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Thread: Corporate affirmative action for women?

  1. #1

    Default Corporate affirmative action for women?

    I've been following this story with interest for a while, and I'm curious what you guys think. Basically, there's a movement in Europe to legally require that X percentage of high ranking people in a company (normally board members) be women. Surprisingly to me, it seems to have quite a bit of popular support, though obviously businesses are less keen. Frankly, I'm utterly baffled by this move - IMO, corporate board positions should be decided on the basis of merit and nothing else. Getting to that kind of position takes a lot of effort and a long, complex career - how can we just arbitrarily decide that 40% of them must be women?

    More generally, I have concerns about how it even makes sense. Women have long been underrepresented in high ranking corporate positions, and I don't doubt that some of this is due to a glass ceiling. Yet a lot of it is more complex - even in countries where women do form nearly half of the workforce (much of Europe does fit this category), their workforce participation is skewed towards a lot of service professions (healthcare, education, etc.) and less to corporate positions. Furthermore, fewer women may get the requisite management degrees (and the necessary career ambition) to move up the corporate ladder. Lastly, and IMO most importantly, women's careers are often slowed down quite a bit by competing priorities - raising a family being the most obvious one. This isn't helped by these same European countries encouraging women to take long paid maternity leaves, which may atrophy their skills and damage their career prospects.

    None of the above factors has anything to do with discrimination, but they would all lead to lower percentages of women in high ranking corporate positions. Why force companies to recruit less talented people for their board positions in the name of some silly sense of 'equality'? Most large companies in the Western world today have diversity programs or whatever to actively recruit the underrepresented, including women. Why tamper with their career advancement process? I know that the workplace was a very different place even a few decades ago, and women continue to face workplace challenges different from their male counterparts. Yet by and large Western society has raised in the current generation of new workers a fairly egalitarian approach towards gender issues. Letting this culture percolate through the corporate heirarchy is probably far more effective towards the elimination of discrimination than any quota system.

    What do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Economist
    Waving a big stick

    “I DON’T like quotas, but I like what quotas do,” says Viviane Reding, the European Union’s justice commissioner. A year ago she invited publicly listed firms to sign a pledge to increase the proportion of women on their boards to 30% by 2015 and 40% by 2020. If there was no significant progress within a year, she said at the time, “you can count on my regulatory creativity.” So far only 24 firms have signed.

    So on March 5th Ms Reding (pictured) announced the launch of a three-month public consultation to ask what kind of measures the EU should take to get more women into boardrooms. The commission will then decide on further action later this year. There is no mention of quotas yet, but the consultation document seems to be paving the road to them. Among other things, it asks: “Which objectives (eg, 20%, 30%, 40%, 60%) should be defined for the share of the underrepresented sex?”

    Only 13.7% of board members of large firms in the EU are women, up from 8.5% in 2003. Female presidents and chairwomen are even rarer: just 3.2% of the total now, compared with 1.6% in 2003. Women account for 60% of new graduates in the EU, and enter many occupations in roughly equal numbers with men. But with every step up the ladder more of them drop out, and near the top they almost disappear.

    Plenty of research suggests that companies with lots of women in senior positions are more successful than those without (even if there is no proof of a causal relationship). So it seems to make sense to get more women on boards. But how?

    Norway, which is not a member of the EU, introduced a quota for women on boards a decade ago, which catapulted their share from 9% in 2003 to the required 40% now. Several EU countries have recently followed suit. France brought in legislation just over a year ago under which listed and large unlisted companies must reserve at least 20% of board seats for members of each sex by 2014 and 40% by 2017. This has boosted the number of women on French boards from 12% to 22%. Italy and Belgium have mandated a minimum one-third representation. Spain and the Netherlands have introduced new laws, but without stiff penalties. Germany is debating quotas. Some European countries regulate the sex balance on the boards of state-owned companies. Rules vary, but opinion seems to be converging on a near-term target of 25-30% and a longer-term one of 40%.

    Europe’s population at large seems to be all for it. A special Eurobarometer poll commissioned by Ms Reding’s directorate-general, published this week, found that three-quarters were in favour of laws to ensure sex balance on boards. More than four respondents out of ten thought that a 50% share for women would be realistic.

