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Thread: Financial Advice

  1. #1
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Default Financial Advice

    My father passed away last year and the settling of the estate is almost done.

    Right now, before the real estate is sold (which will be quite some time), I'm going to be receiving 40k as soon as all 4 of us sign off on the current disposition.

    My gut is to take at least 20k (maybe all 40 and refinance our current 4.5% 15 year (now 14) and go to 3.33% for 10 (or see if we do 5 year with all 40). We owe about 199K with current payments of 1841/month.

    Then still try to figure out what to do with the possible remaining 20k (possibly get it into a savings for potential college for The Boy).

    Critiques? Suggestions?
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  2. #2
    Just how much would you save by putting it all into the mortgage? On its face, this looks like by far the best option. Putting the money in a bank at this time makes about as much sense as putting it under the pillow. Stocks wouldn't be a bad idea, but you'd need to know what you're doing. Meanwhile, if you save a lot of money through the mortgage, you'll have more disposable cash coming in each month (especially after 10 years), a part of which you can save for the college fund.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    I'll be talking with our credit union on Tuesday to run some numbers...their last running of the numbers on the 10 year (with no money down) was about 2100 a month, so paying down 20% should impact that greatly. Which would have us paying off the house as he graduates high school (here's hoping on that part). That could impact us though as well, as we would be debt free, have a large asset, and then tuition assistance might laugh at us.
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  4. #4
    How comfortable are you with risk?

  5. #5
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Not very.
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  6. #6
    If you're not feeling risk tolerant, I'd say just go and throw it all at the mortgage. It's 4.5%/3.33%/whatever and pretty risk-free - assuming you have enough financial discipline to use any monthly savings wisely. Everything else I can think of right now either has lower rates or carries risk.

    If you have any debts with higher interest rates, those should be paid off first, though.

  7. #7
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Yeah, as of receipt of our fed tax return we will be debt free except for the house.

    Better Half has been very clear this is 'My Money' to do with what ever I want..., but I'm not the kinda guy to go out and buy a car (our car is already paid off) or some-such. And I look at this boon from my father as something to not be frittered away on a high risk venture but to lock down our needs.

    And yer right on the financial discipline. With all our debt gone except for the mortgage we will have an additional 700-800 a month not being paid out.

    After we secure a 6 month emergency cushion, and other suggestions? Just role over CD's over and over? Our credit union is offering 3%.
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  8. #8
    Veldan, my best "advice" would be not to rush into anything. Especially if it involves a house and mortgage refinancing, with all its variables.

    Are homes in your area holding value, or depreciating? Is this your 'final' home, or is there another move in your future? Is there a possibility your careers -- or getting into a different school district for your son -- might mean selling and re-locating?

    While it's appealing to pay down mortgage debt, remember it's still a chunky tax deduction (until tax codes are changed). It remains a rather risky time to park assets into housing, or have your house your most valuable asset, IMO.

    I also wouldn't rely on a bank or credit union for advice, since they work on re-fi commission, so to speak. Try finding a CFP (certified financial planner) that comes with good references and charges a *flat fee* for reviewing all your options. My guesstimation is they'd say the 40k might be better split into three or four areas, not just one or two. Life insurance, a college fund, your retirement plan, etc. These days, a 12 month 'cushion' is almost a necessity.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Yeah, as of receipt of our fed tax return we will be debt free except for the house.

    Better Half has been very clear this is 'My Money' to do with what ever I want..., but I'm not the kinda guy to go out and buy a car (our car is already paid off) or some-such. And I look at this boon from my father as something to not be frittered away on a high risk venture but to lock down our needs.

    And yer right on the financial discipline. With all our debt gone except for the mortgage we will have an additional 700-800 a month not being paid out.

    After we secure a 6 month emergency cushion, and other suggestions? Just role over CD's over and over? Our credit union is offering 3%.
    That's what I would suggest. Set up a CD ladder if it's beneficial to you. CDs are probably the best rate of return you can get right now without any real risk. Rates are kinda crap right now though, but they'll go up, so it's probably better not to tie up all your money right now in them - I think paying down your mortgage now and channeling the monthly savings from that into CDs is a good plan. Annuities might also be worth looking into, but they probably aren't appropriate for you right now, and are more something you'll get later down the line.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Veldan, my best "advice" would be not to rush into anything. Especially if it involves a house and mortgage refinancing, with all its variables.

