Rand, if you could humour me one last time (heh, yeah right) Just ignore me if you grow weary of this discussion, but I'm rather enjoying it.

If I throw a dice, the power of my throw, the direction and the spin I give to the dice will ultimately determine the number the dice will read. At the moment I have released the dice, the outcome is set. Does that mean that technically in your view luck or chance is not involved in the result? The reason I ask is, throwing a dice doesn't really require decision making, but there is an influence. The influence is not directed at achieving a certain result but you would be able to calculate at which position the dice will ultimately come to rest. In my view this is clearly a result that is beyond one's control, and thus subject to luck or chance. But if I understand you correctly this could be a grey area from your point of view. I am interested in knowing whether you would attribute the outcome to chance, since the one who throws the dice is not skilful enough to deliberately influence the chances. On the other hand. since he is the one throwing, the way he throws will determine the result so it's not chance. In effect I'm wondering what weighs heavier, decision-making or the actual influence on the process. Or neither and it's a bit of this and a bit of that.