    Business generally opposes quotas, fearing that they will encourage tokenism and make it harder to appoint the best people. Critics of the Norwegian scheme suggest that it has put less experienced women on boards who may not be up to the job, and that some of the more obviously suitable ones tend to hold numerous directorships, defeating the aim of widening the circle of top women. In Britain an official report about women on boards, published a year ago, came out against quotas and in favour of voluntary commitments by companies. A growing number of companies in the EU are setting their own targets.

    If Ms Reding were to decide later this year that stronger medicine is needed, what might she do? Fraser Younson of Berwin Leighton Paisner, an international law firm, thinks that she might start by asking individual member countries to commit themselves to robust voluntary targets over a set period, say two or three years. If those fail to produce results, she might then introduce a binding directive. That would require the agreement of the Council of Ministers and the support of the European Parliament. But her hope may well be that the threat of quotas would make voluntary targets seem less onerous.

    Some experts think that the whole debate about the composition of boards is something of a distraction from the main problem: that so few women reach the upper echelons of management from which board members are typically drawn. McKinsey, a consultancy which has been making the business case for more women in senior management jobs for some years, has just come out with a new study of 235 large European companies which shows that most of them take the issue seriously.

    Some 90% have at least one diversity programme in place; often lots of them. Yet many of these programmes are poorly implemented. Even if the boss is enthusiastic, senior and especially middle managers are often less keen. To get the pipeline of female internal talent to fill up, what is needed is a change in mindsets at every level in the workforce. That could take time. But McKinsey’s Emily Lawson says she feels a “sense of inevitability” that women in senior management are coming into their own. And once a larger number of “boardable” women starts to fill the pipeline, a 30% or 40% share of board seats may no longer look fanciful.
    http://www.economist.com/node/21549953
    Last edited by wiggin; 03-12-2012 at 07:16 AM.

  2. #2
    The only part of that that surprises me is that you're surprised these measures would have popular support in pink Europe. This is entirely consistent with the European emphasis of equality to the detriment of efficiency, merit, and I would argue fairness. This is also the same top down approach eurocrats are known for; after all, why bother thinking about the complex roots of a problem and the possible side-effects of an imposed solution when you can just will change? This isn't a very difficult mentality to possess when you face no electoral punishment for poor decisions or career consequences for ineptness.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    I'm not surprised that EU politicians can come up with this claptrap, but I am surprised about seeming popular support. Why would anyone think this is a good idea outside of some diversity policy shop? Obviously a lot of people do, so I figure I'm missing something.

    I've long understood and sympathised with (though not always agreed with) affirmative action for African-Americans in the US. The legacy of slavery and the subsequent century of crushing poverty and vicious discrimination is not something we can easily rectify, so giving worthy (though not perhaps the most qualified) candidates a leg up is not unreasonable. I get it, though I don't always think it's the best solution. But I just don't see some systematic discrimination against women in the corporate world. It took a few decades from the entry of women en masse to the work force to iron out the cultural difficulties, but people very quickly realized that women could be creative, productive workers just as much as men, and attitudes changed. I just don't see how a quota would be a good idea.

  4. #4
    The socialist mindframe privileges outcomes to processes. It's the mindframe that's holding up NHS reform in the UK, and wants to ban private schools. These people, which is to say pretty much the entire mainstream left in Europe, think justice, defined as equality, trumps all. They don't care why we might see uneven outcomes; what matters is that the outcomes are uneven and should be fixed by mandating equality from the top. Spend a year in Europe and you'll see just how prevalent this type of thinking is (both in terms of the number of people who hold it, and the number of political positions to which it extends).

    Hell, even the parts of the mainstream right in Europe pander to this line of reasoning: http://news.yahoo.com/french-sarkozy...141252760.html. If foreign products are cheaper to make than local ones, ban them. If immigrants are willing to work for less than natives, ban them. If competition leads to short-term unemployment, ban it.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    First of all, I gotta say I completely support this policy.

