Modern day slavery in the West

[coinich]

That's empty rhetoric, no better than the one about ending our dependence on foreign energy. There is no "fix". As long as Mexico is a craphole and we have a free market system, we will get millions of illegal Mexican immigrants. Now I suppose you can make all of them legal, but then you'll get tens of millions of Mexican immigrants. There are only two ways you can solve this problem: make it prohibitively costly for Mexican migrants to enter this country or sharply minimize the benefit of them being here. No one is going to take either step, so pretending that a quick fix is around the corner isn't particular honest.

Perhaps I'm naive, but whats the problem with making them legal? If we can get them better integrated with the system, won't taxes and other such things get paid, offsetting social services costs?

[Loki]

Perhaps I'm naive, but whats the problem with making them legal? If we can get them better integrated with the system, won't taxes and other such things get paid, offsetting social services costs?

The fact that 50% of all Mexicans (that's 57 million people) made clear their intention to immigrate to the US if given the choice? And that doesn't include the tens of millions from other third world countries that would use the opportunity to enter the US. I guess it's not a problem if you don't mind an influx of over a hundred million people (perhaps several times that) in a few years though.

Or do you mean legalizing the ones already in the US while pretending that any new entrants won't be given the same treatment? Because that kind of argument isn't particularly credible.

[coinich]

The fact that 50% of all Mexicans (that's 57 million people) made clear their intention to immigrate to the US if given the choice? And that doesn't include the tens of millions from other third world countries that would use the opportunity to enter the US. I guess it's not a problem if you don't mind an influx of over a hundred million people (perhaps several times that) in a few years though.

Or do you mean legalizing the ones already in the US while pretending that any new entrants won't be given the same treatment? Because that kind of argument isn't particularly credible.

I mentally lean towards the second; tightening the border then likely granting some form amnesty, ie delayed citizenship.

[Loki]

I mentally lean towards the second; tightening the border then likely granting some form amnesty, ie delayed citizenship.

And how would this prevent the next batch of illegal immigrants? If the reason the current group is here is because the employers can pay them below minimum wage and require them to do tasks that any person with options wouldn't do, then surely you realize that by legalizing them all, you're moving them out of the agricultural labor pool and implicitly inviting another 10 million migrants?

"Tightening the border" doesn't work. Period. No US government would tighten enough to deter a sufficient amount of would-be migrants.

[coinich]

And how would this prevent the next batch of illegal immigrants? If the reason the current group is here is because the employers can pay them below minimum wage and require them to do tasks that any person with options wouldn't do, then surely you realize that by legalizing them all, you're moving them out of the agricultural labor pool and implicitly inviting another 10 million migrants?

"Tightening the border" doesn't work. Period. No US government would tighten enough to deter a sufficient amount of would-be migrants.

The entire aspect did focus on tightening the border, but I do recognize that Mexico itself needs to be stabilized.

[Dreadnaught]

That's empty rhetoric, no better than the one about ending our dependence on foreign energy. There is no "fix". As long as Mexico is a craphole and we have a free market system, we will get millions of illegal Mexican immigrants. Now I suppose you can make all of them legal, but then you'll get tens of millions of Mexican immigrants. There are only two ways you can solve this problem: make it prohibitively costly for Mexican migrants to enter this country or sharply minimize the benefit of them being here. No one is going to take either step, so pretending that a quick fix is around the corner isn't particular honest.

I don't think it's impossible to both control our border and create an improved paperwork/immigration framework.

I'm not saying we should let every Mexican into the country so they can finalize the reconquista many leftists fantasize about. I'm saying it's far from impossible to control our border and legally let-in seasonal/low-skill workers to work on these farms who also have legal protections against predators.

[Loki]

The entire aspect did focus on tightening the border, but I do recognize that Mexico itself needs to be stabilized.

We've been tightening the border for half a century (at least). It's worked out great so far, hasn't it?

I don't think it's impossible to both control our border and create an improved paperwork/immigration framework.

I'm not saying we should let every Mexican into the country so they can finalize the reconquista many leftists fantasize about. I'm saying it's far from impossible to control our border and legally let-in seasonal/low-skill workers to work on these farms who also have legal protections against predators.