    Are homes in your area holding value, or depreciating? Is this your 'final' home, or is there another move in your future? Is there a possibility your careers -- or getting into a different school district for your son -- might mean selling and re-locating?
    This isn't a decision to buy real estate or not, he already has it. This is paying down existing debt, something he'd have to do sooner or later regardless. Mortgage rates might go down further, but I wouldn't count on it, and trying to wait for an even better rate is a gamble. Rates are good now, so refinancing is a safe option.

    While it's appealing to pay down mortgage debt, remember it's still a chunky tax deduction (until tax codes are changed). It remains a rather risky time to park assets into housing, or have your house your most valuable asset, IMO.
    Since he's not risk tolerant, any income he could gain from the money is likely to be from interest, which is not taxed at the preferential rate of capital gains, so tax issues are a wash.

  11. #11
    I wonder if you could turn this sort of thing into a checklist-based algorithm so as to reasonably narrow down options
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  12. #12
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Credit Union is offering 2.75% on a 10 year now...So, I'm thinking 20 k there 10k in CD's and the rest into savings (to put into the 6 month reserve) till I can figure out what to do with.
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  13. #13
    10 years is an awfully long time to be stuck with a 2.75% rate, and compared to paying down your mortgage, that's probably a money loser. The only way you can win on that is if you expect to be in a lower tax bracket in 10 years. CD rates are low right now, but shop around - my own credit union is offering 3% on a 1 year CD as a special offer, you might be able to find similar.

    Tax bracket hopping aside, you should only go with CDs or anything else versus mortgage if you expect you can beat your mortgage rate with them. CDs won't beat your mortgage now, but probably will in the future. So you need to be in a position where you can actually take advantage of the rising interest rates if you want to go that route.

    If you're not completely risk-averse, you can look into bond funds, or large-cap mutual funds, or even just an index fund. Those will all probably provide you with a better ROI than 2.75%, and give you better liquidity than that CD you're looking at. Only catch is you'll be taking on some risk.
    Last edited by Wraith; 02-18-2012 at 02:49 PM.

  14. #14
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    The mortgage was 10 year at 2.75%

    Regular cd's are 3%

    sorry for the confusion
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  15. #15
    My bad, yeah if you can refinance down to 2.75 your plan sounds good. At 2.75%, I'd just suggest putting in the bare minimum necessary to get that rate.

  16. #16
    A few thoughts . . . .

    Borrowing is very very cheap - if I were you I'd take a 30 year mortgage on that 199k and forget about it for the next 30 years. There's never been better mortgage rates, take advantage of it. For the 40k, I would put it in the stock market. If you're not comfortable with investing, hire a certified financial planner - one that gets paid via fee only. A good planner will sit with you to assess your risk tolerance and your long term goals and give you investment advice accordingly.

    Edit: BTW - a decade ago I did the pay down the mortgage thing - 15 year mortgage, higher payments but less interest and quicker pay down. Well, I ended up selling the house for much less than I bought it for. On the up side I still had equity in it, so at least I didn't have to pay to get rid of it. But still . . . . the rules changed around the house-as-safe investment rule. So with mortgage rates so cheap, I'm not even a little interested in paying down the current mortgage faster.
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  17. #17
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Why would I take a step backwards into a 30 year loan???
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  18. #18
    I agree with the gist of what (I think) EyeKhan is saying. I think debt reduction could be good. But borrowing is also quite cheap (I'm refinancing my 30 year at 3.75 just this month). But I don't think putting the money into CDs is a good idea. I'm not sure what bank promised you a 3% CD rate, but I'm candidly a bit skeptical there.

    If you don't want to put all the money into reducing your debt, there are conservative stock choices that would be better places for that money. Even putting a chunk of that into a cheap Vanguard dividend fund will likely bring you more value over time if you just plop it there and forget about it.

    Warren Buffet wrote something interesting about this just this week.It's a bit long, but I actually think it does add something to your particular question about what to do with cash.


    Warren Buffett: Why stocks beat gold and bonds

    February 9, 2012: 5:00 AM ET

    In an adaptation from his upcoming shareholder letter, the Oracle of Omaha explains why equities almost always beat the alternatives over time.