    Because with the course America's plotted on, we're not going to stay on top for long, unless everyone else in the world starts handicapping themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I'm not surprised that EU politicians can come up with this claptrap, but I am surprised about seeming popular support. Why would anyone think this is a good idea outside of some diversity policy shop?
    This is the continent that thinks socialism is a good idea, too. I'm sure the two are not unrelated.

    Not that we need to look to other continents to see examples of massive stupid ideas with heavy popular support, either. People are morons. Hence, there is popular support for moronic ideas.

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Spend a year in Europe and you'll see just how prevalent this type of thinking is
    Well, sure, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Getting shut in the belly will give you keen insight into how painful it is to be gutshot, but there are much better ways to acquire that information without doing something as self-destructive as spending a year Europe.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The socialist mindframe privileges outcomes to processes. It's the mindframe that's holding up NHS reform in the UK, and wants to ban private schools. These people, which is to say pretty much the entire mainstream left in Europe, think justice, defined as equality, trumps all. They don't care why we might see uneven outcomes; what matters is that the outcomes are uneven and should be fixed by mandating equality from the top. Spend a year in Europe and you'll see just how prevalent this type of thinking is (both in terms of the number of people who hold it, and the number of political positions to which it extends).
    As right-minded as this paragraph is (not being sarcastic), you would be called a Nazi here. It really is quite...special.

    Andrew, I think Loki has come to some semblance of the truth here; there's some sense of entitlement that comes with egalite, fraternite and liberte, and the multi-party parliamentary system is prone to certain kinds of cronyism whose required checks and balances have gone missing, at least in Finland, for some decades. And the younger generations are simply apathetic to a fault.

    I might have better and more coherent thoughts later Minx might like this thread!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
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  7. #7
    I don't disagree. European leftists have a tendency to call anyone to the right of them racists and Nazis.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    My first concern is actually how this will even lead to the desired outcome. Corporate boards are primarily geared towards oversight, evaluating the top management and reviewing/approving/vetoing strategy set by top management.

    For ordinary corporate workers, they are, at best, a semi-visible hand hovering above the normal din of work. Changing the ethnic/gender makeup of a board is meaningless unless those board members somehow impose a quota system on the entire company.

    But -- given that I'm going to be spending some time with radical hipsters and welfare recipients in Germany and inevitably going to get into political discussions with people who scream "fascist" all the time -- my secondary reaction is that these fights sometimes start to become their own kind of totalitarianism. If you consider totalitarianism to be the politicization of everything, doesn't meddling at this level fit the bill?

  9. #9
    Actually, the Economist had a special report back in December or so about women in the workplace, and argued that it was far more important for the number of female middle managers and middling-high managers to increase rather than the absolute top level - that was where the career opportunities and experience developed for the issue of women on boards to solve itself. But I don't think those positions should have a quota system, either.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I've been following this story with interest for a while, and I'm curious what you guys think. Basically, there's a movement in Europe to legally require that X percentage of high ranking people in a company (normally board members) be women. Surprisingly to me, it seems to have quite a bit of popular support, though obviously businesses are less keen. Frankly, I'm utterly baffled by this move - IMO, corporate board positions should be decided on the basis of merit and nothing else. Getting to that kind of position takes a lot of effort and a long, complex career - how can we just arbitrarily decide that 40% of them must be women?

    More generally, I have concerns about how it even makes sense. Women have long been underrepresented in high ranking corporate positions, and I don't doubt that some of this is due to a glass ceiling. Yet a lot of it is more complex - even in countries where women do form nearly half of the workforce (much of Europe does fit this category), their workforce participation is skewed towards a lot of service professions (healthcare, education, etc.) and less to corporate positions. Furthermore, fewer women may get the requisite management degrees (and the necessary career ambition) to move up the corporate ladder. Lastly, and IMO most importantly, women's careers are often slowed down quite a bit by competing priorities - raising a family being the most obvious one. This isn't helped by these same European countries encouraging women to take long paid maternity leaves, which may atrophy their skills and damage their career prospects.

