft is worse in the US and UK.

Citation needed.

[Steely Glint]

Still, since ID theft is more rampant in countries that oppose ID-cards it is highly unlikely that ID-cards make ID-theft easier.

I like the way "American and the UK" has now become "countries which oppose ID cards".

[Hazir]

I like the way "American and the UK" has now become "countries which oppose ID cards".

For the simple reason that the two are synonymous in this discussion. If you are trying to 'win' this by semantics you are kindly invited to go fuck yourself. Also, I would venture to that the absence of any statistics at all about identity theft in countries other than the US, UK and Australia is a signifcant pointer towards identity theft not being a big issue in other countries.

As for who brought up identity theft in this topic at all.... well that would be you.

[Nessus]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence

[wiggin]

Hazir, seriously you need to check out your reasoning and rhetoric on this one. Firstly, as Wraith implies, a correlation (even if true) does not necessarily imply causation. Tying opposition to national ID cards with or without RFID to identity theft is a tenuous link at best at has no proven causation whatsoever. Hell, you could turn your reasoning on its head - maybe ID theft is more common in these countries for other reasons (demographics, structure of financial institutions, crime rates, whatever), which makes people much more likely to be opposed to ID cards given its increased chances of identity theft. Seriously.

Furthermore, when you tried to back up your assertion about identity theft with data, you came up with a big blank and tried rationalizing it away with a truly laughable argument: "If I can't find the data, it must not be important!"

Really, we expect better.

[Hazir]

First of all I did not link the two, so I feel no urge whatsoever to give evidence either way. And that will stay so untill the person who brought the subject up in combination to rfids in ID-cards gives us any substantial information about there being any link. As things stand I am perfectly happy with my assumptions.

Also Wraith wasn't the first one who claimed there was no correlation. His post was in reaction to my statement that there is no reverse correlation visible, the two are not excluding eachother in the least. I also did state my assumption AFTER saying what Wraith repeats more affirmatively in his reply.

And Nessus, in the case of a problem that supposedly is affecting large sections of society the absense of reporting, statistics is telling. Unless you are living under a dictatorship that represses such reporting effectively.

[Steely Glint]

For the simple reason that the two are synonymous in this discussion.

No, they're not. The list of countries without ID cards (I assume this is what you mean by 'oppose', since it doesn't make sense to say that, for example, Britain as a whole 'opposes' ID cards since there was recently a proposal for one here which started out with something like 70% support) includes the UK, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Ireland and a few others. The list of countries with non-compulsory identification cards includes the US, Finland, France, Italy and others. So your attempt to paint the ID card issue as some sort of gulf between 'anglo' countries and the rest of Europe/the world is just bullshit.

Also, I would venture to that the absence of any statistics at all about identity theft in countries other than the US, UK and Australia is a signifcant pointer towards identity theft not being a big issue in other countries.

I'd venture to call that bullshit too. And there are non English speaking nations without ID cards, so even if you could find evidence of more identity theft in UK, US and Australia it would prove absolutely nothing about ID cards.

As for who brought up identity theft in this topic at all.... well that would be you.

No, Hazir, that would be you; you said having them makes ID theft harder in an otherwise extremely sparse list of alleged benefits for ID cards which also included them being smaller than passports and that the Netherlands card was somewhat cheaper than a passport, though I guess you still have to have both if you want to travel outside the EU so it's more of an additional expense than an alternative one.

[Hazir]

Ah yes, I missed that one post in which I said something off the cuff in a sidelines about the situation in the USA. Well Steely, congratulations, I have just decided you're going to get zero responses from me for the time being. And please take the advise I gave you in my previous post, the emotion if felt is even stronger now. And don't forget to feel smug about not having ID-cards, it makes you a better human being.

[Steely Glint]

Uh, keep working on those post-fuck up face saving tactics, I think you're pretty much getting the oppose effect you're after there.

[Illusions]

Uh, keep working on post-fuck up face saving tactics, I think you're pretty much getting the oppose effect you're after there.

This is pretty much standard fare Hazir debating here. He's done it plenty of times before on a number of different topics. It always ends with him just not communicating with people. It pretty much breaks down to you better tell Hazir what he wants to hear, or he won't bother speaking with you, facts, figures, and professional opinions be damned, Hazir's are the only ones that count.

[Hazir]

This is pretty much standard fare Hazir debating here. He's done it plenty of times before on a number of different topics. It always ends with him just not communicating with people. It pretty much breaks down to you better tell Hazir what he wants to hear, or he won't bother speaking with you, facts, figures, and professional opinions be damned, Hazir's are the only ones that count.

Yeah, make this into a discussion about me you asshole. I don't need any of you lot for validation of my communication skills. Half of the time these discussions derail entirely because people here can't see the difference between a discussion online and a scientific discourse and/or fighting out some feud they have with a user.