    By Warren Buffett

    FORTUNE -- Investing is often described as the process of laying out money now in the expectation of receiving more money in the future. At Berkshire Hathaway (BRKA) we take a more demanding approach, defining investing as the transfer to others of purchasing power now with the reasoned expectation of receiving more purchasing power -- after taxes have been paid on nominal gains -- in the future. More succinctly, investing is forgoing consumption now in order to have the ability to consume more at a later date.

    From our definition there flows an important corollary: The riskiness of an investment is not measured by beta (a Wall Street term encompassing volatility and often used in measuring risk) but rather by the probability -- the reasoned probability -- of that investment causing its owner a loss of purchasing power over his contemplated holding period. Assets can fluctuate greatly in price and not be risky as long as they are reasonably certain to deliver increased purchasing power over their holding period. And as we will see, a nonfluctuating asset can be laden with risk.

    Investment possibilities are both many and varied. There are three major categories, however, and it's important to understand the characteristics of each. So let's survey the field.

    Investments that are denominated in a given currency include money-market funds, bonds, mortgages, bank deposits, and other instruments. Most of these currency-based investments are thought of as "safe." In truth they are among the most dangerous of assets. Their beta may be zero, but their risk is huge.

    Over the past century these instruments have destroyed the purchasing power of investors in many countries, even as these holders continued to receive timely payments of interest and principal. This ugly result, moreover, will forever recur. Governments determine the ultimate value of money, and systemic forces will sometimes cause them to gravitate to policies that produce inflation. From time to time such policies spin out of control.

    Even in the U.S., where the wish for a stable currency is strong, the dollar has fallen a staggering 86% in value since 1965, when I took over management of Berkshire. It takes no less than $7 today to buy what $1 did at that time. Consequently, a tax-free institution would have needed 4.3% interest annually from bond investments over that period to simply maintain its purchasing power. Its managers would have been kidding themselves if they thought of any portion of that interest as "income."

    For taxpaying investors like you and me, the picture has been far worse. During the same 47-year period, continuous rolling of U.S. Treasury bills produced 5.7% annually. That sounds satisfactory. But if an individual investor paid personal income taxes at a rate averaging 25%, this 5.7% return would have yielded nothing in the way of real income. This investor's visible income tax would have stripped him of 1.4 points of the stated yield, and the invisible inflation tax would have devoured the remaining 4.3 points. It's noteworthy that the implicit inflation "tax" was more than triple the explicit income tax that our investor probably thought of as his main burden. "In God We Trust" may be imprinted on our currency, but the hand that activates our government's printing press has been all too human.

    High interest rates, of course, can compensate purchasers for the inflation risk they face with currency-based investments -- and indeed, rates in the early 1980s did that job nicely. Current rates, however, do not come close to offsetting the purchasing-power risk that investors assume. Right now bonds should come with a warning label.

    nder today's conditions, therefore, I do not like currency-based investments. Even so, Berkshire holds significant amounts of them, primarily of the short-term variety. At Berkshire the need for ample liquidity occupies center stage and will never be slighted, however inadequate rates may be. Accommodating this need, we primarily hold U.S. Treasury bills, the only investment that can be counted on for liquidity under the most chaotic of economic conditions. Our working level for liquidity is $20 billion; $10 billion is our absolute minimum.

    Beyond the requirements that liquidity and regulators impose on us, we will purchase currency-related securities only if they offer the possibility of unusual gain -- either because a particular credit is mispriced, as can occur in periodic junk-bond debacles, or because rates rise to a level that offers the possibility of realizing substantial capital gains on high-grade bonds when rates fall. Though we've exploited both opportunities in the past -- and may do so again -- we are now 180 degrees removed from such prospects. Today, a wry comment that Wall Streeter Shelby Cullom Davis made long ago seems apt: "Bonds promoted as offering risk-free returns are now priced to deliver return-free risk."

    The second major category of investments involves assets that will never produce anything, but that are purchased in the buyer's hope that someone else -- who also knows that the assets will be forever unproductive -- will pay more for them in the future. Tulips, of all things, briefly became a favorite of such buyers in the 17th century.

    This type of investment requires an expanding pool of buyers, who, in turn, are enticed because they believe the buying pool will expand still further. Owners are not inspired by what the asset itself can produce -- it will remain lifeless forever -- but rather by the belief that others will desire it even more avidly in the future.