    None of the above factors has anything to do with discrimination, but they would all lead to lower percentages of women in high ranking corporate positions. Why force companies to recruit less talented people for their board positions in the name of some silly sense of 'equality'? Most large companies in the Western world today have diversity programs or whatever to actively recruit the underrepresented, including women. Why tamper with their career advancement process? I know that the workplace was a very different place even a few decades ago, and women continue to face workplace challenges different from their male counterparts. Yet by and large Western society has raised in the current generation of new workers a fairly egalitarian approach towards gender issues. Letting this culture percolate through the corporate heirarchy is probably far more effective towards the elimination of discrimination than any quota system.

    What do you think?
    I'd agree with you it's probably nothing to do with "discrimination". Maybe its wanting positions of power to reflect Euro gender demographics, which they also want in education, government, and legislators(?) Women are largely half of university students/grads and the general workforce, diversity recruitment is desirable and common, and women move up in tandem with men until they hit a plateau and start to lose traction....what's not so clear is why.

    European nations also have great Child Care/Cay Care/Elder Care (both public and private), generous maternity/paternity and family leave policies, subsidized continuing education and professional degree advancement, and laws for equal pay and anti-discrimination hiring. That doesn't sound like an environment where women (or men) are having to choose between career or family, or could be rejected for pregnancies or family issues. Women in healthcare and education can also strive for 'moving up the ladder' into management and leadership positions, or branching out into other sectors, so I wouldn't say 'service professions' can't mirror 'corporate professions'.

    I'd say that Europeans are generally more in-tuned to cultural and social issues (those SSSocialists! ) than Americans...and would tend to intervene in the "percolation process" that's been taking several generations now.

    I know that the workplace was a very different place even a few decades ago, and women continue to face workplace challenges different from their male counterparts. Yet by and large Western society has raised in the current generation of new workers a fairly egalitarian approach towards gender issues. Letting this culture percolate through the corporate heirarchy is probably far more effective towards the elimination of discrimination than any quota system.

    Not discrimination. Well, if they're talking about Boards of Directors, those positions still tend to be dominated by the grandfathers of that current generation of new workers. And they don't die off or retire at age 63 anymore, but can hang around well into their 80's. People in powerful positions are known to like, and sometimes use their position, to keep their power. That's nothing new at all. They're asking them to voluntarily invite women into the boardroom, using a threat of mandates and quotas to speed up the "percolation". My impression is that Europeans are more acceptable of that kind of tinkering.



    More broadly, even though there's no consensus of why women hit a plateau or glass ceiling in POP, my personal opinion is that women aren't drawn to the old/traditional type of management or power hierarchies that still dominate corporate culture and the boardroom. Also, I'd be more likely to support share-holder 'activism' by changing disclosure and proxy-voting rules than a quota hiring law.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I'd agree with you it's probably nothing to do with "discrimination". Maybe its wanting positions of power to reflect Euro gender demographics, which they also want in education, government, and legislators(?) Women are largely half of university students/grads and the general workforce, diversity recruitment is desirable and common, and women move up in tandem with men until they hit a plateau and start to lose traction....what's not so clear is why.
    Actually, women are awarded more than 50% of higher education degrees... in some cases by quite a bit. But I think it's very clear why women, despite being hired just as much as men, do not have careers that go as far in the corporate hierarchy. In fact, I mentioned a number of them in my post. See more below.

    European nations also have great Child Care/Cay Care/Elder Care (both public and private), generous maternity/paternity and family leave policies, subsidized continuing education and professional degree advancement, and laws for equal pay and anti-discrimination hiring. That doesn't sound like an environment where women (or men) are having to choose between career or family, or could be rejected for pregnancies or family issues. Women in healthcare and education can also strive for 'moving up the ladder' into management and leadership positions, or branching out into other sectors, so I wouldn't say 'service professions' can't mirror 'corporate professions'.
    Uhm, generous maternity leave is a good way to keep women from coming back to work. There's quite a bit of data from Germany in particular about this. Even if they do go back, an absence of 12-18 months may have done irreparable damage to their skills and career.

