Malarkey in the US

[LittleFuzzy]

What they lose is their vacation. The plane trip is useless without the vacation. It's disingenuous to take the two separately and say, "Look, they lost nothing they weren't ready to lose anyway!"

Sure, though that's not a financial loss beyond what I've described. And yeah, now they're going to have to get shitfaced in the same pubs they're used to getting shitfaced in rather than doing so in America, which is what they Tweeted they would be doing, yes? I can't seem to get terribly worked up about that.

[Khendraja'aro]

So, you don't approve of their lifestyle and because of that it's okay what happens to them?

Rather Lewkowskian of you. Not to mention it's the same way of thinking which poses a problem for, say, gay people.

[Loki]

Trying to tie a record for the greater amount of hyperbole in a thread? You're getting there.

[LittleFuzzy]

So, you don't approve of their lifestyle and because of that it's okay what happens to them?

Rather Lewkowskian of you. Not to mention it's the same way of thinking which poses a problem for, say, gay people.

I've been clear for years that I'm not going to waste my time with your goat-getting games. When you're willing to have a civil discussion *which I've yet to see from you anywhere* which acknowledges everything I've said rather than pretending I haven't, for instance, already clearly said that these sorts of security shenanigans are dumb, ineffective, waste of time and money etc, I'll talk with you. Until then, blow it out your ass.

[Aimless]

I dunno man, if I pay for a vacation then I assume that in some way my money is equivalent to a vacation, just like it may be equivalent to eg. a computer. If I pay but don't get my vacation then my money was wasted. It's like if I ordered a computer and paid for both the computer and for shipping, was sent the wrong item, got to return the computer but was still charged for shipping it back and forth. Hey, I get it, no-one likes these two people and they seem to be taking it all right (although I don't know how well they were taking it when they were jailed, but I guess that doesn't count as a significant harm eh). If I were in a similar situation I'd be very upset, and who knows now whether or not I can avoid ending up in such a situation (other than by just avoiding the US altogether).

[Flixy]

Don't forget this also means they cannot travel to the us without a visum anymore, if at all, which could really affect them in the future (say, for work).

[LittleFuzzy]

I dunno man, if I pay for a vacation then I assume that in some way my money is equivalent to a vacation, just like it may be equivalent to eg. a computer. If I pay but don't get my vacation then my money was wasted. It's like if I ordered a computer and paid for both the computer and for shipping, was sent the wrong item, got to return the computer but was still charged for shipping it back and forth. Hey, I get it, no-one likes these two people and they seem to be taking it all right (although I don't know how well they were taking it when they were jailed, but I guess that doesn't count as a significant harm eh). If I were in a similar situation I'd be very upset, and who knows now whether or not I can avoid ending up in such a situation (other than by just avoiding the US altogether).

They didn't pay for a vacation. They paid for the plane ticket over, 1-3 days lodging that they're not getting back, and maybe a few other small expenses that don't add much more to the total. Everything else is either unspent or recoverable. And financially they got what they paid for with the plane ticket. Unmet expectations are not the same thing as losses. I think we've all pretty much learned that by the time we hit puberty. And they still can have their vacation, they just can't have the one they originally planned. This does not qualify as a gross miscarriage of justice.

[wiggin]

But maybe we can charge Family Guy with inciting crime or something.

Hear, hear! I've always known they must be guilty of something.

[Loki]

Other than tedium?

[GGT]

Question: what American slang would the UK airports or Customs have considered "dangerous language" worthy of a closer look?

[Khendraja'aro]

Maybe we should send some presidential candidates home when they want to come over - their language is certainly dangerous and violence-inciting.

Completely unrelated news: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/muslim-man-...211334769.html

[Nessus]

Maybe we should send some presidential candidates home when they want to come over - their language is certainly dangerous and violence-inciting.

While admittedly funny, seen through the lens of American Exceptionalism it would be interpreted as those militarily weak and mentally cowardly Euros cowering before Ching Ping China-man, or somesuch, which would then propel the conversation back towards the superiority of US values and where they should position most of their hyper-carriers. Talking to a wall produces more positive outcomes.

[Aimless]

They didn't pay for a vacation. They paid for the plane ticket over, 1-3 days lodging that they're not getting back, and maybe a few other small expenses that don't add much more to the total. Everything else is either unspent or recoverable. And financially they got what they paid for with the plane ticket. Unmet expectations are not the same thing as losses. I think we've all pretty much learned that by the time we hit puberty. And they still can have their vacation, they just can't have the one they originally planned. This does not qualify as a gross miscarriage of justice.

What good is half a protein? What good is half a computer? What good is express shipping if I don't get the product I've ordered? The investment was predicated on the [once/apparently] reasonable expectation of being allowed to vacation in the US. Had it been clear that they would not be allowed in they would not have invested in the plane ticket. What, they couldn't have let them know earlier that random harmless twitter messages would get them booted from the US? Do you want your society to be completely untrustworthy? Would you want that in any other area or for any other people? I don't know about gross miscarriages, but it's a dick move nonetheless and if you as a civilian were to do something like this to another civilian then you'd likely be in more trouble than the US govt is.

[Steely Glint]

Regardless, I can see that it probably wasn't intended in the literal sense. But I'm not responsible for determining intent, nor are the border control guys. They are given a name that was flagged for some comments that were seen as a potential threat on face value, they ask the individuals if they said it, and when it's confirmed they deport them. I get the logic - it's far safer to deport someone than be the idiot who let a terrorist into the country because they thought they were joking. Far better to have zero sense of humor IMO.