And yet despite all the "control the border" rhetoric, no economically and ethically viable plan has ever been seriously considered. Sorry, but if there was a way to "control the border", it would have been done by now. The reality is that even if you double or triple the expected cost of crossing the border, people will still come. The disparity in living conditions and security is just too high.

[Aimless]

Would greater security in Mexico improve matters?

[Loki]

A) Mexico is a sovereign state and there's only so much we can do to help it directly (this isn't helped by suspicion arising from a century of "Yanqui imperialism").
B) Even if we had free reign over Mexico's security policy, we'd do no better than what Mexico is doing now. There's too much poverty and too much money to be made by smuggling illegal materials into the US. The only solution for Mexico's security is from strong and consistent economic growth, which can only be achieved from within. And as nice as it is to talk about development, it would take Mexico many decades to catch up to the US, even if it had a good economy.

[Being]

If we annex Mexico we'd not only solve the immigration issue, we'd also be well on our way to energy independence. Let's invite them to be the 51st state.

[Aimless]

I was just obliquely trying to get at the thing about profitable smuggling to the US

[LittleFuzzy]

They're less of a problem, as they can be machine-picked, right? Most of those come from California, a much better place altogether

Oh, that sort of criminal enterprise has happened here too. This is one of the unfortunate side-effects of lots of illegal immigration.

[CitizenCain]

That's empty rhetoric, no better than the one about ending our dependence on foreign energy. There is no "fix".

There are certainly ways to make it better, though.

Like not forcing our War on [some] Drugs onto the Mexican people, which we all know is responsible for most of the violence and instability "down South America way." Removing the biggest single cause of economic instability and violence from our Southern neighbor's shoulders would be a huge step in the right direction for Mexico, and would do our country great favors as well.

'Course, that's not gonna happen, because our elected tyrants are traitors who sacrifice their country's best interests for personal gain (which would be one of the definitions of treason, even). String 'em all up from the gallows and improve life for billions of people, says I.

Well, it's still nice to have dreams and fantasies.

Oh, that sort of criminal enterprise has happened here too. This is one of the unfortunate side-effects of lots of illegal immigration.

Funny how that works, huh? You know, how when the state forgets about or ignores its duty to those under its charge, they end up horribly abused by evil men.

[Loki]

There are certainly ways to make it better, though.

Like not forcing our War on [some] Drugs onto the Mexican people, which we all know is responsible for most of the violence and instability "down South America way." Removing the biggest single cause of economic instability and violence from our Southern neighbor's shoulders would be a huge step in the right direction for Mexico, and would do our country great favors as well.

'Course, that's not gonna happen, because our elected tyrants are traitors who sacrifice their country's best interests for personal gain (which would be one of the definitions of treason, even). String 'em all up from the gallows and improve life for billions of people, says I.

Well, it's still nice to have dreams and fantasies.

Sure, legalizing drugs might eventually reduce demand for some smuggled goods into the country, though any attempt to regulate the cost or availability of said drugs would undermine this objective. More importantly, there will always be things to smuggle into this country. If not drugs, it will be humans...And there's always money to made from smuggling cigarettes and to a lesser extent alcohol (to avoid taxes).

[CitizenCain]

Sure, legalizing drugs might eventually reduce demand for some smuggled goods into the country, though any attempt to regulate the cost or availability of said drugs would undermine this objective. More importantly, there will always be things to smuggle into this country.

Sounds like some of the arguments for why ending prohibition wouldn't work. To some extent, the genie's already out of the bottle, but on the other hand, maybe ending the drug war allows proper businessmen to step into that market and enforce contracts in that market in a court of law, rather than at gunpoint.

If not drugs, it will be humans...And there's always money to made from smuggling cigarettes and to a lesser extent alcohol (to avoid taxes).

Hey, it's almost like you know my position on "sin taxes" already.

[Loki]

The point is that changing in one policy in isolation to the others will just lead to a substitution effect, and we all know what are the odds of all of those policies being changed.