    As for the service/corporate thing, it's irrelevant to the discussion. I don't doubt that women can and do move up the ladder in, say, academic professions (certainly the number of tenure track female professors has skyrocketed in the last few decades, though serious social stigma still exists for the female academic who prioritizes family over work). That's irrelevant to the question of women being guaranteed near-equal representation on corporate boards. If the available pool of corporate workers is already skewed towards men (because more women are working in other sectors), why try to reflect an even distribution at the top level when it doesn't exist elsewhere? That almost certainly results in less qualified candidates being given the position.

    Not discrimination. Well, if they're talking about Boards of Directors, those positions still tend to be dominated by the grandfathers of that current generation of new workers. And they don't die off or retire at age 63 anymore, but can hang around well into their 80's. People in powerful positions are known to like, and sometimes use their position, to keep their power. That's nothing new at all. They're asking them to voluntarily invite women into the boardroom, using a threat of mandates and quotas to speed up the "percolation". My impression is that Europeans are more acceptable of that kind of tinkering.
    Okay, so board members may be old and likely to be more conservative. So what? If you're looking for 60-year old board members, you're going to find precious few women who are qualified and fit the criteria - there simply isn't a large enough population of women who embarked on the corporate management ladder 40 years ago. But I think some of your assumptions are wrong - lots of boards are full of people in their 40s and 50s, not their 60s and 70s. These people entered the workforce in a very different world from the 1950s and 1960s, and I don't doubt that they will happily value the contributions and participation of qualified women.

    I agree that Europeans are more accepting of that kind of tinkering, but they're wrong. Coercing firms (through threat or regulation) to add potentially unqualified members to their boards for some very fuzzy reasoning is uncompetitive, counterproductive, and unfair. Speeding up something that is already happening - even if the natural steady state number might be lower than their quota - is silly and a good way to make companies underperform.

    More broadly, even though there's no consensus of why women hit a plateau or glass ceiling in POP, my personal opinion is that women aren't drawn to the old/traditional type of management or power hierarchies that still dominate corporate culture and the boardroom. Also, I'd be more likely to support share-holder 'activism' by changing disclosure and proxy-voting rules than a quota hiring law.
    1. Maybe a fair point about corporate culture being anathema to some women, but why force boards to recruit women for it if women are intentionally avoiding it? There's no crime in women preferring some jobs over others - should we require that contracters hire 40% female construction workers just because they are underrepresented in the field? A hostile work environment is one thing, but this is just a question of preference.

    2. What the hell does shareholder activism et al have to do with this at all?


    Just a clarification for you and others: I personally think it's great to have a diversity of viewpoints in the workplace, ranging from different cultural and education backgrounds to different gender. I think it's good for any number of reasons, and I would welcome (qualified) women as colleagues or superiors - in fact, for the last 7 years I worked almost exclusively under several female superiors and have only the highest respect for their abilities. My broad field tends to be dominated by men, for obvious reasons, but my little subfield has a very significant number of women. I've found that the women I work with can be just as competent (or incompetent) as the men, though there are definite differences in style and interpersonal dynamics. I just don't think that women should be given some special privileged status just because they might be underrepresented in some jobs.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Actually, women are awarded more than 50% of higher education degrees... in some cases by quite a bit. But I think it's very clear why women, despite being hired just as much as men, do not have careers that go as far in the corporate hierarchy. In fact, I mentioned a number of them in my post. See more below.
    That why is more interesting to me, personally, than why some EU minister is making quota proposals.

    Uhm, generous maternity leave is a good way to keep women from coming back to work. There's quite a bit of data from Germany in particular about this. Even if they do go back, an absence of 12-18 months may have done irreparable damage to their skills and career.
    Germany is sort of a cultural outlier, from things I've read. There are distinctly pragmatic German values that are not shared by the EU as a whole, whether it's Kindergarten or monetary policy. If it wasn't discussed on this forum, then apologies for my bad memory, but if German mothers didn't return to the work force, or lost momentum in ladder-climbing---it wasn't because they hadn't kept skills/knowledge current during maternity leave.

