How much impact does/should 'luck' have on our lives?

[RandBlade]

Which still does not take the random chance part out of the equation... we're talking in circles here.

You guys are projecting an amount of control over one's life which one simply does not have. You're also most likely suffering from confirmation bias in that regard.

What amount of control do we "simply not have"? Nobody has claimed we have 100% control, nor has anyone claimed 0% control so I'm curious how you could be so adamant that we're wrong? I have merely argued it is possible to influence events. Do you deny even that level of control?

Rand, if you could humour me one last time (heh, yeah right) Just ignore me if you grow weary of this discussion, but I'm rather enjoying it.

If I throw a dice, the power of my throw, the direction and the spin I give to the dice will ultimately determine the number the dice will read. At the moment I have released the dice, the outcome is set. Does that mean that technically in your view luck or chance is not involved in the result? The reason I ask is, throwing a dice doesn't really require decision making, but there is an influence. The influence is not directed at achieving a certain result but you would be able to calculate at which position the dice will ultimately come to rest. In my view this is clearly a result that is beyond one's control, and thus subject to luck or chance. But if I understand you correctly this could be a grey area from your point of view. I am interested in knowing whether you would attribute the outcome to chance, since the one who throws the dice is not skilful enough to deliberately influence the chances. On the other hand. since he is the one throwing, the way he throws will determine the result so it's not chance. In effect I'm wondering what weighs heavier, decision-making or the actual influence on the process. Or neither and it's a bit of this and a bit of that.

Technically I suppose the result of the die is not due to chance, it is the result of actions. However unless you are either using eg loaded dice, or a particular technique, the control over the result that anyone has is so minimal that we put it down to chance. It is worth noting that in Vegas etc actions are taken to maximise the randomness of dice rolls and prevent skilled people from controling the result of the die.

Note that you and I are viewing control in different ways too I suspect. If I roll a loaded dice knowing it will result in a six - then you find out afterwards that it was a loaded die then from your perspective when it landed on a six did it do so due to chance? I would say no, my actions are not chance even from your perspective. They may have been unknown to you and maybe even unknowable, but that does not mean they happened by chance. You put down to chance what you yourself can't control, I would put down to chance moreover that which nobody or nothing can reasonably control. Chance implies to me a sense of randomness that does not exist if anyone makes the decision, regardless of who that anyone is. Is that an accurate description of your views?

Humour me but for you what is the difference between chance and luck? Are the two words interchangeable to you as that is how it seems to be getting used?

[Khendraja'aro]

What amount of control do we "simply not have"? Nobody has claimed we have 100% control, nor has anyone claimed 0% control so I'm curious how you could be so adamant that we're wrong? I have merely argued it is possible to influence events. Do you deny even that level of control?

You're trying to paint a picture where your "influence" does give you some measure of control. It's only the illusion of control, however.

That's what I mean with "confirmation bias" - you do your thing and try to influence stuff. And when it actually happens the way you want, then that's only due to your "influence" and not due to the hundreds of other factors which also needed to happen but were outside your sphere of influence.

[RandBlade]

That's simply wrong Khen, and the terminology shows it.

If I claimed I could guarantee someonething happens, then I am claiming it is totally under my control. If I say that I can influence to make something more (or less) likely then it is claiming that it is only partially under my control, while still acknowledging that the result is not certain due to outside factors. Claiming to be able to influence events does not deny other factors outside our control, in fact it explicitly recognises them.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Technically I suppose the result of the die is not due to chance, it is the result of actions. However unless you are either using eg loaded dice, or a particular technique, the control over the result that anyone has is so minimal that we put it down to chance. It is worth noting that in Vegas etc actions are taken to maximise the randomness of dice rolls and prevent skilled people from controling the result of the die.

Note that you and I are viewing control in different ways too I suspect. If I roll a loaded dice knowing it will result in a six - then you find out afterwards that it was a loaded die then from your perspective when it landed on a six did it do so due to chance? I would say no, my actions are not chance even from your perspective. They may have been unknown to you and maybe even unknowable, but that does not mean they happened by chance. You put down to chance what you yourself can't control, I would put down to chance moreover that which nobody or nothing can reasonably control. Chance implies to me a sense of randomness that does not exist if anyone makes the decision, regardless of who that anyone is. Is that an accurate description of your views?