And has this practice prevented a single terrorist incident or saved a single life? Are their any recorded instances of a terrorist clearly stating their aim at border control or in public before traveling? Can you construct any plausible scenario where "I will destroy America" posted on twitter might actually have been meant literally? Is investigating an obvious joke on the minute chance it mighty be true an effective use of the border agents time? If you were a terrorist, might you consider having an accomplice on your flight into the US tweet something like "brb, gonna assassinate the prez" so the security apparatus can focus on him instead of you? Is this policy not, in fact, pants on head retarded?

[Aimless]

Terrorists have been known to use social media.

[LittleFuzzy]

What good is half a protein? What good is half a computer? What good is express shipping if I don't get the product I've ordered? The investment was predicated on the [once/apparently] reasonable expectation of being allowed to vacation in the US. Had it been clear that they would not be allowed in they would not have invested in the plane ticket. What, they couldn't have let them know earlier that random harmless twitter messages would get them booted from the US? Do you want your society to be completely untrustworthy? Would you want that in any other area or for any other people? I don't know about gross miscarriages, but it's a dick move nonetheless and if you as a civilian were to do something like this to another civilian then you'd likely be in more trouble than the US govt is.

I don't care, beyond the level I've already expressed. As I've said three times now, and which you keep ignoring, this is not a big issue. It does not merit my concern. Anyone on here being unemployed *as more than once of us is or has been recently, and almost all of us can expect to be at some point* is at least several times more pressing and that's an issue that can be considered more or less ubiquitous. There are tons more issues out there. Government abuse is one of my hot-button topics but as you acknowledged early on in this thread the US government was well within its rights on this, however pointless its actions may have been. The actual total effect on these guys, at least in the forseeable future, is a loss of several hundred dollars and major inconvenience. Too fucking bad.

[Ominous Gamer]

And has this practice prevented a single terrorist incident or saved a single life? Are their any recorded instances of a terrorist clearly stating their aim at border control or in public before traveling? Can you construct any plausible scenario where "I will destroy America" posted on twitter might actually have been meant literally? Is investigating an obvious joke on the minute chance it mighty be true an effective use of the border agents time? If you were a terrorist, might you consider having an accomplice on your flight into the US tweet something like "brb, gonna assassinate the prez" so the security apparatus can focus on him instead of you? Is this policy not, in fact, pants on head retarded?

a simple question arising from this.

These people who were held, and finally sent back home. Who thinks their opinion and stance towards the US has improved?

[Loki]

I guess America's foreign policy will collapse as a result of two chavs deciding they don't like the US.

[Aimless]

We should make a list of social classes, organisations, countries etc that the US can safely shaft for no good reason

[Loki]

We can start with idiots who don't have the wherewithal to not write idiotic things in public right before coming to the US.

[Aimless]

And we're back to blaming the victim

[Khendraja'aro]

We can start with idiots who don't have the wherewithal to not write idiotic things in public right before coming to the US.

"right before" = weeks?

[Flixy]

We can start with idiots who don't have the wherewithal to not write idiotic things in public right before coming to the US.

I dont think this was that idiotic, saying you're going to destroy a party isn't that idiotic. Nor was the Canadian dude talking about 'blowing away' the competition. If anything, the job of your intelligence/border patrol is to assess what are real threats and what is just 'noise', and this doesn't really make it seem like they are very good at that job. And, considering resources are not infinite, spending effort on non-threats also means spending less time on actual threats.

[Loki]

I dont think this was that idiotic, saying you're going to destroy a party isn't that idiotic. Nor was the Canadian dude talking about 'blowing away' the competition. If anything, the job of your intelligence/border patrol is to assess what are real threats and what is just 'noise', and this doesn't really make it seem like they are very good at that job. And, considering resources are not infinite, spending effort on non-threats also means spending less time on actual threats.

Erm, I fail to see how any additional resources were expanded. Presumably someone checked people's Twitter feed to make sure they didn't say anything that might be deemed threatening. Whether at that point the conclusion was that these people were or were not a threat wouldn't have any effect on the resources that were already used...As for the job of intelligence/border patrol, they're meant to err on the side of caution. Can you imagine how bad it would look if these idiots got into trouble in the US after posting that message? I don't think you realize just how arbitrary many border control decisions are; as far as those go, this decision was pretty obvious.

[Flixy]

Erm, I fail to see how any additional resources were expanded. Presumably someone checked people's Twitter feed to make sure they didn't say anything that might be deemed threatening. Whether at that point the conclusion was that these people were or were not a threat wouldn't have any effect on the resources that were already used...As for the job of intelligence/border patrol, they're meant to err on the side of caution. Can you imagine how bad it would look if these idiots got into trouble in the US after posting that message? I don't think you realize just how arbitrary many border control decisions are; as far as those go, this decision was pretty obvious.

Define trouble they'd cause, if they got drunk and misbehaved and were arrested, I don't think that would look bad at all, I doubt anyone would even care.

[Loki]

Define trouble they'd cause, if they got drunk and misbehaved and were arrested, I don't think that would look bad at all, I doubt anyone would even care.

I beg to differ. America isn't as tolerant of drunken stupidity as the Continent, particularly when it emanates from foreigners.

[Nessus]

There was an article in a tabloid not long ago about a couple of Finnish boys who got arrested for being drunk outdoors in the US, which high-lighted other laws in the particular state, one being outlawing oral sex. American Exceptionalism++

[Loki]

Meanwhile, several American pundits can't enter the UK because they said some derogatory things about Islam...

[Nessus]

Which is obviously a great tragedy, trampling on brown people should be a global privilege!

[earthJoker]

You can be a racist as long as you aren't a drunk racist.

class Amerika throws Exceptionalism