    As for the service/corporate thing, it's irrelevant to the discussion. I don't doubt that women can and do move up the ladder in, say, academic professions (certainly the number of tenure track female professors has skyrocketed in the last few decades, though serious social stigma still exists for the female academic who prioritizes family over work). That's irrelevant to the question of women being guaranteed near-equal representation on corporate boards. If the available pool of corporate workers is already skewed towards men (because more women are working in other sectors), why try to reflect an even distribution at the top level when it doesn't exist elsewhere? That almost certainly results in less qualified candidates being given the position.
    I was responding to your mention of womens' labor force participation by sector, as if health and education don't eventually lead to corporate involvement. When it comes to why European nations craft their policies as they do, I was surmising they'd seen some level of success at federal levels, and were trying to expand that to the private sector, with a (?). After that point, it becomes political science theory vs social science theory.


    Okay, so board members may be old and likely to be more conservative. So what? If you're looking for 60-year old board members, you're going to find precious few women who are qualified and fit the criteria - there simply isn't a large enough population of women who embarked on the corporate management ladder 40 years ago. But I think some of your assumptions are wrong - lots of boards are full of people in their 40s and 50s, not their 60s and 70s. These people entered the workforce in a very different world from the 1950s and 1960s, and I don't doubt that they will happily value the contributions and participation of qualified women.
    Too many notes! It's a difficult task to compare the EU with the US, public policy with private corporate behavior, quotas with social engineering, and gender issues to boot.

    I agree that Europeans are more accepting of that kind of tinkering, but they're wrong. Coercing firms (through threat or regulation) to add potentially unqualified members to their boards for some very fuzzy reasoning is uncompetitive, counterproductive, and unfair. Speeding up something that is already happening - even if the natural steady state number might be lower than their quota - is silly and a good way to make companies underperform.
    Americans do the same kind of tinkering, too, it just takes a really long time the way our judicial process works. Maybe the crux is what's defined as "fuzzy reasoning", or who defines what's unfair or counterproductive? Yes, there are huge differences between the EU and the US, and how we approach natural states or "percolating" the process.




    2. What the hell does shareholder activism et al have to do with this at all?
    It's obviously my American-female-consumer-investor approach in how to deal with corporate boardroom appointments. I'd think you might also prefer that to what the EU minister is attempting, right? Women are the main purchasers for families, that's a fact. In our consumer-driven culture, women are more likely to boycott a product using child labor (Gap, Nike), a corporation with crappy employment standards (Walmart), or enterprises that fund discriminatory policies (Target)...if they're aware of it. That's how we can influence Board of Directors, without having to be on the board itself.

  13. #13
    Maybe this is a sneaky way to make corporate boards less stupid
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #14
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Maybe this is a sneaky way to make corporate boards less stupid
    I hear that hiring under-qualified, inexperienced people based on bigotry is a good way to do that, yeah.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The socialist mindframe privileges outcomes to processes. It's the mindframe that's holding up NHS reform in the UK, and wants to ban private schools. These people, which is to say pretty much the entire mainstream left in Europe, think justice, defined as equality, trumps all. They don't care why we might see uneven outcomes; what matters is that the outcomes are uneven and should be fixed by mandating equality from the top. Spend a year in Europe and you'll see just how prevalent this type of thinking is (both in terms of the number of people who hold it, and the number of political positions to which it extends).

    Hell, even the parts of the mainstream right in Europe pander to this line of reasoning: http://news.yahoo.com/french-sarkozy...141252760.html. If foreign products are cheaper to make than local ones, ban them. If immigrants are willing to work for less than natives, ban them. If competition leads to short-term unemployment, ban it.
    Like GGT and others on this board Europe seems to believe that individuals are not responsible for their success or failures. That's the root of their problem.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Like GGT and others on this board Europe seems to believe that individuals are not responsible for their success or failures. That's the root of their problem.
    Ug Lewk, we've all said it a thousand times; there's almost no situation where you can separate actions from the environment they exist in. People (sans astronauts) do not work in a vacuum, social or otherwise. Once you recognize this key fact, you can then shift the debate to where personal and social responsibility should part, but doing so beforehand is stupid; any results won't translate to the real world.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    I hear that hiring under-qualified, inexperienced people based on bigotry is a good way to do that, yeah.
    Sure, why not, it may make the rest of the clowns be more careful about either taking stupid risks or being too old-fashioned and boring. Let's face it, "qualification" is a fairly broad term and doesn't guarantee much. Just look at Leo Apotheker, or at the banking crisis
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  18. #18
    If qualifications don't guarantee success, let's ignore qualifications! I hope you apply the same standard for doctors and scientists.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If qualifications don't guarantee success, let's ignore qualifications!
    The latter does not follow from the former.