No.

[RandBlade]

OK, please could you explain where I went wrong?

[Being]

OK, please could you explain where I went wrong?

Your wrong turn began with you claiming that your lot in life has nothing to do with luck. "You make your own luck" was your response to a very fundamental question about how it is you have better opportunities than some you chavishly call hobos. You didn't choose to be born into a functional family in a country that provides a decent standard of living so how do you explain how that happened? It's funny watching you dance around your smug attitude though. Carry on.

[Ziggy Stardust]

OK, please could you explain where I went wrong?

Sure

You put down to chance what you yourself can't control

[Lebanese Dragon]

I think luck comes under two basic definition. The first being simply something you can't control happening to go your way (or the opposite good/bad luck). The second definition is something that ought not happen happens to or against your benefit. Two players go in on Hold'em one player has pocket Aces and the other 2, 7 and the guy with 2, 7 wins. The guy with Aces played the hand to the exact situation they wanted, and still lost.

What's it mean to make your own luck. I really think when most people use this phrase it really means don't rely on luck, don't just sit and do nothing, you can influence the number and chance of events going your way. If you want a job, don't sit at home every day, apply online, talk to friends about job opportunities, apply at stores you come by, whatever it is you're looking for. That's "making your own luck". Creating chances for yourself. At the end of the day it's not even luck that you eventually got hired, you created all the opportunities for yourself. now it's lucky if that person sitting at home everyday gets hired. I think the phrase "you make your own luck" is actually more about saying life isn't about luck it's about what you do. People aren't born lucky or born unlucky, there are people who act, and there are people who wait for things to act on them.

[Being]

People aren't born lucky or born unlucky, there are people who act, and there are people who wait for things to act on them.

Luck is not a trait. Of course no one is born with a trait that makes them more lucky or unlucky than others. Someone else said it here, luck is an after the fact obsevation of the lot you were dealt. And it has nothing to do with choosing to take action or waiting for action to affect them...that is choice not luck. Some people are born with more choices than others...that is luck.

[Lebanese Dragon]

And it has nothing to do with choosing to take action or waiting for action to affect them...that is choice not luck. Some people are born with more choices than others...that is luck.

That's exactly what make your own luck refers to. Don't rely on luck. That person who made choices that helped them aren't winning/being successful because they're lucky, it's because they posititioned themselves for success.

I think everyone agrees luck is simply any result that is currently viewed as chance based. That component is luck. The rest is not luck. You're lucky when the odds are against you, yet you succeed, and you're unlucky when the opposite happens.

[RandBlade]

Some people are born with more choices than others...that is luck.

In the modern world? Really?

Yes there's some advantages no doubt for some newborns, but the choices we make in our adult lives far outweigh the opportunities at birth.

[RandBlade]

I love the perennial whining about luck at birth etc in today's societies. My favourite post-war PM was a female who'd grown up the daughter of a grocer, before becoming a scientist and then entering then-male world of politics.. The US currently has a President who grew up in a poor inter-racial family with a broken home and sucked into a teenage world of drugs.

But no, I suppose they were both just born lucky.

[Ominous Gamer]

Your back to back posting doesn't actually refute the point Being made.

I'm not sure how cherry picking examples much helps your stance either

[Lebanese Dragon]

If you find what percentage of people are born in decently well off nations. Then you can say that's your odds of having a huge quality of life increase. I think the majority of the world does not have all of those opportunities. how many billions are in china, india etc.. not to say those are bad places but being born there affords you perhaps less opportunities in some ways. The people born in the U.S. are more lucky. I think where you're born adn who you're born to, help your chances for success a lot. You can be a complete idiot but your dad will still give you a secure position in his company, you'll still get preferential treatment due to your wealth you're whole life. Rich kids can go into places and security is literally told to turn a blind eye to whatever they do. Sure if a politician rents out a hotel room even if it's obvoiusl he's doin' cocaine up there, no one's going to say anything.