    The major asset in this category is gold, currently a huge favorite of investors who fear almost all other assets, especially paper money (of whose value, as noted, they are right to be fearful). Gold, however, has two significant shortcomings, being neither of much use nor procreative. True, gold has some industrial and decorative utility, but the demand for these purposes is both limited and incapable of soaking up new production. Meanwhile, if you own one ounce of gold for an eternity, you will still own one ounce at its end.

    What motivates most gold purchasers is their belief that the ranks of the fearful will grow. During the past decade that belief has proved correct. Beyond that, the rising price has on its own generated additional buying enthusiasm, attracting purchasers who see the rise as validating an investment thesis. As "bandwagon" investors join any party, they create their own truth -- for a while.

    Over the past 15 years, both Internet stocks and houses have demonstrated the extraordinary excesses that can be created by combining an initially sensible thesis with well-publicized rising prices. In these bubbles, an army of originally skeptical investors succumbed to the "proof " delivered by the market, and the pool of buyers -- for a time -- expanded sufficiently to keep the bandwagon rolling. But bubbles blown large enough inevitably pop. And then the old proverb is confirmed once again: "What the wise man does in the beginning, the fool does in the end."

    Today the world's gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At $1,750 per ounce -- gold's price as I write this -- its value would be about $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A.

    Let's now create a pile B costing an equal amount. For that, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400 million acres with output of about $200 billion annually), plus 16 Exxon Mobils (the world's most profitable company, one earning more than $40 billion annually). After these purchases, we would have about $1 trillion left over for walking-around money (no sense feeling strapped after this buying binge). Can you imagine an investor with $9.6 trillion selecting pile A over pile B?

    Beyond the staggering valuation given the existing stock of gold, current prices make today's annual production of gold command about $160 billion. Buyers -- whether jewelry and industrial users, frightened individuals, or speculators -- must continually absorb this additional supply to merely maintain an equilibrium at present prices.

    A century from now the 400 million acres of farmland will have produced staggering amounts of corn, wheat, cotton, and other crops -- and will continue to produce that valuable bounty, whatever the currency may be. Exxon Mobil (XOM) will probably have delivered trillions of dollars in dividends to its owners and will also hold assets worth many more trillions (and, remember, you get 16 Exxons). The 170,000 tons of gold will be unchanged in size and still incapable of producing anything. You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond.

    Admittedly, when people a century from now are fearful, it's likely many will still rush to gold. I'm confident, however, that the $9.6 trillion current valuation of pile A will compound over the century at a rate far inferior to that achieved by pile B.

    Our first two categories enjoy maximum popularity at peaks of fear: Terror over economic collapse drives individuals to currency-based assets, most particularly U.S. obligations, and fear of currency collapse fosters movement to sterile assets such as gold. We heard "cash is king" in late 2008, just when cash should have been deployed rather than held. Similarly, we heard "cash is trash" in the early 1980s just when fixed-dollar investments were at their most attractive level in memory. On those occasions, investors who required a supportive crowd paid dearly for that comfort.

    My own preference -- and you knew this was coming -- is our third category: investment in productive assets, whether businesses, farms, or real estate. Ideally, these assets should have the ability in inflationary times to deliver output that will retain its purchasing-power value while requiring a minimum of new capital investment. Farms, real estate, and many businesses such as Coca-Cola (KO), IBM (IBM), and our own See's Candy meet that double-barreled test. Certain other companies -- think of our regulated utilities, for example -- fail it because inflation places heavy capital requirements on them. To earn more, their owners must invest more. Even so, these investments will remain superior to nonproductive or currency-based assets.

    Whether the currency a century from now is based on gold, seashells, shark teeth, or a piece of paper (as today), people will be willing to exchange a couple of minutes of their daily labor for a Coca-Cola or some See's peanut brittle. In the future the U.S. population will move more goods, consume more food, and require more living space than it does now. People will forever exchange what they produce for what others produce.

    Our country's businesses will continue to efficiently deliver goods and services wanted by our citizens. Metaphorically, these commercial "cows" will live for centuries and give ever greater quantities of "milk" to boot. Their value will be determined not by the medium of exchange but rather by their capacity to deliver milk. Proceeds from the sale of the milk will compound for the owners of the cows, just as they did during the 20th century when the Dow increased from 66 to 11,497 (and paid loads of dividends as well).

