The Haditha killings

[Aimless]

Couldn't find any posts on this, thought the following article may be of interest to some of you:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/wo...yard.html?_r=2

As you may have heard, not a single one of the men initially charged were sentenced to jail as all of them had their charges dropped or lowered, the last one being Wuterich a week ago. I dunno 'bout guilt or innocence, I wasn't there, I saw nuffin the Haditha deaths aside, it can't be easy to live with the knowledge that you've killed children

[coinich]

At least in the case of the sergeant, I believe he arranged a plea bargain that limited the time the judge? under the UCMJ could legally give him.

[Aimless]

I wonder what things would be like if more of your states states, or the entire US, did away with this plea-bargaining business.

[coinich]

I wonder what things would be like if more of your states states, or the entire US, did away with this plea-bargaining business.

A longer and more tortuous legal system.

[Aimless]

A longer and more tortuous legal system.

One wonders then why the states that've done away with plea-bargains don't return to the way things were

[Loki]

Institutional resistance.

[Being]

Cost.

[Aimless]

I thought it was because things got better when the plea bargains disappeared

[CitizenCain]

As you may have heard, not a single one of the men initially charged were sentenced to jail as all of them had their charges dropped or lowered, the last one being Wuterich a week ago.

Aren't a bunch still looking at a few years in the military brig? And, FYI, time spent in a military prison is geometrically more difficult than time spent in civilian prison. (Personally, I'd serve a dime in a federal Penn rather than serve 2 or 3 in in the Army brig... not that I wouldn't try to shoot my way out of either option, but if they took me alive somehow and gave the option, I'd do the 10 in civy prison.)

the Haditha deaths aside, it can't be easy to live with the knowledge that you've killed children

You really think it's any harder than living with the knowledge that you were a professional killer who ended dozens or hundreds (or thousands) of other human beings? Combat soldiers, dude - even a dead kid's just another body. I doubt it makes any difference, with all the other lives they've taken.

[Aimless]

Aren't a bunch still looking at a few years in the military brig?

Not that I can see, but I suppose it's possible one or two of the eight haven't gotten away yet.

You really think it's any harder than living with the knowledge that you were a professional killer who ended dozens or hundreds (or thousands) of other human beings? Combat soldiers, dude - even a dead kid's just another body. I doubt it makes any difference, with all the other lives they've taken.

I dunno, how many of them have killed hundreds/thousands of people? I just know one of the commanding officers explained to reporters that he had to go around every now and then to console men who'd killed kiddies. But okay, they find kids easy to kill or something

[CitizenCain]

I dunno, how many of them have killed hundreds/thousands of people?

Marines are combat troops. Their job is combat. On a six-month combat deployment, that's a bit over 180 days of being paid go out an get yur kill on. (And six months is uncommonly short, as most "year long" combat-zone deployments are 8 or 9 months in a hot zone.) So, yeah, dozens/100+ kills for a combat soldier during a deployment is pretty normal. Most of them probably won't rise to the level of "confirmed kill" or be the type of up close and personal, real gritty kill that totally desensitizes you to the reality of being a professional life-taker, but you know you've killed dozens or hundreds of people all the same. (Thousands of kills is really high, but only because as an infantry soldier, you'll usually die before hitting that mark.)

Hell, maybe I'll get nice and toasted one of these days and post a pic of my ink to give you a nice visual representation. I've got a mark for each life I've taken [that I know about, anyway]. (Fucking import laws, sigh.)

I just know one of the commanding officers explained to reporters that he had to go around every now and then to console men who'd killed kiddies. But okay, they find kids easy to kill or something

Sure, just like after you make your first real gritty kill, get up close and personal and see what's left of some guy whose face you crushed, you'll probably need counseling. Second time's a lot easier. By the fourth time you don't even think twice about it. Not too much different from firefighters or medics or anyone else who has occasion to see badly mangled human remains on a semi-regular basis. You get numb to it pretty quick, and after that it's all "just another body."

And bear in mind that whoever killed those kiddies did so with intent. It was a rage-fueled murder rampage. Murdering someone in cold blood is a lot different than "oh shit, I accidentally put a round into some kid's head," so there's that too. Accidentally killing a kid is a lot different than intentionally killing one, as far as psychological effects go.

If the Haditha murders were the result of the massacre they seem to be (as they probably were), why do you think the murderers will suddenly have trouble living with the reality of doing what they intended to do? <shrug>

[Aimless]

If the Haditha murders were the result of the massacre they seem to be (as they probably were), why do you think the murderers will suddenly have trouble living with the reality of doing what they intended to do? <shrug>

I wasn't referring to those who were involved in the Haditha killings, which is why I said, "The Haditha deaths aside..."

[CitizenCain]

Oh, right. Well, in that case, ignore the last bit. I bet it's like your first kill or your first grisly kill or your first HtH kill, etc. Hits you like a bag of bricks at first, but before you know, you're doing it as a matter of course, and can't even remember/imagine why it was a big deal the first time.

So, nah, for most soldiers, it's probably only hard to live with while you're stuck in the initial shock of what you've done. That passes pretty quick.