[GGT]

In the modern world? Really?

Yes there's some advantages no doubt for some newborns, but the choices we make in our adult lives far outweigh the opportunities at birth.

I love the perennial whining about luck at birth etc in today's societies. My favourite post-war PM was a female who'd grown up the daughter of a grocer, before becoming a scientist and then entering then-male world of politics.. The US currently has a President who grew up in a poor inter-racial family with a broken home and sucked into a teenage world of drugs.

But no, I suppose they were both just born lucky.

As Lebbie said, where we're born can either be a "lucky" leg-up of opportunities, or a hurdle that's nearly impossible for choosing our way out. That's why third world nations have lower life expectancy rates and higher infant mortality rates than first world nations.

There are still places in the world where simply being born female can mean you'll be disowned and sent to an orphanage, won't have access to a full education, are denied birth control, can be sent to prison for being a rape victim, may not have the right to vote or even drive a car, or are paid 0.75 cents for every dollar men earn doing the same job.

Your favorite PM was "lucky" to be born in England, at the right time in history. Our US President was "lucky" to be born in the US, at the right time in history (but that doesn't stop the "birthers" from claiming he's a Kenyan and his Presidency is illigitimate )

Whether you want to call it Luck, Chance, or Serendipity....it still matters, and has great impact on our lives.

[Aimless]

I love the perennial whining about luck at birth etc in today's societies. My favourite post-war PM was a female who'd grown up the daughter of a grocer, before becoming a scientist and then entering then-male world of politics.. The US currently has a President who grew up in a poor inter-racial family with a broken home and sucked into a teenage world of drugs.

But no, I suppose they were both just born lucky.

What the hell

[RandBlade]

What the hell

Something there you disagree with?

Do you disagree with me liking Thatcher?
Do you disagree with my describing Thatcher as "a female who'd grown up the daughter of a grocer, before becoming a scientist and then entering then-male world of politics."
Do you disagree that the current US President is Obama?
Do you disagree with my describing Obama as someone "who grew up in a poor inter-racial family with a broken home and sucked into a teenage world of drugs."

Do you think they got where the have/did because they "were both just born lucky" or not?

----------------------------------------

As Lebbie said, where we're born can either be a "lucky" leg-up of opportunities, or a hurdle that's nearly impossible for choosing our way out. That's why third world nations have lower life expectancy rates and higher infant mortality rates than first world nations.

There are still places in the world where simply being born female can mean you'll be disowned and sent to an orphanage, won't have access to a full education, are denied birth control, can be sent to prison for being a rape victim, may not have the right to vote or even drive a car, or are paid 0.75 cents for every dollar men earn doing the same job.

Your favorite PM was "lucky" to be born in England, at the right time in history. Our US President was "lucky" to be born in the US, at the right time in history (but that doesn't stop the "birthers" from claiming he's a Kenyan and his Presidency is illigitimate )

Whether you want to call it Luck, Chance, or Serendipity....it still matters, and has great impact on our lives.

I do not view where we were born as a matter of luck. It was not luck that meant that someone with half my dad's chromosomes and half my mum's chromosomes was not born somewhere like what you described. Had my parents never had sex I would never have existed. Someone else might have, but it would not have been me. If you're Buddhist or some other mumbo jumbo religion you may believe we all already have souls that were waiting for bodies - in which case yes luck might exist in the issue - but I'm atheist. I don't think I have a soul.

[Asmodian]

Funny thing is the role luck can play in ones life depends entirely on well luck..... You could make all the right choices but be unsuccessful in life or meat an unfortunate end, for example you could end up in a car accident because some moron crashed in to your car. Or you could be lazy, make the wrong choices and yet achieve success. For example I was accepted in to Oxford yet chose to go to a little known American university because it had a campus in Geneva, because it allowed me to stay with my girlfriend, who funny enough moved to Australia a year later. After finishing my MBA I hardly made much effort to find a job, and yet it so happens my friend who was a lawyer knew of a small start up company that urgently needed someone to do accounting for them who spoke Russian. And they were happy to hire me for a decent salary, the company grew to become a bank in the course of 3 year and the salary grew 10 fold as I was one of the first people in the company. Yes at some point I had to produce an effort and stay at work until 3 am to impress the owners but I would say it is largely due to luck.