    I hope you apply the same standard for doctors and scientists.
    There's considerable variation in "success" in any given group of doctors and scientists, and a great deal of medical research (esp. that conducted by doctors, I presume ) is iffy. I suppose there might be much less variation and much higher quality among members of corporate boards, eg. if their greatest qualifications are being male, being connected and being survivors of some obscure and informal selection process. My impression (based purely on anecdotal evidence) is that great companies succeed in spite of their boards, not because of their boards.

    That said, please understand that my first post in this thread was not serious I don't think the proposed policy is sensible, I was just idly playing around with the idea.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #20
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Sure, why not, it may make the rest of the clowns be more careful about either taking stupid risks or being too old-fashioned and boring. Let's face it, "qualification" is a fairly broad term and doesn't guarantee much. Just look at Leo Apotheker, or at the banking crisis
    So, based on those metrics, when do you leave your current healthcare professionals to start a regimen of homeopathic treatments?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  21. #21
    1: Quotas are wrong.
    2: This should be a businesses choice, if not then a national Parliaments choice. Its none of the EU's business.
    3: Don't lump all of Europe as the same. France etc have chosen to introduce quotas, Britain has chosen not to. Again it has nothing IMO to do with the Commission, though that hasn't stopped them before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    So, based on those metrics, when do you leave your current healthcare professionals to start a regimen of homeopathic treatments?
    I'm assuming that the point you're trying to make is that "less qualified" is the same as "unqualified", "stupid", "crazy", or even "homeopathic". If that's not what you're trying to say then you may have to spell your point out in big crayoned letters because I don't get it.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #23
    Ok, let's have second-year med students perform heart surgery.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #24
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Ok, let's have second-year med students perform heart surgery.
    Well, the female ones, at least. Given that I read about a highly qualified doctor botching a surgery once, there's really no reason not to let demographic groups that are under-represented at the higher levels of doctoring try their hands at complicated surgeries.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  25. #25
    Excellent point there. In fact, each hospital should make sure that the demographics of the top specialists exactly matches the demographics of society. If women and men make up 50% of the population each, then 50% of all gynecologists should be male and 50% of all brain surgeons should be female. If Muslims make up 5% of society, they should make up 5% of each speciality. It doesn't matter if they make up a substantially smaller portion of med students. We should do the same for all other minorities, be it by sexual orientation or disability (blind people and schizophrenics make up at least 1% of the population; no excuse to not have a quota for them as well).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Ok, let's have second-year med students perform heart surgery.
    Yes or maybe a more appropriate comparison would be, "let's try to choose between two heart surgeons", but you're in full-on Loki mode now aren't you.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    (blind people and schizophrenics make up at least 1% of the population; no excuse to not have a quota for them as well).
    You know, I'd say that this is beneath you, but it isn't beneath you is it
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  28. #28
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Yes or maybe a more appropriate comparison would be, "let's try to choose between two heart surgeons"
    No, it's not. A med student is someone who may, with years more training and experience, become a heart surgeon, provided they focus on that speciality.

    Like how a manager may, with years of training, experience and focus, become a suitable board member.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    No, it's not. A med student is someone who may, with years more training and experience, become a heart surgeon, provided they focus on that speciality.

    Like how a manager may, with years of training, experience and focus, become a suitable board member.
    Yes and who here has suggested that someone who has no training, experience and focus become a board member? Never mind supervision and guidance.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #30
    A second-year med student had some training as well. It's beneath you to assume that there are no special skills and experiences that are necessary to be a good board member.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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