    Berkshire's goal will be to increase its ownership of first-class businesses. Our first choice will be to own them in their entirety -- but we will also be owners by way of holding sizable amounts of marketable stocks. I believe that over any extended period of time this category of investing will prove to be the runaway winner among the three we've examined. More important, it will be by far the safest.

    http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/...holder-letter/

  19. #19
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    I'm 40, I am NOT going from a 15 to a 30 again. The idea is to be debt free before I retire.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Why would I take a step backwards into a 30 year loan???
    Because it's not a step backwards. Go to the thirty year loan to drop your payment and improve your cash flow. Take the extra monthly cash you would have put toward your mortgage and invest in in whatever plan your financial planner advises. Maybe its a roth IRA, maybe it's maxing out a 401k, maybe it's an after tax investment account - in any of those that money will grow much more in the market than the 4.25% you pay on your mortgage will hit you, even if you invest fairly conservatively.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I'm 40, I am NOT going from a 15 to a 30 again. The idea is to be debt free before I retire.
    Be debt free by selling your house, or paying the remaining principle off lump sum with the result of 20 years investing the difference in mortgage payments in the stock market. Most important of all, do a search for a Fee Only CFP and get a consultation. Don't listen to us whatever you do!
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  22. #22
    It doesn't sound like he wants to take on risk. Given that, his plan is about the right thing for him.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Credit Union is offering 2.75% on a 10 year now...So, I'm thinking 20 k there 10k in CD's and the rest into savings (to put into the 6 month reserve) till I can figure out what to do with.
    Unless you're currently short on cash, there's absolutely no reason to put any money into CDs (on which I doubt you'll get 3%) or into savings. Given that you're risk averse, there will not be any less risky opportunities in 6 months or 12 months. The interest rate is going to stay very low for at least a year or two. Even then, you'd probably save money by using the entire $40k on the mortgage. By putting all the money in the mortgage, you're increasing your monthly savings. If interest rates happen to go up at some point, you can put those extra savings on a CD account.

    Edit: http://cdrates.bankaholic.com/ The highest CDs in the country are about 1.2% a year. Not sure how any bank is going to offer you 2.5 times that.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #24
    Apparently both mine and his does offer that amount, so...

    Veldan, I assume you have to pay points for that mortgage rate, right? How much is it going to cost you to get it, including all the fees?

  25. #25
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Apr is 3% after all fees (a little less than 2 k) so still over a point less than we are paying now.
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  26. #26
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Credit Union is offering 2.75% on a 10 year now...So, I'm thinking 20 k there 10k in CD's and the rest into savings (to put into the 6 month reserve) till I can figure out what to do with.
    Yeah, not bad, though the 10k in CDs is probably wasted money, since, as pointed out, you're really only going to be treading water under optimal conditions right now.

    If it were me, with your assets, liabilities, and risk aversion, I'd throw 20 into the mortgage to reduce my debt, put 10 into a "safe" "investment," like CDs or gold (yeah, gold bubble at the moment, but we've got a ways to go before that pops, and with the way the current socialists in government are fucking up the economy, maybe a very long ways indeed before gold starts declining in value), and maybe buy myself something "nice" worth about 10 grand.

    And, FWIW, I came into a smaller windfall and did basically that. Half went to debt reduction, a quarter's sitting in gold, and I got myself a couple expensive "toys," because life is short, and I'm gonna enjoy it. (I can justify one of the toys by geeking out on it and trying to break 100 MPG fuel efficiency, but it's really just something fun for me that does 0-60 in under 5 seconds and 60-100 in about the same. )
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    It doesn't sound like he wants to take on risk. Given that, his plan is about the right thing for him.
    what the fuck - I've replied to this three times and three times explorer has crashed first. GRRRR.

    EDIT- but post some bull shit and hey, lets get that through.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  28. #28
    If it just locks up, it's an IE bug, but you can just let it run for a bit and your post will eventually go through. Don't know what your post was going to be about, but if not for the fact that he doesn't want risk, I would probably agree with your earlier statements. I could pay down my mortgage pretty far, but I put all that money into various investments instead.

  29. #29
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I could pay down my mortgage pretty far, but I put all that money into various investments instead.
    How's that going for you, by the by? I'm curious because I can't seem to find anything that beats inflation after fucking taxes and adjusting for risk in the current market.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    How's that going for you, by the by? I'm curious because I can't seem to find anything that beats inflation after fucking taxes and adjusting for risk in the current market.
    In the stock market, I ended last year down about a percent, but this year almost everything I have has been shooting up. So, going pretty well, I think.

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