[Aimless]

Something there you disagree with?

Do you disagree with me liking Thatcher?
Do you disagree with my describing Thatcher as "a female who'd grown up the daughter of a grocer, before becoming a scientist and then entering then-male world of politics."
Do you disagree that the current US President is Obama?
Do you disagree with my describing Obama as someone "who grew up in a poor inter-racial family with a broken home and sucked into a teenage world of drugs."

Do you think they got where the have/did because they "were both just born lucky" or not?

None of the above. I was just expressing my bafflement at your decision to waste your energy on presenting bad reasoning in order to counter a position that no-one in this discussion actually holds. As OG remarked, you seem also to have chosen bad arguments that actually undermine your own position. Or, that would be the case if it hadn't been about a religious belief.

[Being]

Had my parents never had sex I would never have existed.

Lucky for you they did. Oh, wait...

[Aimless]

Does anyone remember what that thing with the coin-toss tournament is called?

You know, where you have a huge coin tossing tournament and the winner in each match moves on to the next round until you have a guy who's won like 1000 coin tosses.

[Aimless]

Btw, wasn't Thatcher's father, like, a politically active man who owned two grocery stores?

[RandBlade]

Lucky for you they did. Oh, wait...

No its not lucky for me. They simply did. It is a matter of fact, not luck.

Spin it on its head, would it have been unlucky for me if they didn't? I would say no, because if they didn't I would never have existed so how can something that doesn't exist be unlucky?

[Being]

No its not lucky for me. They simply did. It is a matter of fact, not luck.

Spin it on its head, would it have been unlucky for me if they didn't? I would say no, because if they didn't I would never have existed so how can something that doesn't exist be unlucky?

Really? You're throwing a red herring at me now? Luck cannot be associated with something that does not exist. You exist. You were lucky that your parents fornicated at the precise instant that provided you existence. Your smugness is impeccable.

[Aimless]

Wait, is THAT what Fuzzy was talking about when he invoked the anthropic principle??

[Asmodian]

For the Lady Tymora!!!!

[GGT]

No its not lucky for me. They simply did. It is a matter of fact, not luck.

Spin it on its head, would it have been unlucky for me if they didn't? I would say no, because if they didn't I would never have existed so how can something that doesn't exist be unlucky?

The luck/chance part...spun on its head....would be more like Obama being born in Kenya or Jakarta. His mother was born in Kansas, studied in Hawaii, chanced to meet international visiting students, and had children with both men. There is a degree of "luck" involved there, based on timing.

[RandBlade]

Really? You're throwing a red herring at me now? Luck cannot be associated with something that does not exist. You exist. You were lucky that your parents fornicated at the precise instant that provided you existence. Your smugness is impeccable.

I am not lucky, it happened. Had it not happened I would not have existed therefore would not have been unlucky.

Did you have unprotected sex last night Being? If not, why were you trying to penalise your might-have-been offspring from last night?

The luck/chance part...spun on its head....would be more like Obama being born in Kenya or Jakarta. His mother was born in Kansas, studied in Hawaii, chanced to meet international visiting students, and had children with both men. There is a degree of "luck" involved there, based on timing.

Again that's not luck, its history. Had any of that not happened Obama would not have happened. But it did, so it did. No luck involved.

[GGT]

I am not lucky, it happened. Had it not happened I would not have existed therefore would not have been unlucky.
Again that's not luck, its history.

And history includes pieces of random "luck". Not sure how you can deny that. We can't choose our parents, our genetics, or our birth times/places.

I could also say you're lucky not to have inherited some deadly genetic disease from your parents, or that your luck extends to being born during a time of great medical advances, and also being born in the UK that provides that medical care. Ya'know, instead of being born in a third world country where the drinking water or mosquitoes can be deadly, and diarrhea! kills millions of children.

I heard a blurb recently that one survivor from Custer's Last Stand...only outlived the massacre because his horse wouldn't giddy up and go.

[RandBlade]

Just because we can't choose history doesn't make it random.